GKlose

In a slightly-related note, I was a little PO'd that my (then) Tenderfoot son didn't take the opportunity to clear 2C and 1C swimming requirements when he was at camp last summer. In fact, he didn't even try the swimtest, and was labeled a non-swimmer. The problem is, he isn't a non-swimmer. He swims. Quite well, in fact. It could be that he was just overwhelmed by the camp experience and decided the waterfront was beyond his limits. We're members of the local Y, so after camp was over, he was enrolled in one of their swimming classes (refresher on strokes, treading water, etc; and confidence-building). Turns out that his instructor was an Eagle Scout from his same troop (we didn't know him because we were too new to the troop); another Life scout from the troop is also a lifeguard there, and is being awarded Eagle in about a month. The nice part is the Eagle/instructor kind of like too him under his wing, and stepped through all the requirements with my son. I checked with the SM, so everyone was fine with this guy giving clearance on the swimming requirements. Everything worked out well in the end. There's a possibility we'll check with him this spring to see if he is registered (or can register) as a Swimming MB counselor. So, to echo just about everyone else that has participated in this thread. Check at the local Y, or the community pool, or wherever else you can come up with. This kind of thing isn't anything new, and there are instructors around that are quite good at stepping kids through the process. Guy

Our town has an annual town cleanup day, somewhere around the time of Earth Day each year. Volunteers choose sections of town, and pickup supplies (trash bags, gloves, water, snackage, etc -- all donated) and then return with full trash bags (hazardous waste, or large items are called in). I did this with a small group of Cub Scouts this last year, and hope to expand the horizons again this year. It doesn't take much -- drop by a public playground (or school, or senior center), and pick up trash. You could argue that this should be the responsibility of the town's public works employees, but I think they are so understaffed and underfunded, they appreciate any help they do get. The first time I participated in the townwide cleanup day, the organizer told me something interesting: when asked where we should help out, she said "I always recommend people go to an area that they live near, or frequent, or see all that time -- that way, the benefit is tangible."

Just a personal note -- I placed my name in the CO's church bulletin as the membership chair of the troop. One Sunday evening, a parishioner called me. He's the chairman of the local conservation commission and had a project in mind that would be perfect for an Eagle project (he'd sponsored Eagle projects before, so this was nothing new to him). I talked with the CC, and we put our next Eagle candidate in touch with the chairman. They've sinced talked, and I haven't followed up with either (I don't feel that's my place -- once I heard they've talked, I stepped aside -- I just wanted to make sure the chairman hadn't been forgotten about). It will be nice to see that all come together. Also -- a district roundtable was held at an adjacent community's boathouse, where they are hoping to build the program even larger. At the roundtable, the director of the boathouse told us she has some Eagle-worthy projects she'd like to see done. I took that back to the troop committee, and we even talked about some troop service time there, such as a spring cleanup or something. I would guess that every troop has a different policy about how the process is supposed to take place. But at the very least, a Life scout approaching a possible project host is something that has to take place. They both have to decide whether or not they are on the same page, right? Preliminary work. You can't really expect a scout to commit to something he doesn't really understand. I think initiative is a good sign, and I don't think our troop would have problems with a Life scout making preliminary contact like that, and perhaps check out a few possibilities before committing to any particular one. Guy

I'm in the process of putting together something similar for our troop (the open house is coming up Monday evening). My package is a lot like what kbandit describes, except for maybe a Troop policy sheet (if I were to describe troop policy it would be along the lines of "we're so laid back, don't sweat the small stuff"). I've asked our DE for some kind of glossy brochure if he has something, but other than that, I have a handout from a BSA link: http://www.scouting.org/media/FactSheets/~/media/legacy/assets/media/factsheets/02%20503.ashx I also have a contact sheet, with a brief description of the troop, a calendar page, an application and a medical form. I'd like to add a summer camp page, if I get that done by Monday, and I'm also working on a uniform/equipment 1-pager that also lists sources, such as the local scout shops and online sources. All in a folder, with a nice label on the front. I probably paid $40 out of pocket for supplies and photocopying. I had my wife take a look at it, and she was the one that suggested the uniform and equipment page ("parents want to know what they'll need to buy" -- and how much it will cost them), but I also don't want to give away the fact that when we do a crossover for AoL-ers, we'll be giving them a handbook and a troop neckerchief, and after they join, a couple of troop t-shirts. So my page is kind of vague about that. The past couple of years, there have been Troop adults (along with their scouts) involved at crossovers at B&G banquets. I'm going to be suggesting that the SPL drive that this year -- we'll see what happens.

