GKlose

Thanks guys -- I think if we get two boats, and they have diverging paths, so much the better. Of course, there may be some argument about who goes on which boat, but that will work itself out. But offhand, I don't recall which adventures are 10-12. That is certainly a good option. As of yesterday, I have 5 Scouts and 4 adults. Three more Scouts would say yes in a second, but they'll have to work out the payment issue. A side note: this trip is a little selfish on my part. Seabase opened up shortly after I aged out, and my old troop did go. Ever since, I've been filled with envy. So now, over 30 years later, my son joins a troop without a high adventure program. So, it's taken time, but now we have an actual 5-year plan (although we're unsure whether to try for Philmont or one of the other excellent-looking council-based high adventure programs in a few years). The only problem, of course, has been getting families re-oriented towards thinking two years out. For example, last week a mom told me they'd like to sign up, but they're just not sure what their son will be doing in two years. My attitude is that it's such a great opportunity, why not plan around it? I already know my older son will not be going -- in two years, that same week, he'll be on an exchange trip to Germany, which he has wanted to do ever since he figured out that other countries exist :-). Thanks again -- Guy

Thanks, Q. A quick Seabase reservation question: my understanding is that I'll place a specific bid for a specific Seabase adventure, with dates (and perhaps alternates). For example, let's say I have an accepted bid for two crews of 6 (4 Scouts, 2 adults). Is it easy to add Scouts at that point, up to the max of 8 total per boat? Thanks, Guy

Thanks, guys... At last night's troop meeting, I heard about another father-son pair that want to sign up. However, dad is 300+ pounds, so I had to broach that delicate subject :-). I know that the 50:50 split is not optimal -- ideally, if I get four more Scouts, we can do two sailboats with two adults on each. Then I just have to clamp down on new adults joining the group. Of the four (adults) presently signed up, three are direct-contact trained. One is not. He's pretty affable, but I think when I explain the situation, he might not balk at becoming trained. Qwazse -- it's funny you should mention the Crew idea. Our older Scouts, on their own, have been discussing starting up a crew. Our SM is not opposed to the idea, because he has daughters that are aging (but not presently ready to join). On top of that, our SPL is somewhat of an achiever -- he is a 14-yr-old Eagle, has about 120 merit badges (with a plan to finish the rest -- he is irritated with all the new ones, because he is shooting for a moving target), has a Hornaday Award, but is looking for the medal, is working on the National Outdoor awards, and started on STEM/Nova. So what's missing? Ranger/Silver :-). He's pushing for the Crew. I admire their initiative, but I'm not so keen on becoming a CC for a Crew, unless I can be convinced it isn't much work. Guy

RememberSchiff -- we had a couple of other odd incidents with this same guy. He eventually disconnected when his son turned 18. He didn't have much traction while he was on the committee either. One of the oddest stories about him, which doesn't really fit this topic, but I'll tell it anyway. The troop committee heard from him, at one point, that his son and another Scout had done some pre-planning for a bike trip on Martha's Vineyard. They figured out ferry schedules, a campground and all that. I should point out that this was back when the SM and the troop committee organized most outings. The problem with the MV trip was that it was planned in May and a June outing had already been set. July is our summer camp month. So the trip never took off. A year or two later, we had a PLC in place, and they were planning the monthly outings, but having marginal success at times. I'd warned the SPL many months in advance that he needed to check into the schedule for Boston Harbor Island camping, which was on the calendar (I knew that it didn't open up until late June, but the troop calendar was planning it for the first weekend in June). The SPL didn't take the advice, and when he went to book the trip at the beginning of June, he learned that not only camping didn't open up until the end of June, but it was already booked solid. Followed by a 1-week scramble for the backup plan. Mr. "Outdoorsman" sends out email to the troop moving the weekend outing to the resurrected Martha's Vineyard plan, and that unless he got 10 sign-ups within a week, the weekend outing would be cancelled. So, without SM, troop committee, or PLC approval, Mr. Outdoorsman set a plan in motion and cancelled it "for lack of interest" a week later. That was pretty much his last attempt at scheduling anything. By then, he wasn't even attending committee meetings any more. By the way, we didn't stay home -- there was still an outing, I just can't recall what it was. About that same time, we started doing less "destination" planning, and doing more activity planning. Example: "snowshoeing" in February, rather than "White Mountains hike". Guy

