GernBlansten

Why do they need our rosters? What's the point of re-chartering if they don't trust their own records? I know in my unit, we will just hand them a copy of our re-charter. Rather pointless isn't it? And how will that even help in identifying missed recruitment opportunities?

Found this tidbit in our district email blast... "Roster Check Pioneer Trails is going to be doing a roster check to make sure that all of our Scouts from crossovers and join nights have been able to join Scouting. We will then be checking with all of the Scouts that have not joined to see if they would like to still join in other opportunities in an effort to see if we can retain boys. We will also be letting you know which youth and adults have not been registered. Please submit a roster for your Unit to Pat D." What is the point in this? Is the district questioning our units integrity? Do they think we are turning scouts away? Anyone else getting similar notes from their DEs?

Ditto Hal. we had a 14 year old friend of my son's join who left cubs as a bear. He was real motivated catch up to his peers ranks. Now is 16 and almost Life. Got Eagle on his mind, or at least his parents mind who are his prime motivators.

For swift water, BSA lifeguard can't be sufficient either. Can it? They don't teach that at our summer camp.

My son shot rifles and shotguns at 11. He did climbing walls and got his canoeing meritbadge at his first summer camp. There is adventure for the young scouts if we deliver it. You don't have to wait until 14.

I'm going to put on my mind reading cap and try to assume what BSA means by the 30 minutes. BTW, it clearly is a poorly written statement to cause this much discussion purely on its definition. A 30 minute rule would make sense if it was for a normal healthy person traveling by foot to a point where EMS could assist (a road). For me, without running, that would be about 1.5 miles. If it was to carry an injured man out, it would closer to .5 miles. If that was their intent, then it surely isn't an unreasonable requirement to have participants meet the weight guidelines. So why 30 minutes and not 1.5 miles? Terrain varies. In caving, a few hundred yards could take more than 30 minutes. In canoeing, maybe 3 miles. In alpine snow? who knows? So the time requirement makes more sense than an arbitrary distance. I think they came up with the rule to explicitly rule out the requirement for 95% of suburbanite scouting. Its specifically related to back country. Lets face it, very few of us take scouts into those realms, and if we do, it makes absolute sense to have those guidelines. And for those of you who think the BSA is trying to run the large ones out, why do they still sell XXL uniforms?

Evacuation is the primary reason for the weight limitations at Philmont. Other health limitations should be vetted by the participants physician. I don't hear anyone complaining about the Philmont requirements. Philmont is staffed with trained people who can get to you within hours and probably to EMS shortly after that. There will always be at least 10 other healthy 14+ year olds and adults to assist in evacuation. Now compare that to two adults taking five 12 year olds 5 miles into the wilderness. Which scenario should have more strident weight/health restrictions?

Yes, but five 12 year olds would have a heck of a time carrying a 300lbs all muscle linebacker 5 miles out after he broke his leg. Again, the weight restrictions aren't just about the fitness level of the participant, its about logistical evacuation considerations. That's why Philmont instituted them.

Well, to pull the hijack back into the spirit of the thread, I think one of the issues we (the BSA) have is a general perception by the public, especially the left half of the country, that the BSA is a tool for right wing conservatives who discount environmentalism for theocratic ideals. That makes us look silly to the progressive crowd. The BSA has adopted LNT as its outdoors ethics, but do they promote that in their marketing literature? No. I think its one of their greatest selling points. They are just out of phase with the public.

So how does conservation play into the exploitation of finite oil reserves? How does that play into the study of healthy herds and the amount of land needed to support a healthy herd. Sorry for the hijack, but Brent is just not making any sense to me.

I keep the Dodge Ram 2500 Hemi for roundtables and other fancy dress scout functions when I need to blend in. So is the Exxon Valdez an example of classical Rooseveltian conservationism or just the exception that proves the rule? What's the difference between conservation and exploitation then?

So how would a "drill, baby, drill" type be considered a conservationist? And yes, my Prius was found at the trail head. It was the one with the Obama 08 and End of an Error stickers.

that's interesting brent. The environmentalists I see in the woods EVERY weekend sure don't resemble the ones you spot at the city park. In fact, when standing on the summit of Mt. Bierstadt at 14,060 ft on Monday, nobody was a "drill, baby, drill" type. Just a bunch of fellow tree huggers, well there weren't any trees up that high, but if there was one, we would have hugged it. now when we returned to trailhead, there were a few of those standing outside their SUVs enjoying the holiday. Maybe its just your part of the country.

Dean, I agree with most of what you posted. However, the environmentalists are the ones out in the back country. They are the ones appreciating nature and wanting to preserve it. The anti-enviros are the ones standing in their fenced backyards, sucking down a cold one and spouting "drill, baby, drill". Most have never set foot more than 20 ft away from their SUV, but are experts on the environment because they watched Man Vs. Wild. Once you take the modern suburbanite into the wilds and expose them to the beauty and fragility of nature, they become environmentalists.

May you live in interesting times, often referred to as the Chinese curse. It was the first of three curses of increasing severity, the other two being: May you come to the attention of those in authority. May you find what you are looking for.

If you accept that the 30 minute rule is based on a litter carry out of the woods, I have no issues with the restrictions. Think how difficult it would be to carry a 300lbs man 5 miles, no matter his personal fitness level. This isn't all about the overweight fellow, its about all the other guys who have to haul his butt out. Get in shape folks. We promote physical fitness. We should lead by example.

Brett, How could you travel internationally without the protection of the National Tour Permit?

Yes, there is a letter of permission for youth who are not traveling with both parents. I guess this is really intended to keep divorced/separated parents from taking the youth without permission. Last time we crossed the border (by car), they weren't interested in the letters, only passports.

Shouldn't all leaders be judged on their individual characteristics instead of global stereotype? I've met 40 year old adults I would never allow my children to ride with. I've met 18 year olds I'd trust them with. Why not judge the individual instead of the group?

Adults? Heck, we are having all the youth have passports too. Funny thing, the NTP doesn't ask about that. Can someone really tell me how the permit realistically makes us safer?

I just submitted my first National TP for our trip to Canada this summer. I found it ridiculously similar to the local TP. I really don't see much value in it except to make me go through the checklist to verify I've done everything. I did hear that the old National TP was 8 pages long and a real pain to complete. But this one took me maybe 30 minutes to complete and was mostly check-boxes.

Absolutely absurd. WFA is way to outdoorsy for the new BSA. Now if you floated a rumor that a Star scout take a course in management styles or E.D.G.E, I might believe it.

Anytime you want to leave a permanent gummy residue that will collect dirt and hair on equipment that can only be removed by highly toxic chemical fluids. On a yacht I used to race on, duct tape, although highly versatile, was banned just because of that.

Do you think the BSA would ever reconsider the root cause for this relocation quest?

Pack, are you saying that BSA is paralleling several major religious sects in that to sustain membership growth, indoctrination at a early age is essential?