It would be my comments that made DeanRx say this: "If there are 8-10 adults standing around "bored out of their mind" while the scouts are doing something cool, then I might suggest the adults need to engage and get involved in whatever "cool" thing the scouts are doing." The functions I've been talking about specifically are Webelos-related (Webelos Woods, Webelos Arrow of Light Weekend, and a Readyman Day), and events were specifically set up for Webelos involvement, not adult involvement. I think it is wholly-appropriate for a Webelos Den to function together, much like a Boy Scout patrol would, when participating in an activity. If a den leader, or at least one other adult is around -- or go crazy, and have two-deep -- that leaves every other parent there with pretty much nothing to do except talk with each other. That's fine, but after a few hours of that, the novelty may just wear off. I've been to these functions multiple times as my kids have filtered through the program. I can definitely see what works and what doesn't (example: Readyman Day, where Webelos were herded from place to place where someone would seat them and then talk at them for almost an hour, and then they would be herded somewhere else and the cycle repeated...for the Webelos, it meant several hours sitting around and listening, and towards the end of the day, getting chastised for being antsy). Cub Scouts may definitely be parent-child oriented, but Webelos is definitely different. This clearly isn't a case where the adults need to engage, and in fact I would argue it is best for everyone involved that the adults disengage. In any case, in our district, I was part of a training event that happened to coincide with a Cub event. Our experiment went quite well, and we learned something along the way. I'm sure we'll do it again in the future. Guy

Wait a minute, I'm not saying it's gay! I'm saying what if that's what you heard... During marching band season, we usually didn't have a problem with football players. We routinely put in several hours more a week than they did. Now, basketball season was a different story. Our "pep band" only practiced a couple of times a week. I suppose that's because we didn't have to worry about "drill", and we didn't have weekend parades and competitions.

That's funny, that's not how I interpreted it at all... (apologies in advance for editing, to get to salient points) "Sports/band programs asserting their superiority over Scouting, and demanding higher levels of commitment...superiority of sports/band argument, which is at least unsubstantiated and some of us feel is total bunk." Yes, they do demand higher (or maybe just "high") levels of commitment, attendance-wise and perhaps preparation-wise. But they aren't necessarily asserting a superiority over Scouting. I think you're reading that into what is being talked about, and it certainly isn't anything that I have said. And if you think that "unsubstantiated and total bunk" applies to the "superiority complex", that's fine, but that's not what has been going on here. But if you think the value of non-Scouting programs is unsubstantiated and total bunk, then I think once again you are being dismissive. "It's perfectly OK for band to demand two hours a day, 5 days a week plus weekends at 100% commitment, but it's completely unreasonable for a troop to expect 50% attendance 1 night a week and stayin' for the whole event on a campout." Once again, that isn't anything I've said or implied. However, the "attendance rate" issue is certainly a hot topic among Scouting circles. Some unit leaders believe that is absolutely the right thing to do, while others feel that is an artificial constraint that certainly isn't supported by the national organization. "Just don't overstate the case with codswallop about teachin' leadership/character/grades etc. being the reason." And once again, and I believe that might be me you are implying, that is nothing that I said or inferred. What I did say, repeatedly I think, is please don't be dismissive of the values that these other programs do provide. I've said that I think it was all part of my package. If you don't respect my opinion that's fine, but please stop attacking it, especially by inferring things I haven't said. As I suggested in another post, just think how you, Beav, would feel if a college recruiter dismissed being an Eagle Scout as fluff. Or, how do you feel when you hear a youth not interested in Scouting because "that's gay." Or what if a parent dismissed the entire "character development, citizenship and personal fitness" aims by saying "so what, it's just a bunch of camping...and merit badges seem so lame." A few years back, I was rankled by a forum post (on an unrelated forum to this one) dismissing Scouting as being "para-military". Seems like a colossal mis-characterization to me. Why do some non-scouting activities demand full participation? Because they feel they need to, and because they can. Could scout units do the same thing? Sure. Go ahead. See how that works out for you. I have absolutely no idea what I would have done if faced with that kind of dilemma when I was a scout. I also don't know what would happen to membership numbers now if that were the case. Guy

Delaware Water Gap national park? I did some quick looking into this for our troop; while I haven't been there, I've been told there is incredible beauty there. Found a couple of different places to stay, including one with rustic cabins. You could even hike a section of the A-T while there.