Hello all -- this coming January, I'm planning on putting in our troop's first-ever bid for a Seabase reservation. On our end, we have the understandable problem of few willing to commit to an event that is more than a year away, because it does throw a wrench into the whole reservation idea. Right now, I have four Scouts and four adults that would like to go. Ideally, I'd like to have two crews of 6-8, that way we can split up the four adults between the two crews. I can't really guess whether or not I will get 4 to 8 more Scouts signed up. Anyway... Other than that issue -- does anyone have any recommendations about putting together a Seabase trip? Thanks, Guy

My older son joined our present troop in April '08. I pretty much stayed out of the way until the CC set up a committee meeting (first occurrence since my son joined) in August '08. It was their "annual planning session." No youth involved, just dads. A few interesting things happened at that meeting. One was that the group discussed putting together a high adventure trip. "We've been talking about it for years, so maybe we should do it." I pretty much kept quiet, but as they discussed options, I spoke up and said, "why don't you get the group of older Scouts together and let them plan what they want to do?" In practice, that became the SM asking the entire troop "what would you like to do?" Another interesting thing that came out of that meeting was the "Outdoorsman" on the troop committee. When discussing options (and I should note that this Outdoorsman planned two annual trips, one being a ski trip with an overnight in a ski lodge, and the other being a whitewater rafting trip, both of which were $100+ weekend outings) he said, "why don't we go to Bar Harbor? That way families can come along and the wives can go shopping?" Remember, we're discussing "high adventure" and he's trying to accommodate shopping for wives. Hmmmm. Disconnect on the "high adventure" part. Guy

I'm with B-dweller -- online registration, with online payment (yes, I know -- many members of Scouts-L shouted me down with a "you are underestimating how many people in this country don't have internet" -- to which I reply, "so what? The IRS has definitely promotes online filing, and that is certainly a more secure act than anything related to the BSA, and old paper IRS forms have not disappeared"). I freely admit that I got kind of nasty with a new DE (and bombarded him with snippets of email conversations) when I found out that an ASM was still not registered after a year with us. He was a transfer, from the council in Puerto Rico. His wife, a committee member, transferred just fine. Eagle732 -- that's exactly what I've been thinking, but I'm just coming up to my first recharter. At the moment, I don't think I have any non-registered adult leaders, but by next year I might. BTW, yes I keep copies, and I've kept copies of all communication with the office. What I haven't done is visit them in person -- the hours are way too limited, considering where I work and where the office is located. One question for the group -- do any of your Council "service centers" have Saturday hours? Guy

