GKlose

I'm not sure I follow completely, but if what I think you're asking is if a foil-covered piece of cardboard can be used as a base on which to hold lit charcoal, I think the answer is no. Foil is not an insulator. Guy

If you ask me, film canister rockets are a load of fun: http://www.ehow.com/video_4403113_make-film-canister-rocket.html There are a ton of online links describing things. The only question...how long before film canisters are a bygone? Guy

I can provide some examples later, when I'm at home. But mine were graduated in terms of difficulty. At the First Grade (Tiger) level, I asked "What is the Cub Scout motto?", for example. Note that my questions were for Cub parents, since Cubs weren't part of my session. I scoured through rank requirements, and trivia, and through one of those decks of Cub Scout knowledge cards to find suitable questions. It wasn't hard to do. It was harder to narrow it down to 10 minutes worth of game/icebreaker.

Maybe it was after seeing your original post, but I was working on something similar. I was thinking about working it into my Woodbadge patrol's project until I figured out Woodbadge already had a Scouting trivia contest (right before "Win All You Can"). So I scrapped it. But I did sort of get to work it in on another project. I did an advancement overview of the entire Scouting program for Cub parents that I called "Trail to Eagle". The second year I did it, I was asked to orient it more towards Boy Scouting. So the compromise is that I took the highlights of the Cub Scout program and worked them into a trivia game called "Who's Smarter Than A Cub Scout" and I gave parents (about 30 of them) silly noisemakers to ring in with. I used the trivia game as an icebreaker for my presentation (I also used it as my demo presentation for a "Trainer's EDGE" course). I organized the trivia questions by grade, but of course they aligned with rank (for example, "First Grade" was Tiger Cub questions, "Fourth Grade" was Webelos questions, etc). It only lasted about 15 minutes, but I had hoped that it would be a way to get the audience interacting. It worked pretty well, but I think if I were to do it again I would want to revise the questions to be a little more fun. Guy

I heard one of our district Advancement Committee guys make the statement "we like to see about 100 hours on that line" when pointing to the project workbook. He's since "retired", and our district is disappearing in a couple of months, so I'm not sure what "double-secret probation" rules-of-thumb the next guys are going to have. That kind of thing bothers me. Guy

One source is the Scout handbook: http://www.bsahandbook.org/ Try the "Hiking" selection under the "Campcraft" menu. Guy

I especially like the parts of "Remember the Titans" that follow that forming, storming, norming and performing biz. :-) Anyway, when my oldest was working on CitComm, I recorded a few movies on our DVR: Mr. Smith Goes To Washington Lean on Me A Civil Action Erin Brockovich We watched all of these over the course of several weeks, but when it came time to discuss a movie with his MBC, he only remembered "Lean on Me."

I know of a troop, which happens to have an ad hoc approach to forming groups on monthly outings (when it has them)...but "patrols" aren't usually functioning. Adults buy food, and usually do most of the cooking too. But here's the kicker: the last three major purchases by the troop were a large carport-type thing, a trailer, and a large 3-burner Camp Chef stove. In other words, the troop is not moving in a direction that supports patrols. There's another nearby troop (which was formed out of the one I mention above), that I think is kind of Webelos III style. They have one "patrol", which is pretty intact from when it was a single Webelos den. They are very active, but it is pretty much a father-son program. No SPL or PL in that troop -- it is kind of egalitarian. But at least the adults cook separately from the "patrol", but under the same tarp. At a camporee, I did catch a glimpse of their patrol cooking (I was judging a cooking competition, and seeing the process was part of the score). I noticed that while two young scouts were cooking, there was an adult standing about five feet away watching every step they were doing. I'm hard-pressed to think which one of those two "methods" is better than the other. Guy

Wow, B.S. -- what an opportunity! As Eagle92 suggested, you have an opportunity to do things right, from the start, with your new crop of parents. Sounds like you have the new youth, and existing patrols, covered for this outing with ASMs as backup. Some random thoughts: 1. basic indoctrination prior to the outing -- there is no harm in observing that every parent interacting with the troop needs to go through YP. Also a basic explanation of the buddy system, since those are the "prime directives" for youth protection. You could even talk a little about the G2SS and the limits that it places on troops and patrols. 2. what better way of describing the patrol method to parents than to have them live it? So for that reason, I love Eagle92's suggestions. Have them form as a patrol, come up with a menu and duty roster, and follow it through. 3. you can have them also experience Totin' Chip and Fireman Chit basic safety training, so they aren't tempted to do anything that a Scout wouldn't be able to do (for example, use of an axe outside of an axe yard). 4. talk over some of the advancement requirements, T to 1C, with them so they understand it is a progressive building of skills? The way I see it, there is absolutely nothing wrong with insisting that when it comes to "program" that the SM and ASMs are responsible for that, and that it takes special training. Guy