"They're all valuable. ... But they don't hold a candle to Scoutin'." (please excuse the modest editing) Beav', I have a different vantage point, given a different set of experiences from my youth, to the point that I will reiterate my view: for me, it was all part of the package. I can't really separate things out and say that one was more "candle holding" than another. This entire thread started with the bemoaning of the fact that there are certain youth that treat Scouting with second-class status, in terms of their extra-curriculars. I understand some of the compromises that were involved, because I had to live through them myself. Just because I chose one activity over another on a Friday night, for example, doesn't mean that I didn't love one activity more than the other (or another, when there were multiple conficts). Am I any less of a "citizen of character" because I made certain choices? Kind of a pointless exercise, to think about that in this point of my life. Am I perhaps more of a citizen of character because I was faced with more choices, personally, ethically and morally, because of the activities I chose? I don't know. I really don't sit around and contemplate that sort of thing. But let me get it back to the original topic: why do some Scouts place other activities at a higher priority? I've given, I think, plenty of examples from my own experiences and viewpoint. I was hoping that would add some insight to some of those that don't understand when Scouts choose something else, when faced with choices. I'm also coming away with the feeling that my viewpoint is not being respected. Labeling "fluff", belittling the idea of band grades, and dismissing the idea maybe a band program does teach values will do that to me. I would guess that had I given examples about varsity sports (of which I have no personal knowledge), I may have faced the same thing. So, that's all fine. It doesn't really bother me. I asked for, and received, a pretty considerate response from Barry. He did a nice job of supporting his view (and I appreciate your support of the same view), and I have no quibble with that. I do feel a little put out about his comment "the way the discussion was going reminded me of some of my discussions with my ADD son", but I don't think he intended for it to do that. I would hope that because I am participating on this forum, and volunteering at the unit and district level, that it is pretty obvious how I feel about Scouting. When my sons are faced with similar dilemmas to what I faced, I'm hoping that I can provide a point of view that will help them understand the outcomes of their choices. But what I can't say is that one particular activity is so much more important than another. There are some kids that are raised to only participate in activities at which they are successful; one reason why I've stressed musical training with my sons is because it is the one activity that doesn't come easily to them, and they must work at it to succeed (they aren't prodigies by any means, but at their ages they are fairly advanced, and have remarkable musical aptitude, perhaps more than they understand they have). It's not that they don't work at, and succeed, in Scouting. It just comes relatively easy to them. Guy

As a side note, earlier this evening it occurred to me there is, or was, a rather high profile Scouting music group: the Madison Scouts, a DCI (Drum Corps International) drum and bugle corps. I'm not sure about them now (and don't really care to look it up at the moment) because I don't follow DCI. I vaguely recall a conversation years ago that talked about the Madison Scouts organization, but I don't remember details now: it may have been an all-male organization, organized as a troop (albeit one that drew from a large area, because someone from my district would drive up, across 3 states, to get to weekend rehearsals -- he, obviously, loved DCI!). It may have eventually morphed into a co-ed Explorer Post. I'll have to look it up sometime -- at one time, it was a pretty big thing in the DCI world.

Sorry -- I should have been more specific. There are at least two OSU's, and I was talking about one of the others: Ohio State.

