GKlose

Honestly, if it were me and my son(s), and I was doing it over again, I would try and honestly assess where a troop sits with "patrol method" and being youth-led. Do they have a functional PLC? Do patrol activities dominate their program? Do patrols have patrol meetings? Do they came as patrols, or just one big troop? Do they cook as patrols? Do they have a functional quartermaster (or multiples) that hand out equipment to patrols? (and all sorts of questions like that) And I know this will make some people groan, but I think Kudu/Rick (and others around here) are dead on with this topic: do the patrols camp quite a distance apart? The reason why I feel this way is based on my own scouting experience. Yes, we camped apart. A few times, when we did our own summer camp, I doubt we were within 1/4 mile of each other. I'm not sure, because I never visited another patrol site. We were always just working within our own site (which we picked ourselves, built the gateway, rigged our own shower, dug our own pit toilet, etc -- this was back in the early 70s). We had our own adventures, and yes, we tried to be the best patrol there. Other than a daily campsite inspection when we weren't there, and guest adults for dinner, we didn't have adult visitors in our campsite. Guy

"Moist" soap probably has two advantages, only one of which is for the consumer -- the "lathery-ness" and feel of it. Creamy, sort of. But the other is that "moist" soap gets used up faster, an advantage to the soap manufacturer. I noticed that a long time ago, when the Safeguard brand advertised that it was always "the smallest soap in the house." I had noticed that it feels different, and gets used up more quickly than other brands. It has the feel of sort of being whipped soap. If you're interested -- try it with one of your regular soaps sometime. Unwrap a bar and let it sit in a closet or in a vanity for several weeks. Then try using it and comparing it to a newly-unwrapped bar. I think you'll find that the "dried-out" bar lasts longer. Guy

I suppose the funny thing was is that I took the old dried-out bar myself and couldn't figure out why everyone else had a crumbly time, but mine was easy to carve. Then I figured it out. :-) The call to my friend confirmed it.

In another thread, there is talk about Whittlin' Chip and first knives for Cubs. I discovered something I thought I'd share, since it might have practical use for Bear dens working on Whittlin' Chip. For eons, Ivory soap (it's cheap, and you can always keep the "shavings" to reuse in your household) has been a common first medium. When I taught a den, I'd grabbed a couple of really old bars of Ivory we had in the back of a closet, to go with another half-dozen I'd bought. The discovery I made is that the older soap had dried out, while the newer stuff was very soft, kind of moist actually, and fell apart easily. The older soap was far better for whittling -- you could make controlled cuts much more easily. So I checked with one of my oldest friends (an Eagle from my old troop). He said, "right -- that's exactly why my mom would unwrap bars of new soap and let them sit for a few weeks before we'd use them. Otherwise, she said, the soap disappeared too quickly." Guy

I'm the one that used the term "poaching", by which I meant actively recruiting from other troops. I don't do that, and I don't do anything that resembles it. I keep running into kids I know that have moved on to other scout troops. Given the circumstances, I'll say hello to them and their parents, but I wouldn't say something like "if you decide you don't like the troop you're in, then why don't you stop by one of our meetings?" To me, that would be an attempt at poaching. If one of them would ask about our troop, depending upon the circumstances, I'd tell them about the other troops in town too. It is always more important to find the right fit for a scout. Guy

Thanks, 'fish -- When looking around for summer camps (we have a council camp, and do have a reservation there for a third year in a row, but I'm an engineer, so I'm always looking for something better!), I had a discussion with our CC about building the patrol method, and the suitability of this patrol-oriented camp. We both agreed that the older scouts were just a little too entrenched in their "troop method" ways, and that the best bet would be to target younger scouts, and especially first-year and crossovers. Meanwhile, the older guys are starting to feel bored, and want to do high adventure activities, and the SM is well-suited for that kind of stuff. When given the opportunity, I keep telling them "start planning what you want to do, and make a proposal", but as I said above, they're just a little too entrenched. They're exhibiting a lot of the "I'm bored, so entertain me" entitlement. Guy

