GKlose

"I do not think they would like him to bring his silver trumpet on a campout" Understood, and it makes sense -- but :-) With many young musicians, serious ones most likely, they have two instruments. One that they use for marching band season, and one that's used for concert band. The marching band one that sees all the action on muddy football fields is sometimes the student-model instrument they played in elementary and middle school. The concert band instrument is sometimes a "step-up" or pro-level model instrument, and, at least in my case, virtually never sees use during marching band season. BTW, and I'm not trying to be a wise guy here, but "silver" is most likely nickel-plated, and isn't always an indication of value or worth. There are brand-new $200+ student models (ranging up to $1000+) and pro models are, maybe, $1500 and up. Step-up models, which have few fans among experienced trumpeters, range through that middle ground, average price of maybe $900 or so. Some pro trumpeters have been gravitating towards unfinished brass instruments for a long while (but it hasn't caught on with everyone). (I bought a student model trumpet for my youngest, about 3 months ago).

A budget bugle can be found for $20 to $40, maybe even less. I'm a brass player, and I've seen them sold by my favorite online source, Woodwind/Brasswind. But -- a trumpet is a bugle (in the "harmonic series" sense). It just has some added valves. And although I'm not a Drum and Bugle Corps expert, the bugles they use have valves too (with some kind of limitation I don't understand). So, the bottom line is that all bugles calls can be played on a trumpet or cornet (open; or with a valve combination depressed, in a different key). There is a single pamphlet for both Music and Bugling merit badges that lists a bunch of bugle calls. Side note: Music MB is very straightforward for a young instrumentalist to do (I'm a counselor), if you'd like to encourage him to check it out. Guy

First of all, thanks to everyone for the practical advice -- I've been looking for a tent as well, and this information really helps (especially the pointers to discounted stuff). Twocubdad: I've been eyeballing the Pinnacle/Apex tents, but as I recall, it has a strange fly system, where one side of the tent isn't covered. To me, that says the nylon on that side is coated, and I would expect problems with condensation. Have you found that to be the case? I'm up in the northeast, and I must have really saturated breath because I am regularly plagued by condensation drips (even on uncoated nylon in a tent that otherwise should have very good ventilation). Thanks... Guy

One of my brothers was a real fan of mixed metaphors, so in his honor I want to add: Yes, the squeaky wheel does get the oil, but one washes the other, and then it's as easy as falling off a log. We can always burn that bridge when we come to it. (or something like that) Guy :-)

I guess I have a slightly (only slightly!) different opinion than most...a new, crossed-over scout is 10-1/2 or older. Are all 10-1/2 to 11 year olds at the same maturity level? No, of course not. But who's to say that moving on to an older age range activity, like Boy Scouts, is not exactly what they need? From my point of view, it is important to crossover new scouts early enough that they can get a few nights of camping under their belt, along with several patrol and troop meetings, before summer camp. If a troop is actively discouraging young scouts at summer camp (as ScoutNut described) then they're really not building a thriving program, are they? Guy

I've been told, but I don't know this history personally (I can't recall if it was a year or two when I was a Webelos, circa 1970), that the Webelos program went from one year to two years, and is now in its present state, where the second year is optimized to finish by the standard Blue and Gold banquet time in February. In fact, the second year does have a much greater emphasis on connecting with a Boy Scout troop (visit a meeting, have an SM conference, visit a Boy Scout outdoor activity, etc). One of the problems, as I see it, is that some Cub Scout packs treat the Blue and Gold banquet as an end of year banquet. *Every* pack in my town does that. They even hold awards until the banquet. These packs even "suspend" pack operations until the next fall, so the B&G becomes a virtual "end of the program year". Out of the four packs in town, the one we're in has moved up its B&G to the end of March. So after starting late, in October (because September is "round up" month), the pack will be finished up (for the program year) before April. That's a six-month program! With these guys, it's all about the advancement (let's get them their Tiger/Wolf/Bear/Webelos Badge, then we've done our job). I can see why my son wants to move on -- the pack doesn't have much fun! Guy

Hmmm, I don't really have a recommendation, per se, because with 15 you probably have a full spectrum of kids. But, in my case, we did things slightly differently than what is "normal". My son, a 4th grader who turned 10 in September, started Webelos with a small group of 4 total. We could sense that he was losing interest in Cub Scouts, so we asked him if he was willing to do the work in order to finish Arrow of Light by this spring. He said yes, and he is finishing up the last activity badge right now. He did quite a few things with another den (a 2nd-year Webelos group) as well as things with his own den. They both met at the same time and same place. He is mature enough to feel comfortable with both groups. He seems anxious to move on to Boy Scouts in his older brother's troop. So that's one option you have -- you could split along age and maturity lines and take one den all the way through Arrow of Light this year -- and both dens can still cooperate on many activities. You might also want to make contact with a 2nd-year Webelos den (if your pack has one) and it is always a good idea to get Webelos in contact with a scout troop (might help with arranging Webelos camping trips, etc). Guy