OakTree, I understand where you're coming from, but I can provide supporting data for my statement "if you ask me, it's not scouting" (the context of which was my own troop), but honestly I would find the extent of it rather embarrassing. What I'm speaking of isn't just, I feel, a breakdown of one method (Patrol Method), but it's a fundamental breakdown on virtually all eight methods. I'm sorry -- I'm hoping this response doesn't sound coy. My intention is to not sidetrack this thread any more than I already have. Please feel free to drop email to me, if you'd like to discuss it more. Guy

I find this line very telling, especially for an untrained Scoutmaster, "What do you want me do, cross out patrol before I sign it?" Because that is exactly what he's doing, figuratively-speaking. He's crossing out "Patrol" in several different places: in Aims and Methods, in handbooks ("XXXXXX Leader's Handbook" and "Senior XXXXXX Leader's Handbook"), and in operations. I could go on and on about problems I've seen in local troops, including my own. But sometimes I think the "Troop Method" has come about from helicoptering and impatience. Our "World's Oldest SPL" is extremely impatient. He just wants to do things, including leading from the front. He barks out orders because he can't stand to see things move so slowly. Questions about Patrol Method? He'll say "yeah, we're working on that" and then not change a single thing that he's doing. Fester that over any period of time, and I think you get lazy Scouts. They'd rather just have "the adults" set up the outings for them and tell them when to show up. Then they stop coming after awhile because it's the same old thing, year after year. Great way to suck the life out of what the program is supposed to be. Lots of newbie parents think that the goal of Scouting is to crank out Eagle Scouts. I led a session at a training event for Cub Scout parents this last weekend about Boy Scout advancement. My theme was that advancement is just one method and that there is whole lot more to the "design of the program" than cranking out Eagle Scouts. I'm not so sure that helicoptering, impatient parents and leaders really want to think that deeply about it. I think they're more into getting their son to Eagle and then moving on. Guy

I've been seeing, firsthand, adult-run advancement-oriented Eagle-mill troop method, operating with the "World's Oldest SPL" syndrome, and with great numbers of helicopter parents, and it's not pretty. If you ask me, it's also not Scouting. It may use the Boy Scout Handbook for "guidelines" to hand out Boy Scout related ranks, but it isn't really Scouting. I also know firsthand how hard it is to make small changes, one step at a time. It's funny how "troop method" can come about in a small step, but it takes years (!) to rebuild a troop to patrol method. There are lots of guys here, on this forum, that have offered their practical advice because they've rebuilt patrols and troops. It is not easy! If you want an easy solution, my recommendation is to find another troop that is run properly. The harder solution (but it may be right for your son and you) is to stay put and resist all efforts to become less patrol-oriented. Guy

boomerscout -- that's it! That's exactly the link I was mentioning. Thanks, Guy

About your ticket: I'm about six months into mine, and I'm almost half-complete. It's been a grind, so to speak, because I thought I would challenge myself. And I am. :-) We were heavily cautioned not to choose ticket items where success depends upon others. In fact, I thought it was fairly difficult to come up with ideas where that was the case. Just by luck, I seem to have goals that "sequence" well, with respect to the calendar. I think if I were to rewrite as of today, I would concentrate on realistic goals given an honest assessment of how much time I have to spend on Scouting. For example, I have a district role, but my ticket wasn't written around that, it was written around my ASM role. There are times, though, that my district role needs attention, at the expense of everything else, including ticket work.

