GKlose

I just brought up a Facebook profile a few weeks ago, and it's been amazing how many old and lost friends I've connected with since then. Friends that weren't easily connected to via LinkedIn or MySpace. I haven't run into any of the problems that some of you have run into yet, but then again, my kids aren't on (I think they're too young) and the only nieces and nephews I've connected with are the ones that requested it. It took me a few days to figure this out, but there is a certain "creepy factor" that has to be worked around with older folks on Facebook. I'm finding the "fan page" aspect to be rather interesting. Found a whole group of people connected via a fan page (we all agree that "fan" doesn't really suit in this circumstance) related to a rather large tornado that destroyed my home town when I was a kid. Facebook is a really expedient way to share pictures and stories. Guy

Had lunch with our DE yesterday, and told him that although we have a healthy FoS goal for this year (and only met about 60% of last year's goal), that the economy will be affecting things. He countered with the mantra of the SE -- "philanthropy has increased every year since blah, blah, blah". I'll bet they'll see the hit not only in FoS, but also in high-ticket things coming up -- camp attendance, WB signup, the council Philmont contingent, the centennial Jamboree contingent, etc. I also told him that although I don't fret about it, because it is way beyond my control, I have no idea how long I will be employed. The "industry" is actively being shipped overseas. This is kind of foreign territory to him. While he might have to worry about district and council consolidation, at least he doesn't have to worry about outsourcing. Guy

We do Scouting for Food on a council basis -- I didn't realize that national had dropped it. In our district, I'd estimate that half our units participated. In our town, 8 units, I'd guess that only 2 or 3 participated (ours was one). The "feeder pack" CM and I traded some email. He said that he didn't have time to take on a new project. I suggested that he just send out email to the pack and just do a collection from those families. He thought that was a good idea, but I don't think it happened.

Last spring, I tried mobilizing the four troops and four packs in our town for a town-wide service project (annual town cleanup, sponsored by the town's "solid waste advisory committee", for Earth Day). I even tried contacting the local GS Council (who wouldn't give me contact names for the units in our town). I'm thinking this is a really easy service project. The committee provides supplies, tools, water and snackage. Pick an area of town, show up, fill some trash bags, transport them back to the dumpster. What I got was crickets chirping. Not a single taker, including my older son's scout troop (I registered as an adult leader about two weeks afterwards). My younger son's pack -- the CC/CM (one-man show) said that he didn't want to have anything to do with it and I could do whatever I wanted. Roughly 40 to 50 families in the pack, only three volunteered for the crew I led. One was a no-show. One of the others, however, brought a neighboring mom and kids. At the time, I was pretty perturbed about the contact I had with Girl Scouts. The council website listed, on their front page, a series of service projects a unit could do, one of which was "planting flowers for Mother's Day at the Council offices". Here I thought I was pitching something that is pretty simple to do and has good community impact. The admin I contacted told me she would let the units in town know about the project, but I didn't get contacted by any of them. I'm more understanding now because I didn't get contacted by any of the BSA units either. Why does it always have to be about Good Turn patches, or service project hours for rank advancement, or providing labor for Eagle projects? Where did the concept of doing community service for the sake of community service go? Guy

Stosh, that's interesting. Just a thin layer of coals? Above and below? I'd imagine there is a tendency for the bottom of something to burn.

I bought a minimum order of 12 (2-digit patches), which I think came out at around $29. Individual numerals are $1.19, I think, which means getting the custom numerals was fairly close to the same cost. I covered this in another thread: with the new digits, the font of the 2 and the 8 don't match (and it really bugs me!). So getting the custom insignia was my only choice. Guy

I received a PM asking me about the rustic camp with patrol cooking that I had mentioned. I found it listed on the council's website, in northern Indiana, and I checked out their website. It now lists, as a feature, an "air-conditioned dining hall". Just as a side note, I was probably around 7 summers as a scout. I remember going to summer camp at the council camp twice and doing summer camp on our own twice. One summer I was working on the council camp, and one year I think we skipped because the troop went to the national jamboree (I think I still went as a day camper, with another scout friend). That leaves only one summer I can't recall. I'm not sure if it is because I skipped, or because the troop skipped. Guy

Buff, maybe it's the minority opinion and maybe it's not, but at a troop visit last year, I heard an SM say "the troop owns the crossover ceremony." I think his rationale is that once the pack awards AoL, the troop takes over. In fact, the troop did it at one of their functions and didn't attend B&G banquets in order to do it. Again, maybe he's the minority opinion, but I think it goes to show there are different ways of viewing the process. My younger son's pack invites all troops who are receiving crossovers to participate at the B&G. The CM then hands a script to the adult leaders of the troop and then expects them to follow that script (I'm not arguing that's a good idea either, it's just the way this particular pack does things). Guy