My family has been involved with three different packs, and all three had a single CC/CM running the show (and yes, I know that's not proper!). I'm not sure how the chartering paperwork handled it... Of course, if I were recommending to someone to start a pack, or to look for a pack to join, I'd suggest looking for one with a strong committee in place. In any case, I would think it would make sense that CC and CM training be two sides of the same coin, so that they could each see that they have specific roles and responsibilities.

I understand the sentiment (and I'm part of the district committee, along with being active in a troop). In general, I think our unit has very little contact with the district other than the advancement committee, at EBoR time, and the activities committee, for district activities. For the last couple of years, we haven't even had a UC -- now someone new is assigned, and it's like there's a little confusion of "who's assisting who". I see both sides from the district committee view, but at the unit level I'm getting a sense of "just who exactly is this guy, and why do we need him?"

I was doing a similar search about a year ago -- and I was specifically looking for one with a hydration bladder, and clips to hold the hose. On the larger side, about 2000 cu in, and a good waist belt and sternum strap. I too was frustrated after using ill-fitting daypacks for years, with inadequate waist belts. Needed a longer torso and a larger waist belt, in general. So I settled on a CamelBak Alpine Explorer, which I bought from Campmor: http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___67739 The Kelty Redwing was my second choice, but I was looking for something a bit smaller: http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___43115 Guy

No, Stosh, "raised waffles" have nothing to do with thickness. It has to do with leavening. They are also called "yeast waffles" or sometimes "overnight waffles". They are sublime. The perfect waffle batter for the perfect waffle. Much better than anything descended from pancake batter or leavened with baking powder or soda. Honestly. I stake my reputation as a Certified Foodie on it. Here's an example recipe (but not the one I use -- I don't have that one memorized): http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/food/views/Raised-Waffles-40050 Guy

I don't know if this will help, but I suggested to the troop committee having what I called an "eScribe" to take care of the troop website. I had grand designs on this kid also assisting the "feeder pack" with developing their own website, and also adding us to the CO website, but that part hasn't happened yet.

LisaNJ -- your experience is not unlike my experience; and I think you're handling it the best way you can. After having been in the program for several years now, I can tell that there is quite a high percentage of parents that expect their sons to get badges whether they have 100% participation or not. At every step along the way, there is a certain portion of stuff that is supposed to be done at home. You can only ask so many times for parents to do that stuff with their Cubs. Then there are a certain percentage of parents that will go ahead and sign their kids off anyway. Saw this, this year: Cub moving into a Webelos den. Had a whole series of belt loops from before. Den leader told them, sorry, but if you want to use any of those towards an Activity Badge, they have to be re-earned. But they weren't. Parent just signs off Webelos anyway (these were sports belt loops for Sportsman Activity badge). When I came back to the program, I volunteered as a Tiger Cub den leader. First thing I did was read through my son's handbook and make a list. Mapped out a plan to step through everything. I did that all the way through. Most parents, I've found, don't even look at the handbook, even when you tell them "take a look at page blah-blah-blah and work on this before the next den meeting, and then you'll have finished blah-blah-blah." Guy

Stosh, pancakes and waffles are two different food items! Just because both are maple syrup delivery vehicles, it doesn't place them in the same category. (for the record, waffle batter typically has more fat in it, which helps them become crispier -- but for really sublime waffles, one has to look for a "raised waffle" recipe, which isn't anything like a pancake batter) Guy

"I guess if a new boy is entering into a boy-led unit that the first contact is by the one who is really running the show. That's a message my boys want to show the new boys from the git-go." I think that's really admirable. I started another thread about my experiences at a Webelos open house last night. I had one small role to play in it, which was to take parents aside (so they wouldn't hover), and talk to them about our program. Ideally, I would have loved for one of the older scouts to do that while I sat behind him and offered assistance when necessary. Officially, our troop would be considered "in transition" which to me is a code phrase that "we're moving extremely slowly back to being boy-led." I was with "prospective parents" so I didn't monitor what was going on with the troop. The SM and two ASMs were there, though, and from the "happy noises" I heard, I think it went well. I wish that our Scouts would get it, but I don't think they are thinking that way yet. The SM and his SPL-son were running a little late, so some Scouts were standing around while a few Webelos trickled in (6 total showed up, out of maybe 14 in town, by my estimates). I didn't want to have to do it, but I went over to a couple of the Scouts and asked if they had a game they could come up with to draw in the Webelos while they were waiting for the SPL to show up. They said "sure!" and then promptly did nothing. I noticed Webelos drifting towards them, and then drifting away. After a couple of minutes, I noticed a large group of younger scouts congregated, including my 12-yr-old, and I approached them quietly. I said something along the lines of "guys, the general idea is that we're trying to recruit Webelos, so can you go introduce yourselves and try and make them feel welcome?" A couple of them caught on and did so, but most didn't. I suppose that's our failing for not preparing them properly, but I don't think we could have been any more clear: it's an open house, and we're trying to recruit Webelos! Eventually things started rolling, but it was a very rocky start. Guy