I've only been a CC for about 7 months (and I'm coming up to my first rechartering) and I know that there are others that must share the problems I've had. I think I've had a problem on each and every single adult application I've sent in -- every time, there has been a problem that originated in the office. They would stop processing the application and not let me know there was a problem. So I'd discover the problem a few months later when I ask about status. The answer would come back about how I haven't paid (when I did) or hadn't turned in a CORI (which I had). In one case, they sat on a CORI for over a month, and then the state required a new type of CORI form. So they'd tell me (months later, after I ask) that I have to get a new CORI from the applicant because the old one was invalid. Or, the non-payment -- one check cashed, but not credited. Another adult leader was in the office to pick up an Eagle advancement kit, and he was forced to pay (again) the same charge before he could pick up the kit. Again, it wasn't credited properly, because a month later they asked for payment again (after I inquired why an adult still hadn't been registered). When I finally figured out the paper trail (which they didn't), I pointed out that we'd already paid twice and I should have a credit. Shortly afterward, I file another adult app, hoping to use that credit. They tell me there isn't enough in the account. I sent them my "evidentials" and heard nothing. Another month later, I hear that the application isn't being processed because of the lack of funds in "the account." Their solution -- I should be keeping at least $50 in the account with them so I wouldn't have these problems. My exact words to the DE (who was always requested to send the bad news): there is NO WAY I am going to keep an account with you where you can withdraw at will whenever you feel like it. So, with a DE switch, a newbie, I finally got angry enough with him that he went to look at the paper trail himself. The reason why I didn't have full credit (for the double-paid application)? They took the payment from our account for another unit's adult leader. Hmmm. So, why is it you want me to keep $50 with you? Coming up to rechartering, I've got two adult leaders that aren't showing up on our roster. One was a Cub mom that transferred to our committee in April. The other is a committee member, where I filed (and paid for) an application back in June. Despite multiple queries, I still haven't heard why they aren't on our roster. Meanwhile, a new mom (a middle school science teacher) files a merit badge counselor application through me. She's still not registered either. And no answer about the status of her application. I started a thread here a few month ago (and also on Scouts-L) about this: the single biggest time-waster I have is with applications. Not so much the Youth Applications, but the Adult ones. The "membership model" is little changed from when I became a Boy Scout in May of 1971. Back then, the form was much smaller, but it was the same format with carbon paper in between pages. 41 years and counting. Guy

SM uses the opportunity to upgrade something for his son -- a lighter-weight sleeping bag or tent, a backpacking stove, etc. Last year, I gave my sons "stocking stuffers" consisting of small things for their survival kits. Haven't thought much about this year yet. Guy

At a Canadian camp this summer, our troop camped next to a Sea Scout unit from an island adjacent to Montreal. At least that's how they described themselves. Co-ed, multi-age. Their camp contigent had 10 to 16 year olds in camp, but they also had a few age 16 and up members that were part of camp staff. After checking out their website, when I got home, I realized they are really a Scout group, from Beavers to Rovers. Seems like there is a group committee, not unit committees. Looked like the system works well.

Just a quick note -- a couple of years ago, a Scout Stuff catalog showed a small unit flag. The local Scout shop didn't know about it, but was able to order one for me. It took awhile to come in, but other than that, it was a pretty painless experience. So now we have two troop flags -- one regular one, which stays in our meeting place, and a small one that goes on outings with us (along with a small American Flag). I have no idea if the small format flag is still available or not. Guy

A few weeks ago, a young Scout sent me an email request for a "border review." :-)

Eagle92 -- I had similar, but not the same issues, when my older son was a Webelos shopping for troops. I had a gut feel for which troop he should join, but he picked the one that was last on my list. He rationale was that he knew someone in the troop, a nice kid, who specifically invited him to join the troop. I stayed out of the way for a few months, and observed. I did attend roundtables, and knew about upcoming events, and I'd let the SM and other ASMs know about them. There was a 5-council mini-jamboree happening that fall. I didn't catch on very quick to this, but none of the other adults seemed interested. The SM told us "I hunt in the fall, you guys can go [to the mini-jamoree] if you want". So I organized the trip. Here's what I was slow to catch on to -- the other adults always deferred to the SM. They didn't volunteer for events in his absence, because they didn't want to be stuck organizing them. So that's why we went to the mini-jamboree (because I was willing to organize it). I continued to keep my eyes open -- that first year my son had joined, the troop only camped 6 total nights, other than summer camp. Main reason: the SM was busy doing something else. But underneath the surface was an adult-led (primarily the SM) advancement-oriented troop. Most of the adults weren't so interested in camping, because their sons weren't (that is, they didn't need any more "nights" for rank advancement or Camping MB). In fact, I started a thread a couple of months ago about a Scout who had vanished from the troop for close to three years, and then came back wanting a signature for his Eagle application. This Eagle candidate specifically told me that he stopped going on outings because he didn't need to. He'd already done his time as a PL, and felt that he needed to get out of the way to let someone else be a PL. Most advice on this forum, on the Scouts-L email list, and at Ask Andy said "find a new troop." Ultimately, I decided not to, and worked with another adult on rebuilding the troop. I covered that in another forum post too. It wasn't easy. I wouldn't suggest trying it, unless you 1) have solid backing with other adults, and 2) you are up for a real challenge. We're 3 years in to rebuilding now, and we still have issues. The biggest one is perhaps the older Scouts that became a little too comfy with adults planning and doing everything (I wasn't on one particular outing where an adult asked a group of Scouts sitting around "who is going to clean up after dinner?" and got a "you are" response in return). By next year, most of those guys are aged out or otherwise gone, and the only Scouts we have left will be the ones having lived through the transition, or are new. Guy

