GernBlansten

Hopefully after school and sports are over and done with my son will be able to get down to philmonts guidelines for what a typical fit person is. I'm surprised that school and sports are the cause for your son's condition. What will be different after school and sports that will allow him to lose weight?

Brent, Do you think the required training for BSA leaders is sufficient and comparable to other organizations who take other peoples children into the wilderness?

Getting caught in scary situations is part of the game. Being able to extract yourself is another part. Seems she is qualified to make a judgement on BSA leaders seemingly inability to do so. Since she is still around to right the article I can only assume she is able to do so.

Thanks for posting the article. I don't subscribe to Outside but was thinking about getting one at the newsstand to see the article. Lets look at the authors main claim before discounting the article as anti-BSA manure. The primary claim is the BSA doesn't train their leadership to handle emergency situations in the outdoors. On face value, this seems ridiculous, but think to what is REQUIRED of BSA leaders to take scouts into the wilds. All that is required for me to take any number of scouts is one other adult, a booklet called G2SS, a tour permit, YPT and have signed the DRP. (Note: the number of scouts isn't restricted by BSA, so the leader/scout ratio is unlimited) I don't HAVE to be CPR certified, first aid certified, wilderness first aid certified, physically fit, trained in search and rescue techniques, proven skills in the activity pursued, equipped with radios. Of course, BSA recommends and encourages leaders to be qualified and trained in the activities they engage in, but they don't require it. There is no retribution or consequences (except dead scouts and bad media coverage) when we don't do it. So is it any wonder that so many leaders are poorly trained and equipped to handle emergency situations and these incidents always end up in the media? Do you think if Outward Bound had a lax policy for its leadership and had incidents similar to BSA, they would get a pass from the liberal media? So from the perspective that BSA doesn't do enough to train their leadership, I think she is spot on.

Ok, I can/will wear the shirt and the switch backs into a restaurant when I'm traveling with the boys, but no way are you gonna get me to wear the shorts with the dorky socks. In my council, we rarely/never see adults wearing the shorts/socks combo. There are limits to my fashion tolerance. At Philmont this year, we saw several adults doing so and had to try valiantly to keep from snickering. Sorry guys, but it really looks cartoonish. But if it works for you, all the power.

Packsaddle, you are making Yellowstone sound like a place not to be missed! I live in the west and we never even considered it. Always sounded like a place that old people in motorhomes go to when the weather is nice. Or folk from the mid-west hit when the kids are out of school. You know, like the Corn Palace in South Dakota. We (the family) have have been planning our fall break in October and I just might introduce Yellowstone to the home boys as a possible destination. About a 5 hour trip for us, might be a bit cold but that makes it less crowded eh? Never seen a griz eat a baby moose. That would be way cool.

One of the primary reasons for the wilderness designation is to protect the land from any undue human force. If a wildfire enters the wilderness, no fire fighting can take place. If a storm blows down timber, the timber stands as nature left it. It is really the last few places on earth that are designated to be free of human influence. Of course a politically connected group with thick wallets can always trump that. Do you think Cheney was one of the riders?

"At some places it was hard to tell they had even been through" How about all the other places? Was it easy to see they had moved through with 150 horses?

All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others. A proclamation by the pigs who control the government in the novel Animal Farm, by George Orwell. The sentence is a comment on the hypocrisy of governments that proclaim the absolute equality of their citizens but give power and privileges to a small elite.(This message has been edited by GernBlansten)

Rich horsemen get special ticket to ride 150 given access to restricted wilderness area By Katie Kerwin Mccrimmon, Rocky Mountain News July 21, 2007 http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5639046,00.html An elite group of 150 wealthy horsemen got special permission to ride through the Spanish Peaks Wilderness Area in southern Colorado during a weeklong, 100-mile trip that ends today. Wilderness advocates are crying foul, arguing that if a large troop of Boy Scouts tried to pass through the same area, the U.S. Forest Service would turn them down. TinaMarie Ekker, of the Montana-base group Wilderness Watch, said that in this case, money bought special privileges. The Roundup Riders of the Rockies, a secretive fraternity that has been conducting swanky rides through the Rockies for nearly 60 summers, paid about $15,000 to get a permit and pay for any damage they caused to trails or wetlands. Normally, a "25-heartbeat policy" governs groups in Wilderness Areas. That means that no group with more than 25 people or animals will be allowed in Wilderness Areas. The Spanish Peaks were declared wilderness in 2000. Forest supervisors could not name another large group that was allowed similar access. "The fact that they are paying that much money is a clear implication that there will be impacts. They're breaking the rules," Ekker said. She suspects they got special permission because they have friends in high places. "This is a very politically connected group." Neither Ekker nor forest supervisors could confirm who was on the ride. The organizers who got the permit were unavailable to comment while finishing the ride. In years past, the ride has sparked controversy. Former Colorado state parks chief Lyle Laverty used $5,000 in state funds so he could join the annual July ride. He later sold the horse to his son-in-law and returned the $5,000 to state coffers. Pike and San Isabel National Forest Supervisor Bob Leaverton said the riders ended up having little impact on the wilderness area. He said the riders were only allowed to pass through the wilderness. They set up their elaborate campsites every evening on private land. The group brings along at least 20 camp hands to cater meals, set up cots, showers, heated tents and even a stage for nightly entertainment. Leaverton said all those high-impact uses happened outside the wilderness area. He personally rode the trail on Thursday where the riders had gone on Sunday. He said the forest supervisors had made the right call to allow the large group and that little harm was done to the environment. "It was excellent. At some places it was hard to tell they had even been through," Leaverton said. "Obviously this group is very aware and sensitive to wilderness ethics. I think we validated the assumption we made that this ride would not have an impact on other wilderness users." Leaverton said the riders had to pay a non-refundable $5,000 fee for trail repairs and mitigation, but he doubted any repairs would have to be made. The other $10,000 went for permits and significant employee time to draft the permit and monitor the riders throughout the week. Leaverton assigned a forest service worker to ride with the group on Sunday and Monday. He said on those days, the Roundup Riders encountered only one other group hiking through the wilderness area and that their experience was not marred during their encounter with the Roundup Riders. Leaverton said he would be willing to review another group's application to get a waiver from the "25-heartbeat policy" if they proposed similar uses in the area. He said most groups want to camp in sensitive areas. Ekker, of Wilderness Watch, fears that forest supervisors have set a precedent they will soon regret. "This is a small wilderness with this huge group riding through it," she said, estimating that supervisors allowed as many as 15 times the number of horses and people that they should have. "What kind of message is this going to send to the field managers who have to say no to the Boy Scouts.'' McCrimmonK@RockyMoun tainNews.com or 303-954-2502

