GernBlansten

Yeah, i think we both got the eagle knot wrong. Symantics. No knots for eagle, but you have to have T21 before eagle. Those require knots.

Well, I'm sure BW will give the "right" answers after he lets this thread brew for a while. Good on him. I think some of the answers you (and I) got wrong will be nits having to do with the wording of the question. But one thing for sure, we both got the same question wrong in different ways. All in good fun. Who's next?

"Who is responsible for training unit leaders about the BSA advancement program? I'm thinking the advancement chair, but I'm probably wrong. " This is the only one I disagree with. I think its the CC. Otherwise, I agree with every answer you gave. Can't wait to see BW pick you (and me) apart!

I don't think I could sleep in one. I like to sleep on my side or belly. At Philmont, we couldn't tie anything but the bear bag ropes to living trees. So they wouldn't be allowed. I rarely see anyone out here with one on the trail.

The hardest badge is the one you don't want to do. Ask my son. The only thing keeping him from Eagle is communications. He really doesn't want to do it. Been "working" on it for 2 years.

Yeah, hard to not make record profits when you have very few companies controlling a resource that most people can't live without. Ever wonder that these record profits also started when big oil started merging? Competition is good and generally will keep prices reasonable. But instead of 15 oil companies, we now have 6. Exxon/Mobil, Conoco/Phillips, Chevron/Texaco, Shell, BP and Total SA. I ain't saying there's price collusion, but it certainly is easier when you have fewer companies to compete against.

I think its time for song, a song, its time to sing a song EH? I'll tip my hat to the new constitution Take a bow for the new revolution Smile and grin at the change all around me Pick up my guitar and play Just like yesterday Then I'll get on my knees and pray We don't get fooled again Don't get fooled again No, no! YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! Meet the new boss Same as the old boss

Oh boy, now you are making me relive some of my statistics training I took about 20 + years ago. Lets talk about our sample size. Total population is 2100 units in the central region. Total number of units reporting results in this thread in the central region, 3. Total number of units report issues with timely national tour permits, 3. 100% failure rate at our sample size, admittedly small, but nonetheless significant. If I were in the aerospace industry, which I am, doing quality control, which I have done, if out of a small sample I find a large percentage of defects, it warrants an investigation. Eagle90, I feel for ya. I know the stress involved in organizing and executing a high adventure. A non-responsive BSA doesn't help. You have many balls in the air and this shouldn't be one of them.

Menu planning and provisioning is not part of our patrol summer camp. The camp provides uncooked food and a menu. The scouts show up with modified backpacks (milk crates on old pack frames) at the commissary and pick up the food packs and menu for that meal. The scouts follow the recipes, cook and clean up returning any unused food to the commissary. Unless you brought all your own food like Brent did, I don't see how that could be accomplished. Our boys also prefer this style over the dining hall. The food is better, more of it and like Kudo said, no silly songs unless they want them

Ah, BW, but several have posted that they have had no problems with other Regions. My Western region has processed national tour permits for my unit with the efficiency one would expect. In fact from our little poll, looks like only one region is having the issue. Oh, and from our small sample of units represented here, I bet only a few of those 2100 units in the central region are even aware of this forum. Now we several complaints from a very small pool. Is there a statistical model we can apply here?

The time compression that occurs due to patrol cooking gets better through the week. Scouts learn to be more efficent, that teamwork is necessary to get done in time. But the first few days are hectic and chaotic trying to everything done in the time allowed. Overall, I think its a great learning experience for the scouts.

So is the G2SS wrong?

FScouters suggestion, although prudent and practical, is unacceptable and against BSA policy. You simply cannot go on the trip without an approved permit. Period. There's no wiggle room here. Folks have said it took threats to get regional to respond. What was the nature of those threats? Financial responsibility?

How would they fund it? Like any venture. Investment bankers and government handouts. The real reason there aren't any refineries planned is because they can't make the case that they will be profitable. When they can, they will use all the powers they have to condemn the land necessary, grease the gears to get the EPA in compliance, wine and dine the bankers and politicians and break ground.

