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AnaMaria, Action Packers work fine. Some thoughts beyond what Narraticong said: I would get smaller plastic containers or zip-type plstic bags for clothes. This allows removal from box in rain and opening in tent for dry clothes. Ditto any dried foodstuffs. I am assuming Car-type camping as no one want to haul packers any distance so consider smaller packers for the boys or for yourself. this gives you the ability to keep them out of at least one (keeps it dry and organized). :-) Enjoy the time with your boys. As they get bigget, time to consider bigger/additional tentage. Enjoy your outings. YiS, Rick

gwd-scouter, You are correct in what YOU had to do. The error was on the Pack. They, in effect, transferred two boys that were NOT in the Pack. The problem then becomes yours. Do you A: Charge the youths $10 as new Scouts or B: Cross them over as Webelos and therefore transfer them to your Troop? Also, do your boys pay every year or does the Troop recharter them from dues/money earning projects? The policy I used when I was directly involved (CM and ASM) was transfer fee for Webelos and new registration for anyone not registered. The Troop paid for recharter from dues/fundraising so the boys did not pay $10 each year. Never had an unregistered Webelos transfer. YiS, Rick

Not trained as SS but curios: Do you have to recognize pennants? If so "Flags Aplenty" or "Pennant perchance" You can allways add Historical Nautical lore such as terms like starbard/larbard, Lee, Mizzen,... Research the histories of them and add them as a catagory "Nautical History". I'm sure there are a few old Botswain Mates that have some good words or historical quotes (usable by Scouts) that can be researched. Just my $0.02 Rick

Been reading this awhile and guess I have to include my $0.02: To quote National: "Incorporating leadership concepts that are used in corporate America, the course teaches participants the basics of listening, communicating, valuing people, team development, situational leadership, problem solving, and managing conflict. Once the skill is learned, each member is given the opportunity to use the skill as a member of a successful working team. At the conclusion of the course, each participant develops a set of personal goals related to his or her Scouting role. Working toward these goals allows each participant to practice and demonstrate new skills. " Whereas WB used to be the "Pinnacle of Scouter training". Used to be that you would see a Scouter with WB beads and know that that person knew quite a lot about the program they WB'ed in. Now-adays, a brand new Tiger Den-Leader with less than one year can earn WB beads and still not know what the cubs need for advancement. So what is the new "Pinnacle"? What training is there for the Scouter to teach the outdoor skills that s/he can teach to his Pack/Troop? How can s/he teach that Scouting is a game that teaches in the outdoors when s/he may not know them? WB used to be about the program. Now it is about the management. How is WB different from a Covey (sp?) course in management? What does Covey know of tracking, pioneering, Day Camp, Camporees, Webelorees, Tote-n-Chip, or any other thing the boys like doing? I also regret that I did not go through the old WB course, although I would have to have gone through the Cub Scouter Course then. The new one is NOT worthless but is not a Scouting specific training either. Agin, just my $0.02. I would like some of the Outing put back in Scouting. YiS, Rick

Thanks guys, My application will be delivered to Council on Wednesday. Hope I can live up to the ideals (I think are required). YiS, Rick

lagoscouter, Welcome! Pull up a log and sit by the virtual campfire. There is a wide depth of experience and many converging/diverging opinions here. Lots of information, mostly good. A virtual "roundtable" for you (as you have stated you do not have one yet). Again, welcom. Yours in Scouting (YiS), Rick

Welcome ALL, Pull up a log and join the vertual campfire. All are welcome and even the newest have things to contribute as they are not entrenched with "this is how I've allways done it". We all learn from thinking outside the box but inside the rules. Hope you enjoy. Be looking for your posts. Yours in Scouting (YiS), Rick

This is a timely post. I have wanted to be an adult volunteer in the OA since the early 90's. In panama, the adults had to meet the same requirements (camping nights, ect) as the boy (just not the 1st class req). Then the boys voted for the adult. The SM was always voted in. This year, not being involved with a Troop (I am DAC), the District nominated me and I received my letter. Now I wonder if I should go. I am not as young as I used to be. I can no longer camp long term (I have sleep apnia) withought getting extremely tired. I am not sure how much service I can give to the Lodge (as I still do NOT know the intracasies of the OA). Maybe some of you Brotherhood members can help me decide. Thanks. YiS, Rick

Kahits, The one I am running, in the Fall, will be "Heritage Remembered". Not sure if Council has a name for theirs yet. YiS, Rick

Way to Go!! Just remember to keep the fun in it for your Crew. "all work and no play..."