This is just pure speculation on my part, but when I hear something like "Webelos are not sure about joining a troop" I read that as "parents are not sure if they want their sons to continue with joining Boy Scouts". Not long ago, at a troop-sponsored Webelos open house (I'm the membership chair of the troop), I had pulled parents aside while their sons were being involved. I was hoping only to keep them for a few minutes, but with questions, our session dragged out the full length of the troop meeting. Cub parents are not always hip to what the Scout program is all about. I stressed, with the group I was talking to, that while Cubs Scouts is all about parent-child, Boy Scouts most definitely isn't, and was based on individual growth. Still, I got questions like "will I be required to camp overnight with the troop?". As a troop membership chair, when I hear about undecided Webelos, I'm thinking "opportunity for recruitment". I've already talked to the SM (SPL's dad) about whether or not the SPL will be available to drop by some Webelos den meetings to help convince some fence-sitters. Anyway, maybe I'm reading this particular situation wrong, but I agree with the others. Crossover is for when there is another side to crossover to. In past Crossover ceremonies, where one troop or another couldn't make it, I've seen troops accept new members "by proxy", but that was kind of done in fun. My younger son's pack does B&G, awards handouts, AoL and Crossover all in the same 4-hour event. It goes on way too long, but that is the way the CM has always done it, and always will do it while he is CM. Guy

Here are the requirements, as listed on usscouts.org: 8. Faith After completing the rest of requirement 8, do these (a, b, and c): a. Know: Tell what you have learned about faith. b. Commit: Tell how these faith experiences help you live your duty to God. Name one faith practice that you will continue to do in the future. c. Practice: After doing these requirements, tell what you have learned about your beliefs. And do one of these (d OR e): d. Earn the religious emblem of your faith* e. Do two of these: * Attend the mosque, church, synagogue, temple, or other religious organization of your choice, talk with your religious leader about your beliefs. Tell your family and your Webelos den leader what you learned. * Discuss with your family and Webelos den leader how your religious beliefs fit in with the Scout Oath and Scout Law, and what character-building traits your religious beliefs have in common with the Scout Oath and Scout Law. * With your religious leader, discuss and make a plan to do two things you think will help you draw nearer to God. Do these things for a month. * For at least a month, pray or meditate reverently each day as taught by your family, and by your church, temple, mosque, synagogue, or religious group. * Under the direction of your religious leader, do an act of service for someone else. Talk about your service with your family and Webelos den leader. Tell them how it made you feel. * List at least two ways you believe you have lived according to your religious beliefs. * If you earned your faith's religious emblem earlier in Cub Scouting, and your faith does not have a Webelos religious emblem, you must complete requirement 8e. Completion of requirement 8e does not qualify a youth to receive the religious emblem of his faith.

I have the cotton blend shirt, and I like it much better than the old blend. I bought it a little larger than I should have, but the short tails are an issue. A DE I know has complained about two things -- he has the nylon version, and says that it amplifies B.O. (reminds me of an old joke: "I smell something awful!", and the other guy says "You sure do!"). He also doesn't like the way the patch pockets sit on the portly types. Guy

"When you go from having zero utensils to wash to having 400 forks to run through the washer, three times a day, that changes the job substantially." 400 forks isn't so bad, at least not in the dishwasher we had (an autofeed system). Forks, etc, would have been loaded in small baskets, loaded onto a special tray; pre-rinse with a sprayer, and then fed onto the track into the dishwasher. Popped out the other end and it was left to air dry. The hard part was plates, bowls and serving dishes. If that had some kind of gloppy food, that had to be removed by hand. We were on a septic system, so there was no disposal. My very first cleanup, I was faced with a ton of dirty plates and I was looking around for something to scrape with. Then in a real Neanderthal Man type of moment, I realized I had the perfect tool on the end of my arm. I realized it's just leftover food, it's not even really trash yet. And it washes off when you're done. So, scraping was done by hand, with a hand. Goes really quickly. Our big week was about 220 campers and the staff (I can't recall, maybe 40 or 50?). Post-meal cleanup of dishes wasn't bad...maybe a half hour to 45 minutes? The bigger part was storing leftovers, mopping up and polishing the stainless steel counters and appliances. I think commercial kitchens are more stringent now, with disinfectant, than we were back then (I did a tour in a school kitchen during a fundraiser last year -- that's a school that serves 300 kids and staff with just two cafeteria workers -- but then again, there is a custodian to work tables and floors out in the dining room). By the way, I just recalled that a few months ago I checked the website of my old camp. I saw that they still offer dining hall service, but cafeteria-style (individuals walk through line with a tray). Now that pisses me off! Guy