Along with Cooking being revised and reverting to an Eagle-required merit badge, seems there are quite a few new ones in the works: http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/merit-badge-calendar/ Guy

Well, SP, because it is my dream, the water isn't added. In fact, just the opposite. Concentrated, not diluted. Of course, everyone would have to play nicely. For example, summer camps would have to do things differently than the way they do them now. But this is sounding like I disagree with you -- I don't. The last thing we need is to dilute what we have even more. If a WFA MB were added, I wouldn't want it to be handled the way that FA MB is handled right now. I would want it to mean something. Guy

Since I'm something of a dreamer -- Lots of us have complaints about how First Aid MB is generally watered down at summer camps...so my dream is that rank requirements would be beefed up a little, and that First Aid MB be just a little more rigorous, and that a WFA MB be introduced. Since this is just a dream on my part, First Aid MB wouldn't be Eagle-required, but WFA MB would be, and of course the first requirement would be to earn First Aid MB :-). Of course, just like how quite a few merit badges now require counselors with certification, the same thing would go for WFA MB. Guy

We had three separate experiences this summer, all of them showing promise: - at a patrol-oriented summer camp, we had one patrol of first-time campers and one patrol of veteran campers. Because of the nature of the camp, both patrol were in the same campsite, but maybe 50 to 100 feet apart. The SM and I basically left the older patrol alone for the week, and spent more time observing the younger patrol. Staff members at the camp are sort of trained to watch patrols as well, and step in as necessary. So the SM and I mostly just observed. - the next month, at a Canadian summer camp, we had two patrols, ad hoc, mixed ages. Here again, because of the campsite layout, they were closer together, but still separate. Since we had several adults in camp (drivers, mostly) we kept them in a separate cooking group (and we spent our energy working on our own menu changes, and cooking -- we had a blast). Very little adult interaction with the patrols. They didn't need it, and the SM would check in on them every now and then to see how things were going. The only reason why I interacted with them is that I was the primary "commissary agent", so I was doing daily food shopping, and I was getting their input on menu changes (we'd developed a menu before camp started, but modified when we saw what we could get locally). All other adults were pretty much just over in our area, sitting around. - the next month (last month, actually), the troop had established 3 new patrols, which are now supposed to be permanent. Because of the camping location (a Scout camp, where we were crammed into one smaller campsite), we had a lot of Scouts show up, and way too many parents. Three patrols and an adult cooking group, but more or less sharing the same area for cooking. It was crowded and unpleasant. The reason why I think of it as promising is that we have youth leaders now saying "we can't do that again; we need to spread out." Guy

