GernBlansten

My recommendation is give them a cookbook of instructions on how to build and update a website on something like GoDaddy. Then give them a template site on CD. Show them how to modify the template and upload it to the server. Nothing advanced like SQL, Java. Just the basic HTML.

FScouter, I disagree. The purpose of the tour permit process is to make us go through the thought process to verify all our activities are within BSA guidelines. The tour permit itself cannot guarantee that, nor can BSA. It does not protect us, or keep us safe from litigation. It does not guarantee that those who fill it out and submit it will follow BSA rules. Its up to us trench soldiers to follow the guidelines. I will submit that without the permit process, many of our fellow scouters would simply not comply with BSA guidelines, but because of it, they do. In that small way, it is a valuable tool.

I'm not a lawyer, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn once. Negligence would only be an out if the paperwork neglected would have adverted the incident. In the case where every requirement of the tour permit was met (licensed drivers, correct # of seat belts, insurance limits, etc), but the paperwork not submitted and approved by BSA, the lack of the paperwork would be irrelevant in any litigation since it would not have any bearing on the outcome of the incident. I'm not suggesting that scouters not do the paperwork, but I find tour permits to be just that, paperwork. It does make me go through the hoops. Without the tour permit, I probably wouldn't request the info from every driver, but I see no value added beyond that. Especially since my council rubber stamps every tour permit submitted.

Trev, Did I mention that our trek started from our back yard? So it was MY country for a couple hundred yards before entering God's country. One of the benefits of living adjacent to the forest. Actually, had there been a fire ring in our treasured site, we probably would have had a small campfire that night. Wet spring this year and so far, no fire ban. But we would have packed out our ash pile the next morning. I routinely pick up litter from campsites and trails we pass and haul it out, but refuse to remove ashes and campfire trash others routinely leave. I figure if they get tired of camping in their own rubbish, perhaps they will quit camping entirely. But I can only hope. Of those who must have campfires on campouts, how many of you clean out the fire pits and take it with you?

If you have a health and safety problem, can't think of a better person to assign the task of resolving it. If you don't have a health and safety problem, I can't think of a better person to assign the task of resolving it. If they continue to complain after assigning them the responsibility to solve the problem, then kindly ask them to resign their responsiblity to someone more qualified and stop their complaining or leave. I really should be on TV like Dr. Phil shouldn't I? ;-{)

We have been in a drought in the Rockies for the past 6 years. Fire bans start in May, go through the first snow in October. State wide. Everyone pretty much gets used to not having campfires except in developed campsites or violates the law. My son and I did a back country trip last weekend. Hiked into the national forest following game trails up an unnamed stream. The first campsite we passed about a half mile in, had a giant fire ring, overflowing with broken beer bottles, ashes and spent shotgun shells, really a shame. Another mile in, we passed another campsite with a smaller fire ring. No trash, but recently used. Another mile of bushwacking we came upon another campsite with a fire ring filled with moss and a lone pull top lid from a can of beans. I have no idea how long it would take moss to grow in a fire ring, but I got to believe many many years. But the pull top was one of those safety types, so only a few years old at most. I grabbed the poptop and put it in my pack. Yet another mile in and 500 feet higher, we came across the prettiest of all the campsites. A flat clearing with a stream flowing through it, a downed tree crossing the stream just inviting someone to sit on it and watch the brookies. No campfire ring (I was shocked). No sign a human even entered that clearing before. Elk tracks in the mud, some rather large fresh bear scat and a noisy hawk soaring overhead. Never in a million years would I think about building a fire ring there. Didn't even cross my mind. The ambiance of the stream, the hawk, wind in the trees was enough for us. Needless to say, we practice low impact camping and the next morning, the only sign we left was some slightly bent grass where our tent once stood. I hope to return to that spot someday, and still find no fire ring. There are still good campsites out there, you just got to push pass the ones where people think campfires, firearms and alcohol are a necessary to enjoy the forest.

Blast this software! Can't edit my previous post. [sARCASM] Insert Sarcasm here... [/sARCASM]

Proper XML tagging for sarcasm would be Insert sarcasm here

I've been told that camp soap won't cause diarrhea, but I cannot find any reference on it. Tell you what Ed, take a squirt of camp soap between the cheek and gum and get back to us on how your gut feels. Just kidding, but I would be curious the results.

Interesting that the article didn't indicate that one source of diarrhea is ingested soap residue. My wilderness first aid instructor claimed that most backcountry intestinal distress is caused by incomplete rinsing of dishes, not bacteria.

Trev, Don't get my wrong. I like campfires ... kinda ... I guess I tolerate them. I don't like the smoke that always follows me, the smell of my clothes the next week, the fact that the scouts most interested in starting the fire are not the same ones who want to stay up tending it, the constant reminding of young scouts that what goes in the fire stays in the fire. Aside from all that, they are ok, but I could live an equally fruitful life without them.