Hey, the scouts didn't start the fire, just got a heck of ride out of it.

I don't think BSA teaches bigotry towards gays, but I think some scouters bring it with them and it permeates the ranks. Intolerance is the primary reason I left the church. I didn't feel that Jesus taught intolerance yet many of his followers practice it.

If I said all Nazis were bad people, I would be a bigot. If I said Hitler was bad but the Pope is good, I would not be a bigot. In the former, I'm judging based on group affiliation. In the latter, I'm judging the individual. Bigotry is a negative trait.

Really folks, the difference between bigotry and just being judgemental is prejudice. Prejudice is, as the name implies, the process of "pre-judging" something. In general, it implies coming to a judgment on the subject before learning where the preponderance of the evidence actually lies, or formation of a judgement without direct or actual experience. You may think the act of anal sex is immoral, but does that mean every homosexual who doesn't engage in anal sex is immoral? Is a celebate gay man immoral? Or do you group all gay men as immoral because a few do engage in immoral activity? Whenever you group people together and base a judgment on the whole and not the individual, one moves from judgemental to bigotry. Independent on whether we derive our judgment on individual conceptions or religious teachings. We all fight this tendency. I constantly fight my tendency to label all fat people as lazy and without willpower. Am I a bigot? Yes, when I don't restrain it.

Really folks, the difference between bigotry and just being judgemental is prejudice. Prejudice is, as the name implies, the process of "pre-judging" something. In general, it implies coming to a judgment on the subject before learning where the preponderance of the evidence actually lies, or formation of a judgement without direct or actual experience. You may think the act of anal sex is immoral, but does that mean every homosexual who doesn't engage in anal sex is immoral? Is a celebate gay man immoral? Or do you group all gay men as immoral because a few do engage in immoral activity? Whenever you group people together and base a judgment on the whole and not the individual, one moves from judgemental to bigotry. Independent on whether we derive our judgment on individual conceptions or religious teachings. We all fight this tendency. I constantly fight my tendency to label all fat people as lazy and without willpower. Am I a bigot? Yes, when I don't restrain it.

LAMBADA? Why would a Brazilian dance want to sponsor a youth group?

A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from their own. Whether the opinion is based on religious teachings or some internally manifested self conclusion, the result is the same.

BSA has chosen to align themselves with a segment of society that is viewed by a growing majority of Americans as fundamentalist, intolerant and judgemental. Despite the fact that most units I've had contact with do not share those values, the image is one that prevails.

To be fair, I do think that W's federal "no call" list has really helped allow me to enjoy my dinner uninterrupted (although it is anti-business) and the terrah alert color coding has kept America from another attack. Without it, how could the public unite in a consistent and unified degree of anxiety. Those are just two shining examples of the success of this administration. Ok, perhaps the only successes but I'm a person reflecting a half-glass-full mentality.

I just earned the Philmont Arrowhead for our trek and conservation project. Flipped it over and admired the "Made in China" sticker on the back.

'Fool me once, shame on shame on you. Fool me you can't get fooled again'

Beavah, Those who don't learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them. My sage advice to those who are inclined to support another "conservative" in 2008 is to take a breather next election. Just sit back and enjoy the show. Have a cold one on me. Come 2012, you should be tanned, rested and ready to win one for the Gipper. Heck, the democRATS can't do any worse can they?

nldscout, Ancient Chinese philosopher once said, "Before seeking enlightenment to a quandary, one must Get A Life" ;-)

Stating half the facts is a great method to use to get people to think your way. The only problem is when those you told half truths to realize what they were told were half truths the teller of the half truths credibility goes down the toilet! Then everything the teller tells is suspect. Gosh, I would never have pegged Merlyn as being a republican.

Just did a little research and in our council, BSA lifeguard is a weekend course at the council camp pool, so lets say 16 hours max. Our local Red Cross lifeguard certification is 28 hours. Just from that, I'd say RC is more stringent than BSA. Red Cross Water Safety Instructor (WSI) is an additional 36 hours of training and allows you to teach swimming. Not sure if BSA lifeguard does that. I got my RC Lifeguard and WSI while in high school (this was during the Carter Administration) as part of the school academic program. I remember it taking two semesters to complete it but got a summer job working at the public pools right away. Even met my current wife there.