Took a small step today -- First of all, thanks to everyone for the ideas of getting a troop on-track. Things have been going really well in that regard (as long as one resigns oneself to slow, small steps). I took a small step by registering the troop to attend an adjacent council's patrol-oriented summer camp (Camp Bell, in Daniel Webster Council, NH). Patrol-oriented in the sense that we'll have patrol cooking, but also patrol programming (set up by the PL, for his patrol). The other adult leaders all have older sons, none of whom were planning on attending summer camp with the troop this year (the adult-led, advancement-oriented troop loves their "Eagle Week" camp, right?). The current PLC has only one possible member who may attend summer camp. The other adult leader (we seem to be on the same page) and I are the only adults that have committed to spending a week at camp this summer. So I talked it over with him -- I admitted that the week would be a challenge, because our guys don't really know how to act like a patrol, and there wouldn't be the same emphasis on summer camp merit badges. He said "merit badges are important, but our guys need patrol method now!". So far the only scouts committed to camp are my two sons, the other adult's son, one older scout, possibly the one PL, some unknown number of first-year scouts and crossover Webelos (I'm going to schedule a summer camp parent's meeting Real Soon Now, in order to talk to the newbie parents about what camp is all about and why this one in particular will be important). There will be other steps to take, of course, but one major problem will be integrating new scouts into a patrol system that doesn't fully exist in our troop yet. Guy

I've recently bought equipment from alpsmountaineering.com, campmor.com and rei-outlet.com (there are sometimes some excellent deals in their online outlet). Most equipment is year-round stuff, but the one thing I've struggled with is that I don't think we can do it without two sleeping bags each. One for cold weather and one lighter-weight one for backpacking and "shoulder season" weather. We have several "camp bags" we've been cycling through over the years, and I've come to the conclusion that they are basically useless for anything other than car camping in milder weather, or perhaps at summer camp, if you don't have to carry your stuff in too far.

I'm membership chair of our troop -- this last September, we had a visit from a scout from another troop. He participated in the meeting, while I talked with his mom off to the side. She was very up front that they were taking a look at other troops. I wanted nothing to do with "poaching", but if the scout wants to move, that's his choice. So I answered the mom's questions, I hope fairly an accurately, but didn't try and "sell" our troop. A couple of weekends later, I was at a Woodbadge weekend, and I bumped into the scout's current scoutmaster. I really didn't know him, but I did know who he is, and I knew that he was new to being SM of their troop. So I decided to be up front about it, and told him that we had a visit from one of his scouts and that we didn't solicit it, and that I wanted nothing to do with poaching. He was very friendly about it -- he thanked me, and said that there were some issues in their troop and that he knew about the scout's visit. He also told me that he talked to all of the parents in the troop to clear up some of the lingering issues (seems like miscommunication to me, seeing as how he was new in his role). The scout didn't switch troops, but something interesting happened. Now I'm on very friendly terms with the other SM, and our troop invited them to our fall "Pumpkin Chuck" event. They came and had a great time, and we'll do it again next fall. They've invited us on their February "freeze out", since they already have space reserved at a camp. The "start of a beautiful friendship", I hope. So here's my advice: communication is a two-way street. Sometimes we get caught up in who calls who, but maybe what we should worry about is being friendly and being in communication with SMs from other troops. Then poaching isn't so much the issue as it is finding the right fit for every scout. Guy

I know a scouter that is switching over to an oral appliance to help with backcountry trips, if it works out (the adjustment takes several months). Obviously a CPAP machine wouldn't be suitable for a multi-day trip without some kind of battery/charging arrangement. There is an online forum, cpaptalk.com, that routinely talks about camping and backcountry trips with OSA. What isn't acceptable, of course, is attempting it without therapy. The risk of cardiac arrest is far too great (and forum members are quick to point out that Reggie White, a retired NFL defensive lineman, spent exactly one night of his life -- the last night of his life -- off CPAP). Guy

