GernBlansten

The aftertaste?

There's no better bilge pump than a frightened man with a bucket!

Good point OGE. All units put varying emphasis on individual methods. What amazes me is that some consider those scouts from units who don't subscribe to another units rigidity to a method makes that scout deficient in character and ethics. I really couldn't care if Brent's unit is perfectly uniformed, but I do resent that he thinks all the scouts in my district are unethical and lack character.

xlpanel, if the suit had not changed in style since like 1980, your son would have the same aversion to wear as he does the ODR uniform. Suits evolve continuously and relfect the styles and attitudes of current society. Boy scout uniform styles are 30 years old, albiet with some recent fabric changes.

Brent, you say you don't care about other units uniforming, but then in the next statement you denegrate a scout's (and his SM's) character because of it. Perhaps this is just regional. In my district, there are ZERO complete uniformed units. At least at camporees (where we intermigle with other units.) We have run across a FEW at summer camp, but easily 90% are as laxed as ours (shirt only). This probably says more about our culture out here in the rocky mountains. We don't dress up for church or work either. We are a bunch of mavericks. With no character!

Brent, I feel the uniform method can be executed and kept faithful to GBB with a much less rigid uniform guide. Similar to the GSA or other scouting organizations where the vest has replaced the entire wardrobe. I'm not saying a vest, but some relaxed standard. The current complete uniform is just too much bling and ceremonial to be practical. And there are folk who consider those who don't wear the full complete uniform to be scouts lacking character.

So Brent, you admit that the very design of the Uniform makes impossible to play the game strenuously, the way boys want to play. They must substitute a troop designed uniform, one that only the troop has and no other BSA member. That's not uniforming in the sense that GBB intended. Care to take on any other of GBB points I challeged?

I'll argue with him Brent. "1. The Scout Uniform gives the boy a true sense of BELONGING. It submerges his self and makes him group conscious of his Patrol, his Troop, and the Boy Scout Movement. " A funny hat like the Shriner's Fez accomplishes the same thing. YMCA camping shirt will do the same thing. No need for a correct and complete uniform down to the socks. "2. It provides for true DEMOCRACY. With all boys in Uniform, the external differences between poor boys and rich boys disappear. " Except now the uniform is more expensive than regular clothes. Only the rich have new, complete uniforms, the poor must scrounge with hand me downs, charity or substitute lookalikes. This made more sense back when clothing was expensive and there was a visual disparity between the rich and poor. Nowadays, you cannot differentiate the rich kids from the poor ones in the way they dress. "3. It continuously and persistently brings to the boy's mind the SCOUT IDEALS for which the Uniform stands and reminds him that he has promised to do his best." I just don't agree with this. Scouting Ideals better come from the heart, not the wrapping. "4. It adds to the boy's ENJOYMENT of Scouting. The very design of the Uniform makes it possible for him to play the game strenuously, the way boys want to play. " Please. Why do we shed the uniform when we get to camp for more practical clothing, only to change back for cerimonial activities. The uniform is NOT for play. Perhaps back in GBB day, the uniform was a rugged outdoors suit. Today, its for parlor scouting and parades. "5. It encourages ADVANCEMENT. A boy seeing Badges and Insignia blossoming forth upon the Uniform of a chum or member of his Patrol will want to earn them for himself." Perhaps, but a uniform is only one tool that can accomplish this. Its not the only tool. "6. It gives added opportunity for SERVICE. The Scout in Uniform is chosen for civic service projects before the Scout without one, because the Uniform itself adds to the boy's effectiveness in performing many services." Bunk. How does the uniform increase the boy's effectiveness? "7. Earning the money with which to secure the Scout Uniform teaches a boy the invaluable lessons of THRIFT and PERSEVERANCE. " Again, the uniform is one tool. So is paying their own way for adventure or camping equipment. The uniform has no special value here. "8. The ultimate acquisition of the Uniform establishes in a boy the feeling and sense of worthy OWNERSHIP, and encourages neatness and GOOD GROOMING. " Again, the uniform is one tool. The uniform has no special value here.

I have a dream that scouts will one day have a troop where they will not be judged by the completeness of their uniform but by the content of their character. Yes Brent, I find myself chuckling at myself at times too.

Some people will join because of the uniform, others will join in spite of the uniform and still others are ambivalent to it. Count me in the later two groups depending my mood. But I do chuckle at those who judge a book by its cover.

REI Half Dome two person tent is 34 SQFT. That's 17 SQFT per person. Its the gold standard in backpacking.