Hey, I was blindsided this summer... I'm the troop adult that takes care of administrative things, like collecting medical forms, for summer camp. I don't mind this task, other than it irritates me when I get half-complete (give or take) information or late forms, etc, after I've given plenty of instruction, warnings, reminders and "last call" notes. Maybe I'm too communicative? I don't know... So, standard procedure for almost every youth camp everywhere, right? All medications must be in their original containers. But that didn't stop two mothers from pre-packaging their sons meds into weekly pill boxes. One of the moms is an RN. So I'm left wondering...did I forget to remind them? Was I not clear enough? Have they not been through this before? I could only smack my forehead and wonder how this was going to go. The camp nurse was great about it. Really. She took the ziplock and handed it directly to me and said, "I can't accept this, so please take this and lock it up somewhere" (it went in my car). She called both moms, didn't get hold of them, and then said she'd follow up. Said that maybe the meds could be overnighted or driven up to the camp. Great. Then comes what I don't like to hear. I saw the camp nurse a few hours later, and I apologized again and asked if things went well. Then she drops the bomb. One mom will take care of it. The other one -- well, she thinks that maybe her son will be fine without it for the week. That's just like another mom, who just decided not to send a medication that was listed on the med form. She decided that he probably wouldn't need it for the week, so she didn't send it. How am I, an untrained person, to know how to deal with the consequences of that decision? That is what I considered to be blindsided. Just dump the consequences on me. Guy

Not all medical insurance is the same! But that didn't keep one mom from arguing with me. Her son's annual physical date kept creeping later and later every year, because she insisted that it had to be at least 1 year and 1 day past the last one. Got to the point where, when I was asking for medical forms for camp, she said "but his physical isn't until [mid-week of camp week]". When I told her that she should check with her insurance company, because ours didn't do it the same way (one per calendar year), she argued with me that all insurance companies were the same, they all had to be at least one year apart, and that she should know better (than me, presumably) because she worked in a doctor's office. She wouldn't even check. Problem #2 with the same mom -- so when she said she would bring the form with him, when we left for camp, I reminded her, twice, that I'd like two copies of the form. One for the camp, because they don't return them, and one for troop records. Of course, she only sent one. I guess she assumed that the camp could copy it. I just said in a Scouts-L post that the second biggest headache I have is collecting medical forms every year. The newest incarnation of the BSA medical form still has three primary parts, but now parts A, B and C are all two pages. So instead of 3 separate pages, we now have 6+ separate pages to track. I am just loving this one. Guy

I have a Life Scout at home (almost an Eagle) who will be a youth staff member, in the Jamboree band. Guy

A couple of recent happenings for our troop: - since we had trouble with attendance on service projects, we decided to try calling an annual project for our CO (cleanup duty at the annual picnic) a mandatory service project. Of course, we knew that several families might have prior obligations, but we were trying to get them to commit to something they otherwise wouldn't even think about. But apparently we rankled one set of feathers. One mom called the council office and asked if troops were allowed to have mandatory service projects. We don't know who it is, and we don't know what the council said, but we wish the mom would have just talked to us first, and that we could have explained our rationale. - there were two Scouts that came to me for Cooking MB. They'd done two other MBs with me, and I could tell they were the types to try and slide by on the requirements. So I kind of drew my "line in the sand" with Cooking MB. One Scout, in particular, kept trying the argument with me that the SM would verify that he'd cooked on outings before (however, in the two years I'd been in the troop, I'd never seen the kid actually do anything!). I told him that I would not pass him unless I saw him actually cook. He also tried to play games with the details of the requirements -- his menus read like he was joking with me (he listed "mango" as a fruit for every meal, and listed "Mountain Dew" for every beverage). The backpacking menu didn't have weights listed (I consider that a key part of the intent of the menu), and his regular menus didn't have real costs on them (another key part of the intent, I think). He didn't list cooking equipment, etc. Lots of things missing. I wrote it down for him -- after he gave me a set of menus, I wrote down everything that he still needed to do. He waited a month, then turned in the same menu again. A wise guy. After that, I didn't hear from him again. Later on, when I checked our troop's advancement records, I saw that both Scouts had completed it with another counselor. At that point, I decided I wouldn't be counseling them again. It's not worth my time. So, maybe all of this is an argument why troops should not encourage their own local MB counselors (unless, of course, they are in such an area where there aren't any other choices, or they are assured that their own counselors do actually follow the requirements)? Guy