Thought of this just as I hit "submit" :-) My older son always seemed to have trouble with depth perception when hiking on rocky terrain (such as our hikes in the White Mtns). So I bought both of us a set of poles. He moves much faster now. BTW, I found two sets of discounted "closeouts" at rei-outlet.com. Good price. Under $50 each set, at the time. Guy

I wish I could find the link right now, but I saw a page once, written by an ultra-light backpacker, a dad, who went to Philmont. He had an interesting perspective (and a gear list). As far as hiking poles go, I like them (I was a staunch holdout too!), but I found that one by itself was useless for me. A pair worked better. Guy

I've seen it all over the place, depending upon the units involved. One very active pack and troop in an adjacent town has separate ceremonies. The way the Scoutmaster of the troop put it, "the troop owns the crossover." There are plenty of units that would disagree with that statement. The packs I've seen directly do a combined 2-part ceremony for Arrow of Light and crossover, inviting the receiving troops to run the ceremony. Last year, for my younger son, I rewrote that ceremony a little, mostly because it was very cumbersome (I dropped about 15 minutes from it!), and it put more of the Arrow of Light responsibility on the pack. The one thing that I wish would change is the way that one pack (our troop's "feeder pack") handles it. They use the Blue and Gold as an end-of-year awards banquet, in June, and they hold almost all awards until then! Their Cubmaster last year is this year's Webelos Den Leader...he's already said "we'll be done early" (meaning well before June) so I said "great, let's cross them over when they're ready." For good reason -- we want to get them camping with the troop before a July summer camp time. But -- he's resisting a little. It's like he thinks their Blue and Gold will be less special. My argument to him is that they can still honor the new Scouts in an Arrow of Light ceremony, but in fact, give them the award and crossover a few months before. Anyway -- we'll see. Guy

No problem, Skip -- sometimes that "o" key does stick, especially with caffeine contributing. I joined in May '71, and was working on 1C by that same fall. I probably finished in Spring of '72. I didn't have the pre-'72 handbook, but may have had a copy from one of my older brothers. So, the '72 handbook was one I used, but I think I was already working on Star by the time it came out. The "important parts" of the '72 program revision for me were the patrol leader training and the leadership corps (is Rick spitting out his coffee at the moment?). I do remember noticing that one could pretty much earn Eagle with Swimming/Lifesaving, and camping, and I thought revising rank requirements for skill awards was kind of goofy. (personally, I have a feeling about what happened -- someone at national got the idea that immediate recognition was important, and fell in love with belt baubles -- so much so that when the skill award disappeared, the idea was salvaged, or reused, at the CS level...so we still have the Academics and Sports program now, for Cubs; not that immediate recognition is a bad thing -- my troop used to hand out colored beads that we wore on a leather lace hanging from our belts; but those were more for events, not rank requirements) When going through that leadership training, I didn't think one way or the other about it. It was all new stuff for me, and it wasn't that boring. The novel idea, for our troop at the time, was that patrol leaders went off on weekend training, which was run by the SPL and our SM. Guy

AKdenldr -- my memory doesn't work as well as it should, so I didn't specify the years. Greenbar Bill, who is sort of like the maven of the Patrol Method (a young gentleman named Roland Philips, who died in WWI, was the maven of B-P's Patrol System), wrote Boy Scout handbooks prior to 1972, and then I think he came out of retirement to write the handbook that replaced the '72 one, maybe around 1978. He also wrote Scoutmaster Handbooks, and on this I'm a little more foggy. There is one great (!) 2-volume set called the 3rd edition set. I found copies by perusing used copies on amazon.com. One of them was a little pricey, but that's because it was in excellent condition (one that smells a little mildewed was downright cheap). By the way, here is a link to a scan of Philips "Patrol System" writings: http://www.thedump.scoutscan.com/Patrol%20System.pdf The idea being, of course, that since Greenbar Bill (officially, William Hillcourt) was someone who more or less invented the concept of Patrol Method for the BSA, drawing heavily on his own experiences, and that of B-P's Patrol System. If you understand the idea behind the Patrol Method, then I think you can easily see why the Webelos Den is structured the way it is, especially if you're lucky enough to have a good Den Chief. Guy

Skip, Klose not Kloose. :-) (sometimes I get Klouse and Klaus too -- still waiting for a Kloise) The amazon description isn't very good, but I think the reviews are more telling: http://www.amazon.com/Scoutmasters-Other-Handbook-Mark-Ray/dp/0965120732/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267016277&sr=1-1 Lots of ideas and resources. Not a bad value for $12.78. If you've been around the block for awhile, maybe not as useful. Fills in some of the practical gaps that the standard manual doesn't fill. I also found a 3rd edition SM Handbook via amazon. Honestly, I think the 3 "must have" resources for a new/novice SM would be the regular SM Handbook, the 3rd edition, and the Ray book. That stuff, and a few online resources, then you probably have just about everything anyone would ever need. Guy