I don't know...I'm not the least bit offended by Kudu's comments, and I took them as sarcasm. As an overly-sarcastic person myself, I know firsthand that good, biting sarcasm always has at least a bit of truth in it. He's got a point, but on the other hand, there are hundreds of scout camps that have dining halls and kitchen staffs. I was on kitchen staff back in the 70s, long before WB/21C Police were around :-). After my last "tour" at camp, I visited another camp in an adjacent state, to see some old friends. I stayed for a good portion of the week. That camp was much more rustic than the one I came from, and it was all patrol-based. A central commissary doled out food two or three times a day. But there was still a central kitchen (albeit a small one), with a single cook, to feed camp staff. During the time I was there, the camp director (who had been program director of my home camp the first year I worked there) asked me to cover for the camp cook twice, during scheduled time off that would have normally been covered by another staff member. No problem at all...I was more than happy to assist in any way I could. Guy

Come back to Boston! If you limited yourself to the Freedom Trail, you missed the Emerald Necklace, a 7+ mile-long series of interconnecting parks, laid out by Frederick Law Olmsted. There's always D.C. too. This time of year, you'd hit a bit warmer weather than the northeast! Guy

A year ago, prior to becoming involved with a troop, I didn't understand how important training or going to roundtables is. Want everyone on the committee on the same page with respect to the unit? Push training. I've found lots of adult leaders have a preconceived notion on how things should be run, but it might be an enlightening experience for them to hear directly about the program. The online training is quick and painless (Fast Start, Youth Protection). New Leader Essentials and Position-specific training takes either a couple of evenings, or one weekend day. In our council, those are offered by one district or another on a quarterly basis. One huge benefit of going to training, and the monthly roundtable, is the networking. You can hear directly about things that other units do. I get great ideas all the time. I'm not even that social of a person, but I have all sorts of new friends. The kind I can send an email or question or two every now and then. Guy

"I do not like the idea of staff swimming and shooting while scouts are in program areas." At least at my old camp, that didn't happen. Which was the foundation of my complaint. There was one staff break time, from 4:30pm to 5:30pm where staff could visit those program areas -- campers were in their campsites, or at the trading post. My complaint was the kitchen staff didn't get equal treatment, while putting in longer hours. My son's present camp (and I'll be there for a week this coming summer) has a "siesta" time also in the late afternoon. This year, I heard the description that this isn't so much because campers need downtime as it is to give the staff an hour break. Program areas are open from early morning through evening, except for meal times and this one-hour break. Troops are encouraged to use the downtime for their own activities. Guy

"Also never really liked staff heading out to other program areas to shoot, swim, etc. Some of my young Ecology staffers would want to go away often. I reckon staff should stay in their own areas and provide the best program/services to scouts and scouters." I understand, but the camp where I worked (and the camp my son goes to), built in a staff rec time from roughly 4:30 to 5:30pm every day. Scouts would migrate back to their campsites, and staffers were free for this one hour. Staff swim time, or range time, was arranged on request. The problem was that the kitchen staff didn't get the same rec time as everyone else. No use of the pool, etc. You can argue, of course, that staff doesn't need rec time like that, but I'd argue differently. No matter how you slice it, you're talking staffers that are 16-17 up to college aged, and they aren't necessarily prepared to work 9am all the way up to 9pm every day with only breaks for meal times. For me, running the kitchen at age 18, I was putting in better than 8 hours a day, six days per week. The only "down time" at camp was from Saturday just after breakfast, when camp broke, until the next day at noontime when a new group came in. That Saturday night was the only night off at camp. After I left, a new camp director (my old SM) changed everything around, from when parents night was held, to providing staffers an extra night off per week. I wasn't there, so I don't really know how it worked. I had one non-Saturday day off that summer, so I could go to my college orientation day. Luckily, I had a good assistant (he took the kitchen over the next couple of summers) and he was able to take care of everything. Guy

