GernBlansten

I think there are 4 OKPIK programs. One out of NTiers in Ely,MN; one in Maine, one at Philmont and the one at Denver. We were told the Denver one is the only one that the scouts actually sleep in the shelters they build. I can't confirm that, but can confirm that the one in Denver, they are required to sleep in the shelter they build. It isn't optional.

To the victors, go the spoils. Perhaps the scout motto should be replaced with that.

Wow. We didn't have the same type of event but maybe somewhat related. Here's how we handled it. In our unit, a first year scout's dad was killed in an avalanche at Christmas. He was an off duty firefighter who went to the aid of another snowmobiler and both were killed. The community closed ranks around the family and so did our unit. We let the family know that we would do whatever was necessary to help the scout. Understandably, he didn't attend meetings for a few weeks. He had several school friends in the unit and they talked to him at school and relayed his wishes to our other scouts at the meetings. It was clear, that the scout didn't want anyone to talk about his dad and just be a scout again. This came from his friends, not adults. The boys took it upon themselves to make sure this scout's account had enough funds for him to go to summer camp. Each gave up money from their own accounts. This was scout driven, us adults just sat in awe that they did it. He has enough in his account now for two years of scouting. When the scout finally started to attend again, they respected his wishes and just treated him like any other scout. We just stood back and let it happen, very proud of our boys. My suggestion is to let the scouts deal with this themselves. Don't make a big deal about it. You might be surprised on how well they do it.

Don't Hispanics have a longer history in America than whites? Who should adapt?

You forget about Cheney's special office he setup in the Pentagon to gather evidence to support the invasion because the CIA intel didn't support his plans. Look at the reality. Clinton didn't invade. Bush did. There were no WMD. Who looks foolish?

I concur. Do what JKC has suggested. They should provide a gear list. The Ordeal will challenge you and be a life long memory. Look forward to it. My brother did it in the 60s as a youth. I did it 4 years ago as an adult. It drives my 50 year old sister nuts when we talk about the Ordeal (with my son who is also in the Order) at family gatherings since we provide no details and maintain the mystery, but share something that took us 40 years to connect.

Gern's Axiom #12 : Once a thread reaches 12 pages, no faithfulness to the original topic is required. Yes, I saw it too last weekend. What really disturbed me was the outsourcing of the production to India. You would think that the American movie industry could have recreated the sets in California, used American actors and crew to film it. Every dollar you spend on these independent foriegn films is just going to fund the terrorists. Otherwise, it was a clever story, a bit violent for my sensitive disposition, but overall a good movie. I can see how people pan it though. It wasn't your typical cookie cutter blockbuster that the American public have grown to expect. You really had to think to enjoy Slumdogs.

Not at all OGE, but as thread pages go double digits, it becomes irrelevant and just the usual subjects taking cheap shots at each other, GUILTY!. I would support a top limit of 10 pages then the thread automatically closes. Now, has anyone seen Slumdog Millionaire? I have mixed feelings.

Blansten's Law states that on this scouter forum, the more pages a thread has, the further it deviates from the original topic, becomes irrelevant and takes longer to load.

The French have a proud military history. They were warriors in another era, but sadly, WW2 demonstrated their lack of resolve and they have not regained it, especially during the Vietnam conflict. I don't know if you visited this forum during the high days of the Bush regime. Being less than conservative here was like being an Atheist at a COH. Any step out of rank was met with a quick, "America, love it or leave it." This drove many non-conservatives into the closet. But that door is now open and some are willing to voice their opinion where they wouldn't have in the more acerbic environment. Its gotten better here and they had to realize scouting attracts more than just social conservatives and that we hike the same trails and probably even shared a tent with one of us.

If there are only two universal truths here on this forum, the French are not warriors and the Scouts are conservative.

Come on TheScout, using the French as an example of military power? This is a conservative forum. Can't we at least agree the French are the antithesis of military power? Your arguments are becoming comical.

Matt, I just completed my first year as an instructor at OKPIK for the Denver Area Council. My son did it with me and he has been a particpant of OKPIK four times. Weather has been mild here in Colorado this season. Never got below zero for the scouts doing OKPIK. Too bad for them. That's a bragging right. Snow pack has been a problem. On my weekend, we had barely had enough snow to build our snow shelters. I think this is the final weekend and I hope they have enough snow. Great program though. Highly recommend it.

Afghanistan is an excellent example. When the Soviets invaded, they pretty much could do as they wished, killing anything that moved without resistance. AK47s have no effect on Hine choppers. It wasn't until Charlie Wilson was able to provide them with advanced military hardware, namely SAMs and RPGs, that they were able to stop the invasion and exact losses on the Soviets. Likewise, you and Brent holding your assault weapons, are no match to any army. It will take advanced military hardware to resist. In Vietnam, the Vietcong were rather ineffective until supplied advanced military hardware from China. Your comparison to our revolutionary warriors is not applicable. They resisted with equal firepower.