Barry, it's not about comparing mission statements and doing a "mine is bigger" check There isn't a single "varsity sports" consortium, or "youth music" set of guidelines that would provide the sort of thing you're looking for. I could maybe dig out a mission statement for Little League, or Pop Warner, or maybe for Interlochen Arts Academy, but I don't necessarily think it would prove anything. But having a mission statement, or not having one, doesn't really say anything about the quality of a youth program or what it teaches. My issue with the "moral high ground" statement is this: I don't think a "but my program teaches those values so much better" statement means that a program has exclusive ownership for teaching those values. I thought we were discussing values -- you'd narrowed it a little, I think, to the idea of values for developing character. I tried pointing out that is a very broad notion. We can narrow the definition to something that would absolutely prove your point, but I've told you I do understand where you're coming from and I respect your viewpoint. I've tried, perhaps unsuccessfully, to explain that I don't think it is quite so clearcut. I have a different vantage point than you. I'm not trying to belittle what the Scouting program is, or isn't. I've said that it is very important to me, or else I wouldn't be right here, right now. On the other hand I really wish you, and Beav', and OGE, wouldn't take your own simplistic view of other youth programs and then use that to support an argument of "my program teaches those values so much better than ...". And I'm sorry -- I really didn't want to flog the dying horse. But if you'd like to talk, point by point, about various values and methods how they are taught, I might perhaps be able to add something intelligent from my point of view. An example: take leadership. SPL/PL and patrol members are not unlike the way some marching bands are organized with drum majors and section leaders and sections. Drum majors can and do go to special camps to learn their unique sets of skills, they are the public-facing front of the group. Section leaders have real responsibility within the units (do you want them listed?). After all, marching bands are descended from military units, right? Of course, there's no TLT (that I know of) that the National Marching Band Society (if there is one) trots out for training section leaders in marching bands. From what I've heard about TLT, though, that might be a good thing :-). So maybe that's passed down by tradition, folklore and tribal knowledge. But lack of a standardized leadership development curriculum doesn't mean that leadership development in those units is either 1) an invalid process or 2) less effective at fostering a sense of leadership in a youth member than some other program. The most incredible display of Esprit d'Corps I've ever seen was at a rehearsal of the OSU marching band. Any unit, scouting, military, varsity team, band or otherwise, would probably see a display like that and have chills running down their spine. Guy

Oh, I know that an outdoor program isn't necessary for Venturing. I was just having fun contemplating the idea of using the structure of a Venturing Crew to organize a community band, and at the same time add an outdoor program to it for a fun aspect. Like John's Breckenridge example. Or, "hey, not only do we play concerts in the summer, but we also go canoeing" and stuff like that. -- Beav', I think you are underestimating the complexity of what goes on with a young musician and the groups that he or she performs with, and the values it teaches and develops. You've taken a somewhat simplistic approach in what you've listed.

Music conservatories at the post-secondary level are a whole other story, as far as I'm concerned. I could go on for hours about how many of them do a disservice to young musicians, and I would never knowingly encourage a young musician to consider that a first step on a career path. There was some famous jazz musician, maybe Phil Woods, who said (more or less) that he wished a college would fill a bus with incoming music students, drive them around for several hours, have them play a gig, load them and transport them again, and keep repeating the process for several weeks. Then have them decide whether or not they wanted to continue as a student. It takes a certain makeup to be able to thrive at that level, where it is strictly dog-eat-dog. I wouldn't wish that "Lord of the Flies" scenario on anyone. But that's how they filter out those who want to be the absolute best. (my undergraduate work was done at a school with a notorious conservatory program; I took a small handful of classes there, and participated in a couple of their ensembles)

Sidebar here: John, interesting point. I'm starting to half-think about the topic "if I were to develop a Venturing Crew, what would I do?" while in the past, I've also contemplated starting a community band. Then last week, those topics collided together with me. I suddenly realized there is no reason why a youth-oriented community band couldn't be organized as a Crew. (the epiphany came when I realized that when I was at the '73 National Jamboree, I saw a music group perform made up of all scouts -- at least I don't think they were an explorer post -- and I remember thinking "wow, I wish I could be in a group like that") I have a couple of years to think it over, before my young Scouts will start entering their Venturing-eligible ages, but offhand I don't see a reason why it wouldn't work. It might even be kind of fun, even with trying to organize an interesting outdoor program around a performing arts group. And no, American Pie "Band Camp" had nothing to do with my idea . Guy