shortridge offered this: "Seventh, be kind to the cooks and kitchen crews, if you have a dining hall program. Lend them a hand from time to time, and hang out with them when you get a chance. When you're out doing the glamorous stuff like putting up the flags in the morning, they're sequestered inside slaving over eggs-from-a-bag and mixing the umpteenth vat of bug juice for hundreds of (usually ungrateful) campers. Never complain about the food! Thank them for what they're doing, and maybe suggest to your boss that you open up the pool late one night or early one morning just for the support staff. Or, if it's OK with everyone's supervisors, offer to work a shift for someone during your free period so they can sneak off and shoot a round of archery. (In addition to being Scoutlike, this behavior can get you an inside track into the commissary or kitchen for late-night PB&J sandwiches or ice cream sodas - always a bonus.) " As a two-year veteran of a camp's kitchen staff, I'd like to thank Shortridge for noticing. From my point of view, it was fun and interesting (and very low-paying) duty, and I didn't fully appreciate the job until one night when an SM approached me and said that one of his scouts had gastro-intestinal issues. I didn't really know how to respond at the time, but thinking back, we didn't have problems like that (other SMs reporting "issues"), and we'd passed both camp inspections and county health inspector inspections, and had some national BSA records to keep, on things like walk-in refrigerator and freezer, and milk cooler, temperatures. But if you turn out low-quality food, campers and staff have a lousy time, and it impacts everything. Oh man, did we work long hours. We were up maybe an hour and a half before the rest of camp, had maybe an hour break between breakfast service and lunch service, maybe a 2-hour break between lunch and dinner services, and were routinely in the kitchen and dining hall until about 8pm or 8:30pm. I'd use some of that time for my paperwork and ordering (while there was a cook hired, who did a pre-season order to stock the warehouse and the first couple weeks of camp, in my second year I took care of all that). The staff time at the camp pool ran from 4:30 until 5:30pm, but we were starting dinner prep at that point. The archery or rifle ranges? Nope, we couldn't get there, except during those break hours, which happened to be the time that MB classes would run. Sometimes the cook gave us a break, maybe by prepping some things the night before, so we could sleep in a little; sometimes we gave the cook a break -- if she prepped dinner, we could sometimes run service by ourselves. Cleanup was all us, but she would do most of the large pots that the short guys couldn't reach. I've matured a lot since then (thankfully), and I cringe at the thought of one incident I handled poorly. Late one night, during a stretch of severe weather, everyone was brought into the dining hall. At about 10pm, the camp director essentially asked me to bring out snackage and beverages. I wasn't happy about that at all. He wasn't considering that we'd still be there an hour after everyone left just in order to clean the place (again) and that we'd still have to be up an hour earlier than everyone else in the morning in order to get breakfast prep started. That late at night, I was already running on empty, and was fairly snippy to boot. He was patient with me, and eventually we worked out a compromise situation where we did bring out stuff, and the stuff that needed to be cleaned sat until morning. We had to get up a half hour earlier to run the dishwasher and have everything cleaned before breakfast. So thanks, Shortridge. Not everyone notices the kitchen staff, and unless they're doing a poor job, there is very little feedback. Guy

My advice is something you probably don't want to hear. I've been in a similar position where my older son transitioned to a scout troop last year. His younger brother, of W1 age, but with a 10th birthday just a few days after 4th grade started, is mentally done with Cub Scouts. He doesn't enjoy it any more. It took a lot of extra work on his part -- he did 1st and 2nd year Webelos activities, not only with his den of 4th-graders, but also with the older den as well. At this point, he has finished everything for AoL, and will receive it next month at the pack's Blue and Gold Banquet (this pack uses the banquet as an end-of-year awards banquet). Going all the way back to Tiger Cubs, it isn't always about pass/fail requirements. It is about putting Cubs into a position to achieve. Sometimes, yes, this means parents do hand-hold their Cubs marching them from activity to activity, so their Cubs can earn a badge. The situation you're describing sounds like many other cases I've seen. My advice? It is up to the Den Leader, and if there are issues, the DL should be talking with the parent. A boy has one shot to earn Arrow of Light, and I think they should be figuring out a way to make it happen. If the boy is anxious to move on to a Scout troop, all the better. It is far more important to retain him in the overall program than it to have a pack committee, CM and DL all deciding whether or not a Cub is worthy of being awarded the Arrow of Light after having finished all of its steps. Guy(This message has been edited by GKlose)