Just some observations from our Webelos open house, which was held last night. About welcome kits: I'd put together some folders, and when I was talking to parents of prospective "crossovers" I showed them the folders and let them look at pages. But I'd asked if rather than handing them over at that moment if I could present the folder to their sons. I did just that, and in almost every case the scout immediately handed the folder over to his parent. My wife had suggested I add a page to the folder that included information about uniforms and equipment. She specifically said "I'm going to want to know what we will need to get." When I explained the sheet to prospective parents, I got vigorous nodding as if to agree. The sheet specifically mentioned uniforms in our troop (the centennial uniform, our troop neckerchief, and that we have a "Class B" t-shirt we wear), the 10 essentials, and then listed the additions needed for overnight camping with us. Nothing groundbreaking. I included an application with the folder, and I used a line I heard last year with my older son: "even if you don't join our troop, please join a troop!". With parents, I went one small step farther: "this application can be used to join any troop." Thinking back about it right now, I probably should have showed them the box to check for AoL recipients and that it was kind of like a transfer, more than it is a new registration. I sent out, via email, invitations to every Cubmaster in town, and each of the Webelos II den leaders, three dens in total. I think there are about 14 Webelos II scouts in town this year, total. I sent a reminder this last week. I got exactly zero responses. My younger son came, and five others showed up. I think the lesson is that next year I probably should make phone calls to invite people. In general, though, I wish everyone were better with email. I tend to not be at home in the evenings, and email is a far more efficient method of communication. When the meeting opened up, the "prospective crossovers" merged in with the rest of the troop. I pulled the parents aside, to address them separately. All of the meeting happened at my back and I couldn't observe. From what I heard, though, everything was going very well. For my part (by the way, I am the membership guy on our troop committee), I went through the folder with parents, and gave them a brief rundown of the program. I stressed that Cub Scouts is a parent-child program and that Boy Scouts is not, and that it is all about developing personal growth. I also stressed, because I sensed confusion about this last year when my older son was transitioning, that once they crossover, their son is done with Cub Scouts. He's able to attend Boy Scout meetings, and go on weekend campouts, and go to summer camp this coming summer. I got several questions, such as (some kind of amusing): How soon can my son earn Eagle? What exactly will he have to do to become an Eagle? (same dad as above) Do dads have to go on campouts? What do they do at summer camp? We talked about rank advancement, and merit badges. We talked about swimming requirements and the safe swim plan. I talked about expenses, but nobody really seemed that concerned about it. All in all, I'd say it was a fairly relaxed evening, and everyone seemed to get a good picture of the troop. Guy

Last year, when my older son was going through the transition process, I ran into the full gamut of crossovers. Our pack uses a set script, which they've probably used for several years in a row (after hearing it twice, I'd like to help switch that up this year). At the same time, I heard an SM say "the crossover ceremony is ours -- we handle it". Although I don't know for sure, since my son didn't choose that troop, my assumption is that their feeder pack takes care of an AoL ceremony while they do a separate crossover.

We've moved twice, so three packs total. I've found that all packs are different. An adjacent town has well-organized, well-funded and active packs. I think it pays to look around a bit. In our town, packs are tied to schools, more or less. I've heard the "but I thought we were supposed to join pack XX" line, but it's not true. You can join any pack you want (although the DE does get a little peeved if you decide to attend a unit in a different district!). Guy

With all due respect, I know the BSA Swimmer test (I did it myself more than a few times, even as an adult). When I'm doing something like prepping an 11-yr-old like him, I don't usually quote chapter and verse from the manual. I gave him the basics. "See, no need to worry..." is the general idea. He didn't fail because of my prepping (in a simplistic manner)!

