GernBlansten

Yeah Dan, I'm beginning to see your point on preserving the integrity of the program by keeping this slacker kids from advancing.

I agree Ed. Either the Bible is the work of man and fallible, or the work of God and infallible. I think you can guess where I come down on this.

"Is half of a 20 dollar bill worth 10 dollars?" It is if you can sell your half to the guy holding the other half. Packsaddle, turn in your dorky socks. You have failed us in meeting your duty to self.

That's the rub Ed. We get our morality from many sources. So how do you reconcile those differences?

Ed, some of us don't believe the Bible is the word of God.

Tenderfoot is typical 6 months after crossover (very rarely before). 2nd class by the end of their first year. If they are real go getters, 1st class before the next cross overs come in.

In our area, each troop can recommend one adult candidates for troops with under 50 scouts, two adults for troops with over 50 scouts. The adults must meet the minimum camping required.

Seems the primary objection to homosexuals serving in our ranks is the exposure to their children of the "Agenda". So wouldn't it be equally disturbing to have someone like myself who is sympathetic to the "Agenda" serving in the ranks? Shouldn't we weed out like minded individuals to protect the children?

This is just silly. Holding back a scout so long who is trying on a vaguely written requirement. I'd tell the SM that either he gets signed off, or you will find a troop that has more common sense.

The terrorists hate us for our freedoms. If we don't give up our freedoms, the terrorists win. Or something like that.

Me neither Ed. Never faced the Choice myself. Why do you think TJ did?

I think the scout needs to make up his mind who HIS troop is and stick with it. We should not support this cafeteria style scouting.

We crossed paths with a venture crew at the tooth and I chatted with a very nice young woman from Nashville. She tole me she had an asthma attack at one of the camps and was evacuated to base. Her crew was stuck at Beaubien for two days waiting for her return. Once released, they returned her to Beaubien so she could continue the trek. They had to alter their itinerary slightly to accommodate the extra day at Beaubien. Philmont is crisscrossed with 4WD roads the staff uses. At Apache Springs (about as far west from base as you can get), we saw a scout being loaded up in a Suburban after tearing his ACL playing frisbee. Another was being loaded up with a head injury caused from another scout throwing a rock at him. Niether of them were expected to return. I suppose if there is enough advisor coverage, the trek will go on. Come to think about it, I'm not sure Philmont isn't like Disneyland where there are secret passages everywhere that the staff uses.

So Ed, if you are as adamant that sexuality is a choice as tjhammer is adamant it is not, does that indicate that in your past, you faced the choice? Did you foster both homosexual urges and hetero urges and choose hetero? Once you made the choice, do you have times that you face it again? Or once you make the choice, that's it. OK, lets say it is a choice. This indicates that with a proper stimulus, anyone could be made to switch teams. What level of coercion or torture would make you choose differently?

So if I personally believe that homosexuality is a biological condition and not immoral, can I be a scout leader? Or do I have to tow the party line and cast disdain and judgement just to wear the uniform? Does my acceptance of homosexuality make me immoral by association? Should I just avoid the discussion of human sexuality with scouts all together leaving such a sensitive matter to those with attitudes more in sync with BSA philosophy? Does BSA have a course I can take so I can do this properly? Train the trainer? Also, could someone please guide me to the list of immorality BSA recognizes. I don't remember seeing it in the fine print of the application but I'm sure its there somewhere.

More than just training and certifications, one needs experience. I'd much rather send my son camping with someone who's been hundreds of times than some greenhorn who just got certified. With experience and common sense, comes wisdom. Experience gives us an appreciation to the variability of the situations one faces when outside the human zone. Weather, illness, attitudes, injuries, fear, ... the more you camp, the more wisdom you get on how to deal with it.

you are 100% correct Brent. Those courses do nothing to teach skills, just regulations and recommendations. They are also focused on the high risk activities. The problem I see is there is no Camp on Safely required. There is no Wilderness 101. We don't require our scout leaders to attend a single outdoor skill course before taking children into the wilds. BSA offers them, but they don't require them.

There are three threads running concerning this topic. I'll focus my energy on one of those threads and hone my spear catching skills.