This sounds like a giant step forward for parlor scouting.

Well TheScout, how do we protect ourselves from an oppressive government? Obviously, you can't do it with private small arms, not even automatic weapons. Just not enough firepower to stop a well trained and equipped army. Private ownership of small arms are unnecessary and impractical to preserve the nation. Modern military hardware would be necessary, but costs prohibit private acquisition. So I think we follow the second part of the 2nd Amendment and have well regulated militias. States could call for recruits and tax their citizens to fund them. Training and provisioning of the militias will be the responsibility of the governors of each state. These militias would be first responders in cases of emergency, whether natural or political. Another approach, which could be employed simultaneously to the previous method, is to use our representative government to keep it from becoming oppressive in the first place. Any sign of abuse, should be responded to with calls for impeachment and prosecution. Beware of attempts to justify malfeasance with claims of unitary executive powers or unconstitutional war powers. Democracy is wonder, if we can keep it.

I'm shocked, shocked I say. How can you make an assumption on what type of arms the framers were refering to? Since they specifically refer to arms, its all arms. The only restriction is the size of the pocketbook. Cannon and ship were too expensive for early Americans to own privately, so that's the reason they didn't have them, it had nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment and what was permissible or practical. Likewise today, I should only be restricted on my personal arsenal based on my ability to pay for it. The bar has risen slightly though. An RPG (modern day cannon) is a couple thousand dollars. SAM, around 150k. A cruise missle, 1.5 million. But land mines are cheap. Couple of dozen for a price of a Prius. Remember, the 2nd Amendment is not about gun collecting or hunting, its about being able to overthrow an oppressive government. You guys complaining about Obama taking away assault rifles are missing the big picture.

Religious persecution.

Assuming the boy is a true atheist? Tough assumption. But OK. What would be the benefit to everyone impacted by ejecting the youth from scouting? To the boy, he loses access to a great program on personal development and probably a few of his friends. No benefit to the scout. To the parents, they lose a program that can teach their son about life, religion, leadership, self reliance, friendship and fellowship. No benefit to the parents. To the unit scouts, they lose a friend and colleague. No benefit to the scouts. To the BSA, they lose another registrant in an already dwindling membership. No benefit to the BSA. What is gained?

Pack, I make no claim that we would be safer with unrestricted access to military hardware. But how else can I protect my constitutional rights from an oppressive government? That's what the 2nd Amendment is all about, its not about hunting rifles. Oh, sure, we could allow citizens to form well regulated militias, like the National Guard, but that's not what the 2nd Amendment is all about is it? Or is it? Hmmm.

Your situation sounds very similar to what my son's unit was facing when we crossed over. There was lots of turnover/churn in adult leadership for that first year. A few parents would agree to take temporary leadership roles just to keep the troop alive, but we really didn't have one take the reins. Even I didn't want to commit to it, fearing being sucked into a black hole of unsupported problems. Nobody wanted to own the problem. Finally, the next year, a father/son transferred into our unit and dad took the SM position with full commitment. That caused several others of us to step in with full commitment. The troop turned around and started growing again. Sometimes it just takes one committed adult to get others to pitch in.

TheScout, I do not mock you. But you have stated the 2nd Amendment was designed to allow citizens to repel foriegn invasions and resist our own government. It doesn't refer to firearms, it refers to arms. Obviously, unless the citizens have access to the same military hardware the government does, the 2nd Amendment becomes meaningless. I cannot resist my government without SAMs, RPGs, landmines, cannon and possibly cruise missiles. Its an arms race we are very far behind on. Those of you who use the 2nd Amendment to justify ownership of assault weapons and pistols, are misusing it. Those toys would are meaningless to satisfy the true intent of the framers of the amendment.

Tough crowd. He shuts out the drive-by liberal media and he's labeled ashamed to be seen with us. Had he allowed them in, he'd be labeled a panderer and hypocrite by us. We have met the enemy and he is us. J in KC, aren't you retired military? I thought the military had higher regard for the commander in chief than to call him names?

Lets get off all these sad but true stories of gun violence and get back to discussing why my 2nd Amendment rights are being violated because I can't have an RPG. Remember, the 2nd Amendment is not about hunting. Its about keeping the people safe from their own government. I need an RPG to do that. Sorry, handguns, shotguns, and assault rifles just won't do.

Nothing TheScout. These sad stories have nothing to with me gaining access to an RPG so I can effectively repell an invasion or overthrow our government.