Well if standing up to ridicule is a sign of character, then if we replaced the uniform with a Shriner's fez and pink tutu, we'd really have character. Or be ones. I think the sports uniform analogy really doesn't fit. A sports uniform is functional for the sport, has no bling based on status. But is a bit of pride. A football player might wear one to school (at least the jersey, never the complete uniform), especially on game day. But how about the marching band uniform analogy. In a group of others, they are sufferable, but caught alone, you stick out like a sore thumb. They are used only for performances. You'd rather be dead than caught in one by your non-marching band friends away from your other marching band buds. You'd never wear it to anything but a performance and then only during that performance. Actually, Beavah's got the right angle. If the Official BSA uniform weren't so cartoonish and rigid, down to the socks, we wouldn't be arguing it. Seems other world scouting organizations have relaxed it, with some success.

Yes, Brent. He was wearing his uniform. A complete uniform, down to the socks. But because the adults demanded it. Not because he wanted to. Nor did his peers. They conform because they are told to conform, by adults. They view conforming to the will of the adults as a necessary step to achieve what they really want. Adventure, self determination and freedom of will. Remember, socks = character! Here's a test, just for once, allow your PLC to set the dress code. Don't influence them with all the WB babble about how the uniform = character. Let them decide. All on their own. Do you think any group of self directed 13 year olds will choose to wear our dorky uniform in its complete state?

Yeah, who would wear blue socks with green pants? What a fashion tragedy. Definitely shows a lack of character.

You know, when going through the checklist of for NYLT staff, my son commented that the shirt and pants where OK. But getting all anal about the socks just put him into a tizzy. WHO CARES ABOUT YOUR SOCKS? was his exclaimation. Next is gonna be your underwear! I just had to chuckle. He went on about how the adults at NYLT training camp went on and on about everyone having their socks was critical. Socks = character. Go figure. PS, I agree with my son.

So now uniform = character. Well, #1 son, Eagle scout. Veteran of the triple crown (Philmont, Seabase, Ntiers). NYLT graduate. NYLT staff. JASM of the troop. He escorted a Congressional Medal of Honor recipient during the annual convention as an Eagle scout last year in Denver. Thinks adults put too much emphasis on the uniform. Doesn't like it. Brent thinks he lacks character. I report, you decide. Is Eagle son character void?

I've been 100% behind mdsummer45 for this entire saga. I think her son is getting the shaft. I'm the Eagle advisor for our unit. I'm an ASM (father of an Eagle, brother of another), not the SM. But I'm the guy who guides the prospective Eagle candidates through the maze of District, unit and council mine fields. I'm a friendly face to come to when things don't go well. Up until now, I've been 100% successful. Every candidate who has entered the path, finished it. Many scouts never even started the path. But there's one scout who just enter the gate. I have known him since we joined the unit. A very narcissistic, unpleasant young man. Very smart. Too smart almost. I don't like him, personally. I don't really want him to become an Eagle scout. But its not my call. I give him the required information, review his documentation, and do the very minimum required of me to help him along. I guess you could say I won't help him get his Eagle, but I also won't hold him back. Part of me says, in any other unit, her son would be an Eagle scout. But the other part of me says, if this boy is like the scout I previously mentioned, so be it. PS, I hate the Good Ole Boy network. If that were the only reason, he should get his Eagle.

Yup Brent. I do think the uniform keeps many boys from joining, and definitely many from staying. How many scouts voluntarily wear their uniform to school or other non-scouting functions? Should they be proud if it? How many of those same kids wear their letter jacket to more than high school?

I could foresee a rush of boys wanting to engage in our program but have avoided it because of the nerdy uniform and uptight adults (the ones in nerdy uniforms, yelling about the uniforms). Heaven forbid we allow those miscreants into our little camping club.

I sure hope National fixes this. If they don't, the next call I'd make as a parent would be to the local paper to find a reporter who might want to make a name for him/herself. In 99% of the units out there, this boy would be an Eagle scout. But because this SM has a vendetta against him and is well connected in the district and council, the scout is getting the shaft.

I'm in the camp that leaders cannot be made, they are born. The rest at best can be managers. To think that you can take any boy and apply enough training and responsibility he will eventually become a leader is like giving a boy enough piano instruction and practice time and they will eventually become a musician. You hone leadership. You shape it. But you cannot create it. That's where I come down firmly behind Kudu. Scouting should give those natural born leaders the opportunity to master their skills, preferably in the wilderness, not some church basement. The rest can come along for the ride, but to expect them to also become natural leaders is a bit ridiculous.

Just heard that Mark Sanford is one of the few Eagle scout governors. Probably where he got his love for hiking.

I just hope that "going hiking" doesn't take on the same meaning has having a "wide stance". Gosh these family value politicians sure do make for some entertaining news, don't they?

My 87 year old auntie is hydro-cephalic. Toughest old Norwegian farm girl you'd ever meet. Pretty good bridge player too.

The status of her employment or license status is irrelevant to me. What concerns me is that a medical professional would entrust her medically challenged son to other adults with unintelligible instructions. That shows more of her parenting skills than anything else. Is she trying to setup the leadership for a lawsuit or just lazy? Johnny had a reaction to the peanut butter. Didn't you see this on the form? Right here! I can't help it if you can't read it! You people are at fault!