GernBlansten

"What should they do?" Continue to deliver the program as they see fit. I have no optimism that BSA would reverse its stance on the DRP and alleviate all the legal/social issues. Forums like this are read by the folks who can make the change. Planting the seeds of change is all we can do. Changing hearts and minds. Scouting is too good to let it languish at the hands of a few misguided professionals. There are so many boys out there that we can reach.

LH, my comments were Boy Scouts specific. I have no training or knowledge of the Cub Scout program, nor Venture or LFL. The only religious requirement to be in and advance in Boy Scouts is the DRP. After you sign the DRP (which isn't even spelled in complete text on the application), there are no other. A scout can advance to the highest honors of scouting and never complete a requirement that is religious based. The Duty to God in the oath is universally accepted to be too vague to measure for advancement. Didn't the chief scout state that believing in a rock was enough? Just imagine if Duty To Self had the same weight.

The DRP is the only religious based requirement in BSA. Once signed, its up to the unit to follow through with whether they wish to make religion a key component to the program. There is no universal application of religion to the program and many have stated it plays very little in their own units. If the DRP were not used to restrict membership, it would serve no other purpose but to create a false impression of the role of religion in most BSA units. If BSA wants to be a religious organization, then by all means retain the DRP and reinforce it by altering the program to make religion a core component universally delivered by every unit. If not, then drop it and let the unit decide how they want to deliver it.

Measuring Scout spirit? I can measure it against my opinion of what it should be. The old "I'm thinking of a number" game. Johnny, you have earned 82 of a possible 100 spirit points. I can measure it against what I see in his peers. You know, Johnny, in my opinion, shows great scout spirit. Tommy is about 52.5% of Johnny. I can measure it on a bell curve where 75% of scouts show 50% of the spirit. Only those scouts within 2 standard deviations to the right of the median, have scout spirit. The rest need to work on it. Or we can just chalk up scout spirit as an ideal to be reached, as defined by the scout and coached by the leadership.

EPalmer, I've heard the Eagle before Driver's License game several times in my troop. Seems to be the only thing to get these boys to work on their Eagle. I'm not sure its right, but it does work. In every case, we never saw those boys after they got their Eagle. I also know a father who bribed his son with a car (not new). His family also had a rule that he couldn't have a car until he was 18. Needless to say, the scout got his Eagle 2 weeks before turning 18. How do I know this? I sold him the car

Hunt, what value does the DRP provide BSA besides creating the membership barrier?

I, Me, Mine George Harrison All through the day I me mine, I me mine, I me mine All through the night I me mine, I me mine, I me mine Mow they're frightened of leaving it Everyone's reading it comin' on strong all the time All through the day I me mine I me me mine, I me me mine I me me mine All I can hear I me mine, I me mine, I me mine Even those tears I me mine, I me mine, I me mine No one's frightened of playing it Everyone's saying it Flowing more freely that wine All through the day I me mine I me me mine, I me me mine I me me mine All I can hear I me mine, I me mine, I me mine Even those tears I me mine, I me mine, I me mine No one's frightened of playing it Everyone's saying it Flowing more freely that wine All through the life I me mine(This message has been edited by GernBlansten)

To tell you the truth, I don't know what service the SE, or DE for that matter, provide. I'm not saying its not valuable, but from the unit level, its either pretty transparent or under appreciated. My impression is that if the council is financially sound, the camps run smoothly and there are plenty of training opportunities, the SE is doing a good job. But how much of that is the volunteers and how much is the pros? Don't know. I suspect that most of the program stuff is a direct result of volunteers and most of the finance stuff is the pros. You need both. No schism here. Move along folks. Nothing to see here.

Survivorman boiled water in his hat with hot rocks. Pretty cool.

Nothing holds an 8yr olds attention like watching water freeze. How about the Mentos in the diet Coke myth?

I have zero contact with the pros, except the district secretary processing Eagle apps and tour permits. I did meet my DE once, nice enough guy but surprisingly young. My entire exposure to adult scouters is the unit level volunteer types. So my opinion is non-existent when it comes to the pros. Perhaps if I volunteered at the District or Council level, my attitude would be different.

Beavah, who I think is an officer of the court (at least from his writings on the topic), stated in another thread that the tour permit has nothing to do with BSA insurance coverage. I bow to his expertise.

In a twist, the Boy Scouts of America filed its own lawsuit, claiming "unknown Scouts, on their own free time" started a new fire that spread. The lawsuit filed against three unnamed people acknowledged that the Scouts were unsupervised. That complaint is wrapped up in the federal lawsuit against the Boy Scouts of America. That paragraph just shivers me timbers! Is the BSA retaliating against minor scouts, the councilors or some leaders? I'd sure like to know the details of the BSA suit.

Well assuming that most units (non-fundamentalist charter orgs) make religion a personal growth choice of the scouts and not a mandatory element, and that there are no religious requirements for advancement, there would be no legal issue with public schools chartering. The DRP doesn't cover the homosexual prohibition, but as previously noted, there is no check-box on the application for that.