Barry -- thanks for the considered reply. I've read it about three times now, and I'll admit I'm a bit overwhelmed by it. I don't want to quibble, and there are places where I could try to isolate points, but that wouldn't be fair, or entertaining, or useful. I do respect your point of view, and I'm not disagreeing with you, I think I just perhaps have a different vantage point given my choices compared to you and others. But I would like to point out that "developing character" is a fairly broad notion. In various parts, you list moral and ethical decision making, think, choose and act independently, a program for developing citizens of character and leaders of integrity (and many other things) -- but I would still point out that Scouting doesn't have a monopoly on those and doesn't have a "moral high ground" in owning those values. There are certainly other values such as teamwork, leadership, discipline, integrity, commitment and others that are fostered in many other youth programs. Which of those values are more important to a developing youth? Which ones make more of a difference to a young adult going forward? I don't think there is an answer to that question. And yes, maybe I came from a good band program, and your kids had an awful one, but I don't see that as germane to the argument. There are certainly Scout programs that have lost their True North, and I think we'd all agree that doesn't really reflect on the nature of the program, it reflects on the choices of those who implement it. Kid sports programs are typically run by volunteers (many untrained, in my experience), and sure there are some coaches who stray from their True North. I'm thinking of a recent example from my youngest's 4th grade basketball league, where league rules specifically state "equal playing time" for all team members, while there was one coach who was concerned enough about winning a game that his best players were magically always on the floor. Seen that over and over. Bring it up to the guys that run the league, and you're seen as a whiner. I also think it would be quite strange, indeed, if relatively-untrained volunteers ran a typical school band program. Some of them would probably think that the job is nothing more than asking everyone to show up, then stand in front of them to wave a baton. Single-point leadership? No way, not if it's done right. There are sections, with section leaders that have real responsibilities. Citizens of character. Leaders of integrity. I'm fond of the lists that BSA periodically publishes of famous Eagles (along with some that didn't get that far). I think it goes to show something, and is deserving of respect. But I'd have to play Devil's Advocate here too. How many famous non-Scouts are there? How many were merely members of Skull and Bones, or just high school athletes, or maybe just an accomplished musician as a youth? How many of our skilled politicians were nothing more than debate club geeks? I'm just saying I can't separate it all out, and perhaps give weight to one over the other. Looking back, I had a great experience as a Scout, as a musician and as a student-scholar (and I still draw on all three). I don't think there was any one of those things that was more important than the other, and maybe they were great experiences because I was the kind of "citizen of character" that tends to have fulfilling experiences. Scouting *is* important to me, or else I wouldn't be here right now, and be associated with a unit and a district. I've helped guide my kids, and I am proud of them for pursuing their interests in Scouting, athletics, music, and video game playing . Not that I think this topic is anywhere close to being a dead horse, but I'll agree to stop flogging it. Guy

Now, labeling band as a "fluff" class is what really pisses me off. Just as much as someone who has pre-judged a band grade to be nothing more than an easy grade. In my own firsthand experience, it was anything but, and I've already listed the reasons why. Just think how you would feel if a college recruiter dismissed the concept of being an Eagle Scout as fluff. For the record, HS electives are not fluff. But there are school districts, like the one I'm in, that will calculate grade point averages and class rankings two ways, one with only core courses, and one with all grades, including electives. But I would guess that the two pretty much track the same way, statistically-speaking. Personally, I would never dismiss anything that takes serious dedication, commitment and discipline as nothing more than fluff. Guy

"First let me say, all things being equal, I dont believe that those other activities even come close to developing a better direction for the rest of a boys life than scouting...Scouting far and away is better...My philosophy of direction when I was a SM was to develop our scouts into citizens of character and leaders of integrity." Barry, I don't want to come across as a pain, or a contrarian, but maybe as a Devil's Advocate in the spirit of good debate. But as I said before, this is the kind of value judgment that I couldn't make, having personally been in this same boat. So what I'd like to ask you is to support your statement. Why do you think that Scouting is far and away better? You haven't really given a reason why you believe the way you do. I feel, as others have pointed out, that Scouting doesn't have a monopoly on certain values. In fact, the very first lecture I received on integrity came from my junior high school band director, delivered to our entire band. Integrity, leadership development, teamwork, citizenship, character development (I could probably run through the entire set of aims and methods)...those kinds of things pop up all over the place. As a youth, I really appreciated the "outward boundness" of my troop's high adventure experiences because I learned that despite being a non-athletic kid, I had no physical limits that weren't imposed by my own brain. I would think a good coach would be able to foster that same thing with young athletes. Scouting is, arguably, the best known and oldest (100 years!) youth leadership development program. But I really would like to hear your supporting argument. Thanks... Guy