BW, it isn't imagined. Right here we have an application submitted 3 months ago with the deadline fast approaching. Council has been engaged to cajole a response from Regional. Others have verified a problem with their permits. It is very likely that this permit may not arrive in time. The stress of the volunteers who are trying to follow the rules is high. This is not an acceptable service level. My question is if it doesn't arrive, who do you think should be liable to pay for trip expenses? The scouts?

gwd, you are not putting the youth at more risk, you are putting yourself at more risk. It is really up to you whether you wish to accept that.

I agree BW, that the unit must submit the permit app at least 30 days before the event. However, my hypothetical is that the unit has complied but the Region fails (which in this thread, doesn't seem remote) and the trip is cancelled as a result. Who should be held responsible financially? These are not cheap trips.

I've heard the arguments that we don't have refining capacity keep up with demand. However, I don't see it. Demand is down, people are driving less and SUVs are rotting in the driveways of America. If we did have a refining gap, why haven't there been any applications to build new ones? Sure the evil environmentalists don't want any new ones, but I doubt they would be any foe to the well connected oil companies. They could steam roll over any resistance if there was profit to be had. And so far, I haven't seen any new applications for them, much less any being denied.

I think what BW is referring to is plausible deniability. Although you technically meet the 2 deep leadership with a husband/wife combo, there would be host of questions raised in the event a youth made a YPT claim. Married couples protecting each other doesn't carry as much plausible deniability as two people not related to each other.

I've asked folks intimately involved in the energy biz the same question. The common response, "Its complicated." {tinfoilhaton} I think the retail gas price is not set based on supply/demand, but on the pain tolerance of the public. I bet big oil has employed, not economists, but psychologists to determine what level they can sell their ill begotten booty. Ever notice that prices always climb quickly to the next dollar level but then hover, never really breaking through the barrier. Once they've figured out that the public has accepted the high price and adjusted to it, they punch through and dance the price for a while until it hovers at the next dollar point. $3.99 right now. They are probing us, seeing if we can accept $4 gas. We will. Then watch it jump to $4.40 for a few weeks then hover right under $5 until we get used to the new pain. {/tinfoilhatoff} (This message has been edited by gernblansten)

BW, if a unit submits an application 3 months before the event, follows up with a phone call to verify they received it, but doesn't receive said permit until after the event, who should reimburse the unit for the trip? They clearly cannot engage in the trip with the permit.

Having spent 20+ years working in large multi-national organizations, this is expected. When you have stagnant growth, a perceived lack of response to market changes and your customer base, you do what ever other big company does. RE-ORG! Hopefully, they figured out where the problems exist and adjust the organization appropriately. But like every other company I've worked for that tried to get the right mix, I don't have much faith. But if they aren't changing, they aren't tryin!

Perhaps the central region will get the message when a unit sues them for trip expenses when a trip is canceled due to their delays. It isn't a problem in the western region. We got ours within a week of submitting it.

The patrol summer camps I've been to really do promote the patrol method if used properly. Each patrol is given a cookbox, stove, water jugs, dining fly. The patrol leader develops a duty roster for each meal which includes water fetching, food pickup, clean up, cooking. Staff usually comes during the meal time to help the PLs make sure all the stuff gets done and eats with the patrol. The adults also share the results of the cooking too. The real difference I see is the amount of time the patrol needs to work together to do every meal and it does take time away from other camp activities like merit badge sessions. Frequently, scouts are still cleaning up from breakfast when the first course starts. And they frequently are late to evening flags because dinner took longer than anticipated. Its a great opportunity for PLs to learn leadership.

Wow. So Mr. Savage has had do deal with the negative impact of others making ignorant, insensitive comments about his condition that he has no control over. This is the same guy who called autistic kids morons and putzes. Just when you think the guy can't sink any lower, he digs another few feet. Why do people listen to this putz?