I'm with all the others -- nothing wrong with communicating with the present SM, to see what expectations may lurk about, and nothing wrong with checking out another troop. Maybe even it could be a temporary switch. Maybe the other troop has high expectations. Who knows until you start asking around. In our troop's case, we're pretty relaxed. We expect a best effort to attend, and we don't mind that some disappear for a few months at a time. My own sons fit in this same category, with football, marching band, travel team and AAU basketball, etc. They attend when they can, and they still do "Scout work" when they can. Had an interesting moment this last weekend. My older son had decided he wanted to row crew this last spring. Something of a schedule killer, with practice 6 days a week, and meets on weekends. I couldn't really argue with him -- he loves being on the water, and he loved being part of the rowing club. But the troop didn't see him for three months. About a month ago, he was looking at the requirements for Rowing MB, and saw that he'd completed almost everything. Got a letter from the rowing club coach, and then he approached a counselor. The counselor asked my son to bring a parent (me) if he didn't have a buddy. We met on Sunday. The counselor was great -- he had many great stories, and asked really good questions of my son. The counselor was impressed, and kept repeating to me that I should be really proud of my son (I am!). I don't think a young man has to be around a troop all the time to be considered a good Scout. On the other hand, I think he has to respect the program enough to participate when he can. If he reaches a point where curricular and extra-curricular activities sap up 100% of his waking moments, and he spends 0% of this time with the troop, then is he really a Scout? The astute reader will note that I started a thread about a month ago, which detailed an issue we had with a Scout that was "skirting the bare minimum" when it came to participation. So it might appear that I am arguing differently in the previous paragraph, but I think it comes down to intent and effort. Guy

For some strange reason, I never had any problem selling things when I was a Cub or a Scout. In fact, I was so practiced at it that by the time I hit HS band, and saw some of the crap they expected me to sell, I refused. Step 1 is to have a good product. I guess I knew instinctively about the "sales pitch" idea, but if I hadn't, a Jr HS band director coached us. He explained that you just don't knock on doors and say, "you don't want to buy one of these things, do you?". So when my oldest was a Cub, we talked about what a sales pitch is, and he practiced one. I'd agree that short and simple is the way to go. It was no problem for him to walk up to a door, knock, and give his 5-second pitch (with me standing out at the sidewalk, a respectable distance away). Not everyone buys, so it's important to have realistic expectations. It's funny -- as much as I dislike GSUSA cookies, they are one product that practically sell themselves. I just wish the popcorn had a similar cost/value feel. By the way, easiest thing I ever had to sell? For HS band, circa 1977. We had these fudgy chocolate candy bars that were $0.75 each. They were excellent. Kids from school would look to see who was carrying a box in order to snag one. Each kid in the band sold bunches of them. These days, you probably couldn't sell them in school, because they probably weren't made in a peanut-free facility. :-) Guy

Our troop wasn't selling popcorn, because of some payment issue way back when. Old news, as far as I'm concerned. Virtually all principal players are now different. In the past couple of years, we've had some parents asking for more "direct support" for camp fees, and at the same time the troop has been growing, with the possibility of more future requests. And -- at the same time, we've had a few outstanding popcorn sellers entering the troop (one, an average of $2.5k per year). So the logical thing to do was to reintroduce popcorn, and introduce Scout accounts. Only those that want to sell, and no proceeds go directly to the troop. All will be applied directly to a Scout's future camp fees. I've since talked to a few parents who were benefiting from the "direct support", explaining that with our troop growth we really can't sustain that model, and they happily agreed to sell popcorn. I have just one more family to talk to -- I don't think they are the selling types, but I may be wrong. From my end, I am the "kernel" which is a new experience for me. So far, it hasn't been too bad. I see it as no problem to repeat for next year. Pickup is on Saturday. We'll see how it goes after that. :-) Guy

This old and feeble Owl (the oldest and wisest of the forest creatures, and known to cough up a pellet or two in their time) says Congratulations! Guy