Hey Barry -- I should have been more clear, and I think my response to Lisabob may have helped at least a little. As they rotated down to the waterfront on "induction day" :-), he did jump in the water for his swim test. From what I understand, the lifeguard/proctor asked him to try several different strokes that he didn't recognize by name: sidestroke, breaststroke, elementary backstroke. When my son said that he couldn't do any of those, the guy had him get out and called out "non-swimmer" to the guy filling in tags. I had prepped my son beforehand ("you're going to jump in, then swim three lengths any way you want, and then swim one on your back, and then you'll float for a short bit"), and I knew he was capable of passing the test. I had also prepped him with the idea that during the week, first thing after breakfast, there would be an instructional swim time, and that he could work on the 2C and 1C requirements when he was there. However, like any good young scout during his first time at camp, he got distracted and never managed to make it to instructional swim. This summer, I will probably be one of the adult leaders at camp, and I'm thinking about making sure all of the first year guys make it to the program geared towards them. Last year, my son was the only first year camper in the troop, and I think maybe the lack of having a buddy to accompany him kept him away from some programs. Anyway, thanks...I hadn't meant to hijack this thread. I just wanted to point out that we had a good experience, running into a troop Eagle Scout, by going to the local Y after summer camp was over.

"Hey Guy, just a question. Did the summer camp have a lake or a pool? I know some kids who are good swimmers but just don't like the mucky feel of the bottom of a lake (some lakes), or the fact that they might be unable to see the bottom if it isn't real clear water, or the idea of "swimming with the fishes" either. Could that have been the case?" Hey Lisabob - I missed your question until just now. It was a lake. I've never noticed that sort of propensity before in my son -- we have a town pond that he has been in ever since he was very little, and muck and squishiness has never seemed to bother him before. If I were to guess, I'd say that he was probably overwhelmed by the experience. New kid in camp, never been to camp before, first swim test, hurry up and change into your trunks, jump in the water, and then have someone bark orders at him about trying different strokes. Since there were so many other kids to cycle through, the lifeguard probably didn't wait around, and just labeled him a non-swimmer (when I thought by the mere fact he was in the lake, treading water, he might have been labeled a learner at the very least). I asked him about it, "you can swim, so why didn't they call you a learner?" His reply was "I don't know, he just told me to get out." In any case, I'm sure he'll be fine this next year. I know, and he knows he can swim. This next year will probably mean Swimming MB for him at camp. Guy

Boomerscout: Drum major is the correct term. Earlier in this thread, I drew a parallel between SPL/PL and how marching bands are organized (or at least how they used to be organized when I was marching -- SPL/PL is not unlike drum majors, section leaders and squad leaders -- these are "on the field" participants that have real roles and responsibilities), but it was buried in a ton of verbiage. As far as the Saturday meeting idea goes, there would be conflicts in our area because that's when the bulk of non-school youth sports happens -- I'd always thought that Sunday afternoons would be good for Scout meetings, although there would be plenty of people that wouldn't like that either...my son's patrol leader was looking for an alternate day for a patrol meeting, and it seemed like everyone was open on Sunday afternoons but him, because of his family. Guy

AnaMaria, I agree, but at the same time, I'd rather have the crossover be a surprise -- I'm counting on the idea that most of these Webelos parents aren't going to put too much thought into the transition prior to the crossover ceremony (and this is judging from our own Pack parents -- they're all fairly "last minute" kind of people). In fact, I'm guessing that not many of them will realize that their new AoL-ers will be immediately able to come to troop meetings, camp with the troop, and get set for summer camp in July. I don't think the reality will have set in yet. Part of that comes from, around here, the idea that Cub Scouts has been tied to an academic year. They're probably thinking "end of the school year" or maybe "next fall", while we are fully prepared to accept new scouts immediately. No more academic year for us. In one training session I've been in, which I borrowed for one of my own training sessions, is this statement: first meeting, first outing, first year. In other words, be sure to set up a good program to draw them in for the first meeting, a first outing as soon as possible (some troops like to do that the first weekend after the first meeting), and First Class in the first year (I subscribe more to the "first year, more or less" thinking that if a new scout can get to First Class by his second summer at summer camp, he's doing really well, and may even have a couple of merit badges by then. I may call a few parents (it is a limited bunch this year, maybe six new scouts, I'd guess; and my youngest will be one of the crossovers) to let them know about the handbook, and the neckerchief, etc. We'll see how that goes. Guy

Our pack has used a local "function hall" in the past, and this year is moving to a country club. The roughly $18/head cost is built into the annual dues (the pack doesn't really fundraise), and parents/siblings pay another $18/head added. The good news is that parental pressure at least got the banquet moved away from the function hall that had been used in the past. They were marginal at best. I don't really care for this formula at all, and I'm glad this year is our last year.

Stosh -- that's cool. Are there any good online sources of these kinds of things? (I would assume military surplus) Thanks, Guy