My 13-yr-old is in a similar circumstance. I suppose it started when we were both watching "Mail Call" with R. Lee Ermey, and he was about 9 yrs old. He started to watch programs on the History Channel and the Military Channel. He saw snippets of Burns' "The War" when it originally ran. Since then, he's branched out a little. He read "Band of Brothers" (by Stephen Ambrose) for summer reading last year, and he has since read a few books on WWI and WWII. Lately he's been watching R. Lee Ermey's new show, "Lock and Load". He knows that the "Band of Brothers" "creative team" has a new series, "The Pacific" coming this March to HBO. I'm guessing that it will be a bit on the graphic side, but at this point I think he'll be able to handle it. I've been reading a few other Ambrose books myself -- in the last couple of years, I've read "The Wild Blue" (about bomber pilots, but mostly about George McGovern -- that book is pretty simple to get through), "D-Day" (a very detailed book), and "Citizen Soldier" (also very detailed, but there are good sections on medics, prisoners of war, and things like that). Just before Christmas, in the gift shop of a Cracker Barrel restaurant, I found a DVD set of the complete "Victory at Sea" series for $9.99. We haven't watched that yet. Awhile back, I found a documentary put out by Spielberg's Shoah Foundation called "The Last Days". I highly recommend it. You can also see interviews of survivors on the Shoah Foundation website (the mission of the foundation is to record oral histories of survivors). Guy Maybe it's because the WWII generation is slowly

I love those patrol yells! I knew that some of our patrols would resist actually choosing names (indecision, stonewalling, whatever -- it doesn't really matter). I was just messing with them, and I told a couple of patrol leaders that they had two weeks to choose a patrol meeting, and if they didn't, they would be known as the My Little Pony patrol and the Hello Kitty patrol. :-) The Hello Kitty patrol decided that Platycats would be a good patrol name, and the My Little Pony patrol hasn't come up with a real name yet. In fact, we haven't really seen the PL in awhile. (reality note: I'm not really going to choose a name for them! But it does irk me that the system has non-functioning patrols such that even the simplest step, like choosing a patrol name, can't get done.) Guy

Maybe I'm more relaxed than others, but I didn't see his list as being inflammatory. Sure, it would probably degenerate into pages and pages of quibbling over percentages and how he worded certain things, but that's minor. I think we can all understand where he's coming from, and kudos to him for actually putting his name on a strong opinion. It's not that I know our district's troops well, and I would like to observe a few of them, but I've seen all sorts of things in the last couple of years (longer, if Cubs are included): helicopter parents, Webelos III troops, advancement by pulse-checking, empty PoRs, "World's Oldest SPL", predominance of car camping, alleged boy-led which isn't, September to June troop activity, and the list goes on and on. One favorite of mine was where a parent pushed for an August "high adventure" trip to a national park where siblings and parents (he specifically mentioned moms) could go along, shop and hang out (no kidding!). Guy

Buff -- when you talked with the PL during an SMC :-), what was his take on the situation with his patrol? Also, has the PLC talked about how to best integrate the new crossovers into the troop? Guy

Maybe I'm naive, but I'm not concerned so much about the older boys (14-17) in my case. They're pretty much minimal effort, are way-involved in other activities (town-wide sports is very popular where we are, my own sons included), and participate when they can. One aspect is that we are very much advancement-oriented, so most of the older ones do make progress towards Eagle (sliding by on the PoR aspect), and it seems like most have little to do with the troop once they reach that milestone. I don't think I can offer much with that scenario. So, I'm trying to address the leadership and participation of the younger boys. I'll give an example of something I did that was rather ham-handed, and fell flat: we've discussed, in troop committee meetings, how to get patrols more functional. We have non-functional patrols, and outings are sort of thrown together with ad-hoc "patrols", but it really ends up just one large group of everyone camping together (side note: in the last 18 months, major troop purchases have included a large carport/fly, a troop trailer, and a large 3-burner camp chef propane stove -- can you see where this is headed?). Since the committee had been in a habit of forming and reforming patrols annually, based on random criteria, I suggested a two-step approach: reform patrols, putting the active kids together in patrols (so we could dump the ad-hoc patrol thing on outings), and then stick with those patrols (no annual reforming by adults). Another adult (an ASM) shouted at me in the meeting: NO! YOU CAN'T PUT ALL THE GOOD KIDS IN ONE PATROL! My response (not shouting) was: "hey, I'm not talking good or bad, I'm talking about forming a patrol with the kids who typically go on every outing." The funny thing is that when I looked at the issue, it only meant moving a few Scouts, out of the 30 or so on our membership rolls (in fact, two dropped from the troop this last fall), and then combining two smaller groups into a patrol of 7. It would have meant, roughly, two active patrols, one patrol of inactives, and a small "senior" group that wants to act more like a venture patrol anyway (hey are the SPL/ASPL/JASM and a couple of other older scouts). I didn't win that argument: we're still four (smaller) patrols, with inactives interspersed, two dropped, and the "senior patrol" was formed. But I did hear the committee commit that these are now standing patrols. The adults will not reform them (and we talked about the issue of a Scout wanting to switch patrols). We'll see how this goes. I did get another "capitulation", if you want to call it that. Since last year, I felt that patrols had been randomly reformed, and my older son had been pulled from one group where he was comfortable, moved into another group that kind of made no sense (geographically, or friends, or otherwise), I suggested that when patrols were reformed (the "best and final offer", so to speak), we ask that scouts write down their names and the name of a buddy they'd like to be in a patrol with. Most fell along natural school-friend lines, and it made the process a lot easier. I stayed out of it, but I think that there weren't any natural buddy pairs split up. My hope from here is that if a small handful of Scouts want to form their own patrol, we're able to just say "sure, go ahead" and stay away adult meddling. You know, the way it's supposed to be. I'd love to be in the mode where a Scout who needs a PoR, and wants to be a PL, is just able to work it out himself and grow his own patrol. Anyway -- thanks for listening. As always, I really appreciate your insights and input. Guy