About a year ago, I had virtually no idea what my district was all about, other than I knew the DE. I asked him if our town had a UC that covered units. The answer I got was "well..." and then an explanation of how the district is in a rebuilding process. I also received an invitation to join the district committee. Having been on the committee since last June or so, and being part of a unit committee, while also being closely associated with a Cub Scout pack that my youngest belongs to (my wife is more actively involved with that unit -- they meet on a night when I have a regular conflict), I now can see both sides of the issue, just like many of you do. I see how little involvement there is with the monthly roundtable (there are close to 50 units in the district, and I see about the same 10 regulars at the monthly roundtable). I see how a district activities chair, and his small crew of volunteers, plan virtually all programs in the district. I see the new district training subcommittee that is ramping up on providing quality Cub training. I see the rebuilt commissioner staff, and their attempts to contact (not even "service") units that haven't had contact in a few years. But I also see the unit side. Our troop committee chairman and I met a UC this last week, probably for the first time in 2 years. He's new, so he's getting OJT as well. The Cub Scout pack, who desperately needs UC help, hasn't had contact yet (I've seen both sides, and I can't attribute fault to either side; it just is). This is just with the units I know firsthand. The other 48 or so units in the district? Who knows... I sometimes wonder if the average unit thinks that the district is just a non-entity, or worse, a burden. Which is unfair, because I see the same small group at the monthly district committee meeting, and I see how much they add to the program (I don't even see the collection of UCs that meet the night prior to the committee meeting). Everyone I've met that assists with the district has a common goal. They seem to want to deliver a quality program for everyone in the district. Not just their own sons' units, but to everyone. Very little love comes back to them. A good example would be what I heard at the last meeting. The wrapup on the Klondike Derby was excellent -- increased turnout compared to recent years, and the program that day went well (the one thing that didn't go well was overnight guests -- it was a below zero night, and there weren't many takers on the overnight). Good numbers of Webelos attending, with host troops. But one troop wasn't so happy with the location. They prefer it to be at different location, which just so happens to be the town forest of their town. The word at the district committee meeting was the site has problems including a small stream that bisects the property, and is somewhat of a barrier to cross (wet scouts, cold weather, etc). I'm just hoping to add my small part -- I'm part of the district committee, and I go to monthly roundtables. I report back to the troop committee and SM/ASMs about what went on. I've encouraged the troop to participate in some things that have fallen off in the last couple of years, and so far so good. Guy

Back in the old days, weren't there national high adventure areas in Maine and Cumberland Gap? (I know for sure about Maine -- I was there in '76 -- and it still exists as a council-run base, with some of the same staff). I was gone from the program from about '78 until early this century, so I missed when both were dropped from the "national" high adventure program.

Just a simple thought, but maybe it doesn't always need to be such a big event. What about a simple potluck outdoor picnic? Games for Cubs and siblings. Nature hike? Also -- and I've heard this from some packs that don't have summer programs ("but it's so hard to coordinate summer schedules with everyone going on vacation") -- try not to get so hung up on finding a date where everyone can make it. Maybe 10 families will be around, rather than the whole group. It still might be a fun function for those that are around.

I'm starting to wonder if this was a troll. The kicker for me was the statement "I was going to sit the child down...". The other clue is the "1" post and not showing up since. Guy(This message has been edited by GKlose)

SSScout, we had a similar event (MassJam '08) last Columbus Day weekend, in the northeast. I don't recall the total number, but I think it was around 7000 scouts, not including staff, at a fairgrounds on Cape Cod. Surprisingly small, to me, event area. Five councils or so, covering at least MA, NH, CT and RI. I was skeptical at first, but honestly it was an extremely well-run event. I had two small quibbles about things, but neither of them had much to do with the organization itself.

I don't think it's so tricky, but I can see how some get confused. Excerpted from Webelos Badge requirements: # Be an active member of your Webelos den for 3 months (Active means having good attendance, paying den dues, working on den projects). Excerpted from Arrow of Light requirements: # Be active in your Webelos den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade (or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old), and earn the Webelos badge. My thought is that the AoL requirement doesn't say: "earn the Webelos Badge and then be active for six months", it says "be active for six months and earn the Webelos Badge". Boy Scout joining requirements do not say anything about having AoL for six months. What it does say, out of the three possible ways to qualify to join, is "have earned the Arrow of Light Award and be at least 10 years old" (the other two ways are "have completed 5th grade and be at least 10 years old", or "be 11 years old"). We know that in order to earn AoL at the earliest a Webelos would have had to turn 10 and then start the six-month clock running. So that would translate to a minimum Boy Scout age limit of 10-1/2. The other possible way would seem to be finishing 4th grade prior to turning 10, and then start the clock running (presumably with a den that is active over the summer). I suppose there could be further argument about whether or not the 3-month period for Webelos Badge can run concurrently with the 6-month period for AoL, but there isn't anything in the above requirements that says that can or can't happen. Guy