What do you think about my idea that BSA could open its membership to anyone, but with the understanding that they will be exposed to religious program content? Wouldn't that require dropping the DRP as I have advocated here for over a year? Is there a difference between your idea and mine? Not speaking for Merilyn but if your idea was adopted, he wouldn't have a dog in this fight anymore would he? Schools and fire departments could charter packs again. The US Military could support the Jamboree. Balboa Park controversy would go away. Thousands of boys would suddenly be eligible to join. Free thinking parents wouldn't just throw the recruiting flyer in the trash. Boys could invite all their friends to join.

The BSA forces no one to become a member or stay a member. If any adult has a serious disagreement with the DRP (Declaration of Religious Principle), then they should not complete a BSA membership application. Adult leaders and scouts agree to the DRP when they apply for membership. How would dropping the DRP effect the program? Would it make religion any less of a component? Would it effect your enjoyment of scouting? The DRP is divisive and causes the majority of BSA's image problems. IMHO, this is the primary reason BSA is facing a declining membership.

The Elvis club analogy works for me, but for a different reason. Obviously, you would want to limit membership to those who think Elvis is King, because loving Elvis is a core component/value to the club, those hating Elvis would not want to join. But there might be those who love Elvis, but hate Las Vegas. Although Las Vegas is related to Elvis and some might consider Las Vegas and Elvis inseparable, it would be wrong to exclude those who despise Sin City from the Elvis club. If in the Elvis Club Oath, one needs to face Las Vegas when singing it, would that make Las Vegas a core component to the club and be the primary membership gate?

There are some here that claim the BSA is controlled by religious fundamentalists. Thats a strange and interesting observation. If this assessment true, then why does the BSA allow religious diversity among its members? Because of the legal battles and public stances taken by the BSA in enforcing the DRP, it comes across as a religious fundamentalist organization to those who do not know the inner workings and policies. Perception is reality. I am not a religious fundamentalist and I choose not to associate with those organizations. When I was young, scouting was not what I thought it had become. But, the recent court battles tainted my view. Why was BSA fighting so hard in court to be a religious organization? Did they change since I was a youth member? Had I not been open to give scouting a 3 month trial period when my son joined, I would have retained that perception. Not many people are willing to do that, but my son really wanted to join. American families have plenty of activities competing for their children's time and interest. My experience with my unit has changed that perception. Now that I'm inside looking out, I can understand why I felt that way, but it wasn't warranted. But perception is reality. BSA does itself a disservice forcing the DRP on membership, especially since religion is not a core component to the program, IMHO. They should drop the DRP, but retain everything else.

Out of curiosity, just how many boys can you name off the top of your head that have been officially excluded by the evil BSA, because I can name several with atheist parents who were not. More than we can measure. I've come across many parents who would will not even consider scouting for their sons because of the BSA fundamentalist religious image. In fact, I joined reluctantly. My reluctance was primarily because of my impression that the BSA was just a youth organization for the religious right. I didn't want my son being preached to, I didn't want him indoctrinated into a right wing syncopate. I gave it three months to see if the image matched reality. In the case of my troop, it didn't. We stayed, I got involved in leadership. If my suspicions had been confirmed, I'd have pulled my son out and found another venue.

SE salary should be tied to performance just like any other commission based executive position. Give the executive a relatively low base salary with a commission on revenue generated in excess of expenses. If the council does well, the SE does well. Looks like this scenario has not historically followed that model as the compensation would have increased at the same rate as the council revenues. But it follows the trend in most of corporate America where some executives make 100s of times more than the workers.

I've had a Lowa for years, was like made for my foot. The new Lowa didn't fit the same. Got a Montrail for Philmont instead. Still not as good a fit as my old Lowa but acceptable. Gonna try some Superfeet in them to see if it helps.

Nah, Trev. I learned in Wilderness First Aid that all you need for a AED is two wet coconut halfs, a glass rod and a wool sweater. "OK Johnny, I'll hold the coconuts on his chest, you rub the rod real fast with the sweater then touch my left ear with it. READY? CLEAR!"

When my son crossed over, our troop was in transition. It had a long history of being a Webelos 3 troop and quite successful at it. It was really just a high adventure and camping club. Many of the older boys enjoyed it that way. That SM retired a couple of years before my son joined. A rough transition took place, with a different SM every year. The troop was on the fast track to extinction. Finally, a dedicated scouter took the SM slot and started the long path back to BSA ideals. Three of us new scout dads got trained as ASMs and came back full of good intentions to go boy led. That was two years ago. The remaining older scouts resented the change to the patrol method and more work being put on them. That increased their attrition rate. However, it increased our recruiting dramatically. 80% of our scouts are now under 13 and our numbers are increasing. I'm hopeful these new scouts can be formed into a model example of the patrol method. It hasn't worked well with the old guard, they just aren't interested in leading. I wish this all happened two years before we joined. Its been difficult for my son but now he has an opportunity to set things right.

A troop located in downtown Denver would have to get 5280. It would also have to be a high adventure troop. A troop whose CO was a scouter forum might get 500. Of course a troop who didn't get rechartered in time might get 86.

And now for something completely obscure.... A soccer varsity crew 66, you can get your kicks in crew 66. A patrol named the Dr. Peppers in Troop 1024. A troop 247 sponsored by a convienence store, this troop never sleeps. A computer hobby venture crew 10100100. Troop 42, who calculate the answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything. Thank you very much, I'm here all week, tip your waitress and try the veal.