Thanks LisaBob and BuffaloSkipper -- I've been keeping my eye on posts by both of you for awhile. I've been able to relate to a lot of what has been going on. Guy

Wow, thanks guys! I got busy yesterday, so I'm only getting back to the forum now. I had no idea that this thread was spun until just a few minutes ago. In some ways, I wish I could tell all the stories I've collected over the last 18 months. You guys would cringe for sure. And to be honest, there are times when I've felt like the easiest thing to do would be to go find another troop. Hmmm, which would it be, the Webelos III troop or the other adult-led troop-method troop in town? :-). (or to a troop in an adjacent town?) Anyway, I appreciate all of your responses. Training hasn't been the problem in our troop (I think we have direct-contact adults 100% trained), but applying the training, putting the training into practice, has been. I've tried to be careful -- I'm not trying to cram my vision of success down the troop's throat, but I've tried to make suggestions, and to arrange things, for the betterment of the troop. Maybe sometimes by asking pesky questions ("so when are we going to have our next committee meeting?" or -- and I forget how I phrased this -- "how about we start up the PLC again?"). But things are looking up lately. In the parent thread, I think I mentioned that we have a new dad that came in the last year. He's an Eagle Scout and he was more than happy to take over the advancement chair. I've already planted a bug in his ear about some of these troop-method versus patrol-method things we're seeing, and I'm pretty sure we're on the same page. So thanks again, everyone -- I really appreciate it -- Guy

John-in-KC -- I appreciate and understand your advice. The greater issue is that we're so troop-method adult-led, the SPL and PLs have all grown up under a system where they haven't had to do anything. You know how everyone always says that as an adult you can't come into a troop and try and change the culture. Well, I'm idiotic enough to be attempting that. :-) But I'm not alone any more. A new dad joined. He's an Eagle Scout, and he recognizes the same issues as me. We're on the same page, and we're working together on this. My mantra is: one small step at a time. So that's why I'm trying to generate the ideas like the mystery envelope, which (hopefully) will force patrols to shop for themselves. The good news is that I think the troop leadership is thankful that I'm bringing new ideas (and I'm thankful for this forum, where I get new ideas every day). They've continued the troop-method adult-led system from a previous SM who seemed burned out (he was before my time). I don't think they're resistant to change, I just think they're not sure about how to move forward. I could give plenty of examples, but I don't really want to hijack this thread. Thanks -- Guy