When I took Climb on Safely, I was expecting a climbing course. What I got was a sermon on BSA climbing regulations. At first I was disappointed, but then I realized that I needed to know the rules before I could teach the skills. I have over 25 years climbing experience and probably could teach a course on climbing to most of these young whipper snapper climbers, but I couldn't have teached COS. I'm signed up to take BSA Climbing Instructor training next month so I can take our venture crew real climbing (you know, the kind that isn't done in some warehouse). Until then, I won't take the scouts climbing, even though I'm competent but not qualified to take them.

Are you qualified to take the boys on a hike? Depends. If you are heading into the high country of Colorado in mid summer, you better know the weather patterns. It can save your life. If you don't and lead a group of 12 year olds above timberline and get caught in a very predictable thunderstorm (at least to the experienced), you are a fool. If you're heading into the Canyonlands of Utah, you better know how where your water source is. If you don't, you are a fool. If you take scouts to a place over an hour from help and don't have wilderness first aid training, you are a fool. If your heading into a popular, heavily traveled park with lots of potential quick support, you probably don't need many skills. Yet BSA doesn't distinguish these treks with more hazardous ones. My problem with BSA is there is no standard beyond the DRP, a travel permit and YPT to distinguish the qualified from the unqualified. The public image of a boy scout leader in uniform is someone who knows how to live and survive in the woods. However, any fenced in suburbanite can take kids into a potentially dangerous situation without any skills required under the shield of the BSA. Our track record demonstrates it.

Our unit does not track partials, except for the spreadsheets we get back from summer camp (they don't use blue cards). On return from summer camp, we meet with each scout and tell them which requirements are unfinished. Its up to them to clean them up. We keep a book with all the spreadsheets from the past 10 years or so. Most never complete them. The only scouts who finish them, have parents who run herd on them. I used to do this with my son, but now just let him do it at his pace. Since my change in attitude, he has completed ZERO badges in the past year. He's 3 badges from Eagle.

So-Ill, You have exposed my ignorance to the necessity of gaining weight to wrestle in high school. I guess going to Philmont (or Sea Base or Northern Tiers) and wrestling at a competitive level are just not compatible activities. That must have been heart breaking to send your son home while continuing on with the trek yourself. I don't think I could have done that. It wouldn't have been fair to the rest of the crew with my sour attitude.

I am the ASM in our unit charged with guiding Life scouts to Eagle. Project approval is a district level responsibility, its really out of the hands of the unit. Our process for Eagle projects is a follows... Scout gets the workbook from the district website. Scout meets with me to discuss ideas. I narrow down possible projects to ones that I think will meet district requirements or give guidance to "tweek" the project so that it does. Scout writes up the proposal. Scout presents the proposal to the unit committee and SM. Scout obtains unit approval signature. I request a district advancement advisor assigned to the scout. Scout meets with district advancement advisor (not from our unit) to gain pre-project district approval. Scout works with district advisor throughout project. Theoretically, the scout doesn't need to involve anyone from unit during this phase, but typically, they come for guidance and labor. Scout submits completed project writeup to district advisor for approval. Once district signs off on completion, its a done deal until the EBOR.

So its OK for a fenced in suburbanite with no experience or training to take 30+ youth under the shield of the BSA into the woods and if he gets in trouble, its the liberal journalist professor who is to blame when she brings the situation of the optionally trained leadership and lax BSA requirements to light. Last summer, during summer camp, the camp offered wilderness first aid to adult leaders. I signed up. I cajoled two other leaders from my troop to also take it. They did. Out of the dozens of troops at camp that week, we were the only three who did the course. I truly doubt, any other leader at that camp had wilderness first aid. Keep reminding me how BSA leaders clamor to get trained. Sorry, but I do take the optional training when offered. I have 30+ years experience in the woods. I feel as though I'm thoroughly capable to take my scouts into the wild and deal with just about anything nature can throw at us. I just don't think many of my peers are as prepared.

Did you climb Longs Peak or just wander around the park? RMNP is really cool. Been a while since I used to climb there (like 25 years). When to college in Ft. Collins and would spend quite a few weekends up there.