Kahits, You know, you can use the fun stuff from any/all camporees with no winners/losers. Still have events and judges but no scoring. I am running the Fall Camporee here and have chosen events from the 1910 handbook as the Council Camporee/Jampboree next year will be using events from it as well. I am just getting the boys ready for it in a fun/safe environment. YiS, Rick

Skipper, You did EXACTLY right. I am trying to wake my SM's up to the idea that THEY are the gatekeepers for MB's. Not roadblocks nor drive-thru windows. If they approve a boy going to MB University or, heaven forbid, MB Camporee, they are responsible for the type of Scout they get and the dis-service they provided the scout by allowing it. Keep up the good work. The youth will learn more and appreaciate it more due to learning. YiS, Rick

Definately avoid this event at all cost. If I were on your district/Council advancement, I would thank all the merit badge counselors that approve of this event for their service and tell them their service is no longer required. They obviously do NOT understand the Merit Badge process or actual requirements. Just my $0.02 Rick

Very nice. You are rightfully proud of your son. YiS, Rick

I agree with Eagle92 and LisaBob, Camperships are a nescessity, especially in these times, but we are teaching the boys self-reliance as well. Sweat equity is a good way to be self reliant. There may also be items that the IH/Troop need done that are within the youth's (and/or parents) ability as well. It is wrong to tell someone that you can't go to camp because you're poor. It's just not the Scout way... just my $0.02 YiS, Rick

Welcome aboard Chief. This is the place for the real "no shi##rs" and good scuttlebut. Even get good info from one of Uncle Sams Misguided Children (an intelligent Gunny). Fair winds and a following seas to ya. YiS, Rick

Wow! Here's my $0.02 for what it is worth: Asking the Scout to bring his HB is a good idea. Making it a requirement for advancement makes it someone elses Scouting organization. The Scout had to have had the book signed off by his SM for him to be reccomended to the BOR by his SM. In effect, you have denied the Scout the advancement (and the ability to start the clock on the next advancement) based on your own rules and regs. not the BSA rules. The Scout can challange it and get the date changed back to the original if he wishes to go that way. Why, as adults, do we have to show the youth that we can not follow the rules while demanding that they do? Just my $0.02 Rick

Thanks guys, Yes, I do training for Council and District for the Training Chair. Yes I do believe that one of my many responsabilities, even without authority, is to "ensure BSA procedures are standard throughout the District" and to train volunteers about not adding/deleting requirements (with exception to physical or mental limitations). I do NOT think I did anything wrong Beavah. I made my statemant, did NOT get confrontational, and reported to DE. I did NOT overstep my authority as I did NOT tell the SM that he could not run a Troop or anything that infringed upon his running of the Troop. My job is NOT to hide in the sand either. I would love to work with the Unit Commissioner for that unit and teh Council Advancement Chair if I ever meet them. I attend Roundtable and the Commisssioners/Committee metings for the District and have yet to meet them. That is why I came here for council. I know there is no cut and dry response and I thank all of you for your time and thoughts. Thanks Kudu but the cave man had to kill the animals for food. I am not going to ask the scouts to start killing livestock to store up nor kill the family pets either. I'd rather they, or their parents, went to the store to buy the food. Again, Thanks all. YiS, Rick

The problem is NOT having the youth train/educate the Scout, the problem is the blue card signature. No Merit Badge can be signed-off by anyone other than a registered merit badge counselor. If it is, the SM/Advancement committee can disqualify the merit badge. Here again, it is not the camp or the counselor that is being shortchanged, it is the Scout. Yes, we in Scouting need more adult volunteers. But slight of hand manuvers are NOT the Scouting way. We need to tell the adults that the boys will miss out on something becuase of lack of volunteers or charge more so we can hire them. YiS, Rick