Lisabob - I think you hit the nail on the head. That's what I meant when I said it's all part of the package (Scouts/band/sports/etc). Lots of kids are exposed to all sorts of things starting from toddler-hood on up. My two sons have been in various music classes since they were very young, and we'd see all sorts of parents drop in for a semester or two and then drop out, and then move on to dance classes, or gymnastics at the Y, or whatever. I considered them "survey" parents, searching for breadth in exposure, while we were choosing more depth in one area (with balance being added by "surveying" other things). I don't consider either method more valid than the other. I'm happier now that my kids are older and are able to express their preferences. That has it's dark side too -- my 2C son may have the desire to become an Eagle Scout. But my W2 son has already told me that he doesn't think Scouts are for him (he's finishing up AoL as soon as he can because he doesn't enjoy Cubs any more), and that he'll probably be more interested in sports. I've been trying to use every "Jedi mind trick" I can think of to try and convince him that being a Scout will be a good idea too, but so far he's just showing reluctance.

"Im different from you in that I want a boy to struggle with tough choices because that is how he develops the skills of discernment." I would say this mis-characterizes my viewpoint. I said that I wouldn't want to make a Scout's choice *more difficult* by placing constraints (I debated with myself about using the phrase "artificial constraints"). Tough choices are already there -- the kind of thing I'm talking about, as an example, would be placing restrictions on advancement because of a troop-imposed attendance rate. That's just one example. It's something that unit scouters have control over. Every adolescent faces tough choices, and I am certainly not one to try and shield my own kids from that kind of thing. I gave the example of my 2C son, in one of his first scheduling dilemmas ever, choosing a Klondike Derby over a basketball game. The only thing I did was try to help him see both sides of the issue (he's missing a game, the team picture, and he could attend both, if he was willing to skip dinner with his troop that evening). He made the choice, and I'm supporting him with it (meanwhile, while I'm not planning on overnighting with the troop, I'm dropping by for part of the day, and I will still be going to the game because I keep score for the team). Guy

I'm sorry, Barry, but this kind of value judgment is not something I would make: "Scouting prospectively has the most potential to have a positive effect on all the other activities." I'm saying that as a band geek, a Scout, and someone who did pretty well academically and participated in a couple of special programs for advanced math/science students. I suppose if I had excelled at team sports, I would have participated more there too. I think it's all part of the package: for example, I don't think I can qualify it by saying "I am who I am primarily because I was a Scout" (or a musician, or whatever). I am who I am because I did all of that (and it wasn't easy to balance everything!). Would my life have been better or would I be better off now if I had concentrated solely on Scouts? I can't say that either. It's been pointed out before, but a common trait among Eagle Scouts is they are usually well-rounded young men. But I think of it in terms like this: is a young man well-rounded because of all the activities he participates in, or does he participate in all sorts of activities because of how well-rounded he is? As a Scouter, I personally would not want to make a Scout's choices more difficult by placing constraints. This is all kind of being hammered home for me because of a University of Scouting event this last weekend; our CC attended a session on boards of review. Afterward, he said to me "did you know that some troops have mandatory attendance rates and uniform inspections?". This is going on right now, in our council. In one of the sessions I attended I got the "but our troop has much higher standards than that" line. As a side note: both my 2C son and my W2 son are playing basketball this season, and our town usually has a pretty serious approach to kid sports. This coming weekend, my 2C son is attending the local Klondike Derby, but he's missing a Saturday basketball game. On the other hand, he could sort of accommodate both: the game is at 6pm on Saturday, and I could pick him up for the game and return him afterward, with the effect of missing dinner with his troop. He decided to skip the game. I don't mind so much because two of his coaches, and their sons, were out last weekend for a ski trip, and another coach and his son are missing the games this weekend because of a ski trip. It's a pretty clear message that family trips trump sports in those families. My son's PL, who plays in a different league (same town), is missing the Klondike Derby because on his team if you miss practice, you ride the bench in games. Guy