I haven't done exactly that, but I've certainly heard of a few "Cast Iron Chef" competitions on this forum. What I have done: 1. (the troop did this) up front, SM tells patrols that they'll receive two whole chickens. The patrol plans the rest of the meal. 2. (I organized this for a district camporee, where the theme was backpacking) Top "Philmont" Chef: challenge patrols to come up with a backpacking-friendly dinner menu. Raw ingredients (including packaging) were weighed up front. Points were awarded on several topics: overall quality, weight, ease of prep, cleanup, leftover trash to carry out, etc. 3. "mystery box" -- patrols were given cardboard boxes containing several different items, including canned vegetables, pasta, kidney beans. Differing proteins. Leftover staples went into a stash in the troop trailer and will probably be used in future mystery boxes. What I'm planning on doing: Repeat the mystery box, but use something clever like Spam (got that idea on this forum too). Mystery envelope (since our patrols haven't been shopping on their own) -- envelope filled with a set amount of money, drop patrols at a grocery, and pick them up later. I'm also thinking that a cast-iron only patrol competition would be fun too. Before criticism is launched this direction -- yes, I know these are "troop method" ideas. That appears to be the way this troop has been for awhile. I'm working in these ideas to get the guys thinking more along the lines of "patrol method" in terms of their cooking. By the way, for the patrol competition at the district camporee, I was cautioned against having too many rules. The organizer wanted a half-page or less of description. In practice, the quality of the finished food was quite good. The main differentiator was weight and trash (a lot of cans, boxes, etc). Almost everyone came up with a one-pot meal of some sort. Guy

In our course (NE-I-267), there were a couple of good ones: the Buffalo patrol would yell "Tatonka!". The also had some song lyrics they would chant, but I can't quote them. The "off the wall" one that I liked was the Fox patrol, who would yell "Friends of Xylophones - yip, yip, yip, yip!" (it took us awhile to catch on, but Friends of Xylophones = FoX). My patrol's yell never caught on: we'd yell...Owls. Who? Owls. Who? Owls. Who?

Kahuna --> about Breaker Morant (unless you've dropped this thread already): I was in a used bookstore a long time ago, and in the history section, saw a massive set of books which described the history of the Boer Wars. Since the only thing I really knew about the wars was what I'd seen in the movie, I looked up Harry "Breaker" Morant. It was interesting -- out of that entire history, there was just one small paragraph devoted to the case, and it was fairly dismissive. I took that to mean that George Witton had one point of view (which was used for the script) while the incident may not have really registered on the historical radar. So I can't really claim any knowledge other than what I've seen in the movie. I've always felt it was an excellent movie, not only story-wise but also in terms of good, solid point-of-view filmmaking. Guy

Our youngest graduated out of the pack this last spring, so we've moved on to germinating new ideas for a troop. But as far as the pack goes, I hope nobody ever runs into a Cubmaster like this one. Name, Blanket, first name Wet. I could go into a whole bunch of stories (and I have, on other threads) but this pack helped me write a "How To" which I delivered at a district roundtable (I'm a district membership chair). This was it: How to Kill a Unit: 1. Don't recruit. 2. Don't do anything to keep the Scouts you already have. 3. Offer a lousy program. So, I'm being sarcastic here (but I did really deliver that exact "How To" at a roundtable) but I think you get the idea. It's not like I've been around the block too many times, but I've seen a bunch of poorly run units. Guy

There is an interesting movie based on the trial of 3 Australian officers in the British Army during the Boer Wars in South Africa: Breaker Morant. The lead in the movie, Edward Woodward (a.k.a. The Equalizer) recently passed away. Bryan Brown (F/X, Thorn Birds, etc) played one of the other officers, named Hancock. This is allegedly a famous incident from Australian history, and was one of the few Australian movies of that time period (1980) that made it out to international release. It was directed by Bruce Beresford, who went on to direct Driving Miss Daisy and Tender Mercies. I first saw it in a college film class, and our instructor made a big point of how "young film industries" usually turn inward (to their history) for subject matter. I'm not sure how fictionalized the movie is, but the incident involves the three Australian officers being tried for executing Boer prisoners. The trial is portrayed as being something of a sham (the movie's script and technical aspects go to great length to show the prejudice of the British over the Australians) -- the officers had direct orders from Lord Kitchener to execute prisoners, but in the trial, Lord Kitchener was unavailable to testify and his aide denied the existence of such orders. Guy

Now that sounds like FUN! :-) I got a germ of an idea from this forum: "Who Is Smarter Than A Cub Scout?" To create a game show for the pack, pitting parents against Cub Scouts, with appropriate rewards and penalties. Questions could be drawn from basic Cub Scout knowledge. The CM wouldn't go for it :-( (same basic reasons: hadn't been done before, sounds like too much work, "parents would never go for it", etc).

Thanks, Frank, for posting the pointer. Eagle732 -- the link that Frank sent showed a price of $149 for a "gently used" system. Do you have another source that runs less than that? (I'm sort of in the market for a winter bag or two) Thanks, Guy