There are elements of what everybody is saying that I agree with too, especially Twocubdad's assertion that "time as a yute" member should make a difference. I had time as a youth member, and a little bit of time as a Cub leader, but signed up for the next course scheduled in our council after I had signed on as an ASM with a troop. I was ready, and the part I thought is really valuable is that I knew some of the staff and participants, but not all. Now, I feel as if I know more than 3/4 of them, some of them very closely. In my Owl Patrol (who?), Owl Patrol NE-I-267, we ranged in experience from someone who had been a Cub Den Leader for a year, and felt that he wanted to prepare to become a Cubmaster, to a Scoutmaster with a couple of years of experience, to an ASM of a few years of experience, to a district training chair with about 15 years of experience. All of us are maybe ages 35 to 55. A congenial, laid-back and wise group. I've run into a few people, for example on our troop committee, that kind of have an attitude of "why would I want to sign up for that?" I'd have to say that if you have that kind of an attitude, WB would not be for you. But I would say that if you want more out of the Scouter experience, WB is the way to go. Guy

At this point, I wish the workshop would not have been named "Trainer's EDGE" because it has so very little to do with EDGE training (granted, I don't think "Train the Trainers" is any better of a name). Guy

AKdenldr -- if you're anticipating "crossing over" as well, to Boy Scouts, as an adult leader, there is nothing wrong with seeking out training early! In fact, you can start by investing 20 minutes or so to do the "Fast Start" that is part of online training. You can also find the manuals at the local Scout shop -- most are reasonably priced, around $10. Reading up on troop committee functions, and Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster roles wouldn't be a bad thing. You could even go "old school" (which a former frequent contributor on this forum suggests) and seek out Boy Scout Handbooks and Scoutmaster Handbooks written by Greenbar Bill, "patron saint" of this forum. There is also a very practical book for sale, which you can find on amazon.com, called "The Scoutmaster's Other Handbook." Or maybe just check out "The Patrol Method" subforum that is part of this forum. There is lots of practical advice in it, and there are several SMs and ASMs who participate that are looking to rebuild the youth-led method in their own troops. But most of all, I would suggest this: get them outdoors, and out of meeting rooms, sitting at tables. Do something. Get them hooked on activity. Guy

BDPTOO -- the focus of Trainer's EDGE isn't really on EDGE, although there is one segment (may a half hour at most) in it that *does* focus on EDGE. So out of six hours total, maybe a half hour is devoted to EDGE. Although I can't remember as far back as my Woodbadge course this last fall, there was a similar amount of time devoted to EDGE there too. Although I didn't go through the earlier course, I heard that was a "Train the Trainers" course that preceded Trainer's EDGE. I'm not sure how much of the content is identical, but the overall focus is on much more than just EDGE. Guy

Thanks for the followup, OGE -- as a recap, I had my last session last night too, which included delivering a 10-minute presentation to a small group. I put a lot of work into mine, because it is a small part of what I am going to deliver at a function this coming Saturday morning (the event is interesting -- our district is doing a Cub Scout Chuck Wagon, sort of, and because there is little for parents to do during that time, we offer parents some informal training on the Scouting program -- my session is called "Trail to Eagle" an overview of Boy Scout advancement). But the two others in my small group spent little effort on their presentations and it showed. Both were out of their comfort zones, too. Overall, I think you've summarized the intent of Trainer's EDGE very well. My biggest feedback is that I think some of the content is stale, and could use some refreshing. Our course followed the syllabus (which you can find online) exactly. During our course, I thought some of the trainers/presenters (there were at least six people involved, and each had a small section of the course) were awkward, and unrehearsed. But I learned last night that most of them were also going through the same course, and received training cards too. That changes my impression of the course quite a bit -- all along I was thinking that "gosh, he could be using some of the advice that we learned about earlier." Turns out I was more right that I thought. :-) Am I glad I went through it? Sure -- I did pick up some things that I wouldn't have learned otherwise. But there was at least four hours of content that was either common sense or rehash for me. Guy