Frustration can be on the other end of spectrum too. Case in point, one of our scouts was 1 night shy of the OA minimum camping last election. The SM had ruled that our Northern Tiers trip was a long term camp and couldn't be counted. I appealed that it wasn't a resident camp since we broke camp every day and reset every night. No dining hall, no showers, cat holes, LNT, real camping. But he thought because it was 7 contiguous nights, it was a long term camp and didn't qualify. Very frustrating.

What would Mary Cheney do?

Gonzo, the challenge to you is do you have the patience and grace to endure the transgressions while you work to rectify the situation? If so, great! Otherwise, you will probably create a situation that could drive the unit in the opposite direction, and in an extreme case, drive a wedge so deep that it destroys it.

In most situations (unless extraordinary measures are taken), campfires violate LNT and should never be part of low impact back-country camping. There's nothing more disheartening to find the perfect campsite only to find a trash and ash filled fire ring 3 times the necessary size taking up the best tent site. In my area, wildfire dangers are usually so high during the camping season, they are outlawed anyways, even in developed campsites, winter and spring being the only seasons wet enough to be permitted. Our council summer camps don't have traditional campfires, replacing the ceremonial nightly campfire with a propane fueled log. Fire building is a great survival skill we should be teaching our scouts, but we also need to make them aware of increasing restrictions and impact these campfires cause. If we are camping outside developed campsites, chances are we will have a cold camp. Last summer, we spent 7 days in the Northern Tiers without a single campfire (wildfire danger). Heading to Philmont next month for 12 days, I don't expect to have a single campfire there either. Those of us in the western US just have to get used to not having campfires at every campout. Campfires are ceremonial. Stoves are for cooking. If you're cold, put on a sweater.

Gosh, I heard that on the radio today. I've been trying to condition the scouts that someday, campfires will only be a memory. The insect thing does make sense though and we all know that the majority of campers we come across do not practice LNT with campfires. In Outdoor Leadership Training I took last year, the instructors were pushing campfires are ceremonial, stoves are for cooking, clothes are for warmth.

Gonzo, Sounds like you landed in a troop that is incompatible with your idea of a perfect troop. In most situations, a troop getting a dedicated, program minded new leader would be a great thing, but you mentioned one thing that make this situation untenable. Good Ol' Boys. If they are entrenched, you will die a death of a thousand cuts with these guys. From their perspective, you are the unwanted crusader trying to rock the boat. Every transgression from the ideal unit will grate on you, leaving you more and more frustrated and unhappy. In my opinion, I'd bring up the issues with committee and the SM and see how entrenched they are. If it looks like they aren't gonna budge, then quietly search for another unit. You ain't doing your son any favors keeping him there if you are gonna be so miserable.

Showers at summer camp? Surely you jest.

Looking at the mileage computer on Dodgezilla as I drive the scouts, I do some mental gymnastics to help justify my carbon footprint. If the computer reads 12 MPG but I have 4 passengers, that means I'm getting 48 virtual MPG. 60 VMPG if I squeeze another scout in the back seat. When filling up the thirsty beast, I mentally replace the unit of measure to quarts. Gas is still less than a buck a quart in my parts! Its all in the perspective. Now where did we put that energy policy...

Ed, Please tell us you are funning with us. Do you really believe that the feds would exaggerate the costs with the idea that if it really cost 6M to fight the fire, we should ask for 13.5M? I know that integrity in government was restored in 2000, and I for one won't stand by while you disparage our hard working patriots.

Eamonn, You informed the SE which you are required to do under BSA policies. You did your duty. The SE should have informed law enforcement as it involves assault. Sounds like he punted. It is not your responsibility to notify every possible organization that this perp is involved in. That's law enforcement's responsibility. I sure wouldn't want to be in the SE's shoes if the parents of the subsequent victims come looking for answers.

Ed, You're not suggesting that the Federal Govmint would mislead the public would you? Next thing you're gonna tell me is there really wasn't any WMD!

So the gov wanted 13.5 M to cover costs and the BSA is putting up 6.5 M. That leaves 7 M to be covered by the tax payers. BSA loses because they are out 6.5 M, the public loses because they are out 7 M. Seems like a lose/lose situation. But I'm A Half-Glass-Full Kinda Guy.

Here's an activity for a troop/pack meeting.... "Rename Glacier National Park!" http://www.renameglacier.org/index.html

Dodgezilla with the Prudhoe Bay trim package sure looked good back in 2003. Today, not so much. Loaded up with 5 scouts and towing the troop trailer, we get about 12 smiles per gallon. Long trips like the one we just did to the Grand Canyon, I kept my mortgage papers and split the cost between the scouts riding with me and the troop donated a small bag of gold for towing. Short trips, I just weep myself to sleep in my tent.