Guys, I have a problem. Background: I was appointed as the Boy Scout District Advancement Chair. The District has a lot of trained, experienced, Scouters. I was appointed, according to my DE, "because we needed to break the good old boy network" and get things back on target. I am new to this District but not new to Scouting. The old Advancement Chair went to Council and was appointed as Eagle Advancement Chair and I was told that he would handle all Eagle items. Problem: At the last Roundtable, one of our SM's said "I require my Eagle candidates to have at least six (6) 50 milers under thier belt before they can apply for Eagle". I stated that BSA does NOT allow us to change requirements and he stated that BSA National requirements are "garbage". This gentleman is, from all appearances, otherwise a GREAT SM. Because it was stated in public, I informed my DE of the remark. He smiled and said he would pass it up the chain. I know nothing will be done as the District has known of this for years. How do I, as Advancement Chair, ignore this? What will keep other SM's from adding their own requirments if nothing is done? I can't quit the position as I used it for a WB Ticket (Successfuilly serve a District position as selected by the District). But can I succesfully serve if I ignore a blatant violation??? I am open to suggestions. Thanks in advance. YiS, Rick

Have a safe trip. See you on-line Monday.

Wow. A lot of posts for this question. Here's my $0.02 for what it is worth: I have actually seen push-ups used in Scouting as well as military like formations. Patrols, squads, command posts,... But I, as a BSA member observing this was curious as to wether that would work in the US. I don't know but I do think our youth, in general, need more discipline. The "PC" bull-pucky of "Use your inside voice" or "you're getting a time-out" does NOT seem to be working. The general youth have less respect for their seniors than ever. They expect to be pampered till death (I'm not willing to wait till they change their mind so death may be an exageration). Somehow, our society came to the conclussion, and government got on the bandwagon, that children should not be diciplined, even by their own parents. I say this because some places have "laws" that state the maximum number of spanks you may give your child at one time before they can arrest you for child abuse! I believe, in the Portland Area, it is three (3) spanks. BSA has people that cover the gambut. Military, civillian, thin, portly, tall, small, young and old. We all agreed to follow BSA policy within the BSA and the "Promise" and "Law" of our selected area (Cub/Boy). As stated, push-ups are physical fitness. A good leader knows that the error of the group is also his/her error and if push-ups are what they think are called for, they do them too. Just my $0.02

Eamonn, Personnaly, I did not. Like John, most of my Patrol had experienced leaders except for one gntleman with one year Tiger Cub experience. He still did not know the CS program very well and was lost in BS/Venture. Personnaly, I wish I had attended the OLD WB course. I had GREAT respect for the graduates as they KNEW their program. Some new WB people do not even know their position that well, never mind the program. I will step off the soapbox now with this: If I wanted a "Covey" type management course, I would have attended it. I wanted a top level Scouting Skills course but got Covey type. Oh well. YiS, Rick

Darn shame. Good joke there Bevah. You got me hook line and sinker. Too bad it seems so plossible. Maybe because National has done so much for National and so little for the volunteer that we believed this. Makes one stop and think, if I thought this was true, what does it say about the organization I am supporting? I realize that we are "in it for the boys" but we have to follow National BSA rules/regs.... Will make me rethink, maybe I am being a fool by volunteering... YiS, Rick

Hope someone from National is listening: With fees like that, I will no doubt reluctantly decide NOT to volunteer in the future. I realize that BSA is not in this for the fun of it, they need to make a profit, but I have to pay to be an instructor as well. They may not realize that some instructors have to purchase thier own equipment, provide thier own "BSA reccomended" handouts, pay for travel, and then, sometimes pay for the course too so that they can receive a patch. Gives a whole new meaning for volunteer. Reminds me of the acronym for NAVY: Never Again Vonunteer Yourself YiS, Rick