"Music has points that are valuable, but overall, I don't see how being a musician will give a boy better direction for the rest of his life." I responded re: sports/band/scouts conflicts in the other thread, and my own experience was like what others have posted in this thread. Not only was band a huge commitment, it was also tied to honor's band credit, which (contrary to popular belief) was not an easy grade. There was pretty much a zero-tolerance policy to get an A. But the statement above kind of puzzles me, especially because I am still an active musician. Granted most of my classmates dropped their instruments after high school, but a few played during their college years, an even smaller group kept playing, and a very small handful became professional musicians (although I have played professionally, I wouldn't label myself a professional). I've also contemplated why I continue to be a musician, at considerable time and expense (I can't begin to count how many weddings and other gigs I've worked -- "playing" and "having fun" aren't usually operative words on most professional gigs -- where my net has been negative). I didn't really come up with a better answer than "it's just what I do" or that "I don't do this because it is fun, I do this because I feel compelled to do it, as if a higher power is involved". Back when I was a kid, I didn't do it because I was looking for direction for the rest of my life. I wasn't participating in Scouting because I was looking for direction for the rest of my life either. Character development, citizenship and personal fitness. Did I only work towards these aims because of the Scout troop I was involved with then (and the one, and the district, I am involved with now)? Or is this just part of the "stuff" I have because of who I am and where I've been and how I was raised? Citizenship? Maybe this is stretching the definition a little, but I've played countless community events, fundraisers for charity and that sort of thing. My least favorites are dinners where food isn't provided for the band (OMG! $20 extra per band member?), even though the band is donating 6+ hours of time (travel, setup/teardown, etc) for everyone's entertainment. Just as a humorous note, anyone that doesn't believe that music has a personal fitness component should see this page on auditions for the Ohio State University marching band: http://tbdbitl.osu.edu/?action=a030 (marching band is about as aerobic as you can get!). Also catch the part where they say summer sessions aren't mandatory -- but read between the lines on that one. Anyone who really wants to make the band isn't going to be skipping "voluntary" summer sessions. Guy

I had a similar discussion in another forum under a completely different topic, but the background is the same. I was one of those band kids, and there were times when it was really tough to participate in band and Scouts because of conflicts (this was high school band -- I can't really address middle school or elementary school band conflicts because, in my case, neither of those groups had Friday night or weekend commitments). High school band was sort of the equivalent of varsity sports -- there were audition requirements, rehearsals sometimes took more than 3 hours a day, counting the hour in class during the day, and on top of that there would be individual practice time and private lessons. But there was also grade credit for Honor's Band. While a non-band person would think that was an easy grade, it really wasn't. To get an A, one pretty much had to have perfect attendance, in and out of school. There were times that were fairly intense, such as Fridays: school until 2pm, marching band practice until 5pm, playing at a football game, getting home after 11pm, and then getting up early the day to catch a bus to play a parade somewhere that morning, and then go to a competition that afternoon. During my high school years, that meant I did occasionally miss Scout meetings -- in fact, get this -- the band director for years complained about certain relatively strong musicians who chose varsity sports over marching band (for example). I'm sure their grades suffered for the choice. But then the band director's own son comes along, and is a fairly good baseball player. One of our extra-curricular bands was moved to a Monday night rehearsal instead of right after school so his own kid could make the baseball team. However, that moved the band to the same time as my Scout meeting. I didn't like that, but what could I do? I had to pick and choose, which was not a position I wanted to be in. Sports teams, like bands, don't function well when there are attendance issues. So neither do patrols. A kid can't possibly play fall football and participate in marching band, so he makes a choice. Add a third activity (Scouts) and force another choice. If Scout units had a zero-tolerance policy on absences, what would that do to membership? I suppose it comes down to priorities. If I would have had to choose between Scouts and band, I don't know what I would have done. Lots of my classmates no longer are musicians (and to be fair, most of the Scouts in my troop are no longer involved in Scouting either), but I'm different. I still actively play (and I still have conflicts, too). Guy

I special-ordered some custom numerals a couple of months ago. I seem to recall being asked if I wanted to add an anniversary strip. There isn't any harm calling National Supply and asking. The woman who took my order was very friendly.

There was a thread this last summer, as I recall, that talked about an unmarried DE and his GF sharing camp quarters.