GernBlansten

Shoot, if they let me rewrite it, it would be short and sweet. Rule 1: Use common sense. Rule 2: If you don't follow rule 1, be prepared to be ridiculed, second guessed and chastized on internet forums. Rule 3: See rule 1.

NTiers: the boys broke into teams of three for tenting and shared a common gear pack. That didn't change for the whole trek. The tent assignment had nothing to do with canoe assignments. At the beginning of the trek, the most experienced paddlers took the stern with the less experienced swapping between paddling and duffing. Each day they would mix it up between canoes. For that day, they stayed in the canoe they started in because they would get a system for the portages. The first portage of the day always took longer as each figured out their role. By mid trek, most had paddled in all positions. By the end of the trek, every scout had paddled every position, carried every piece of gear. Some carried the canoes more than others but only due to the fact they were bigger and taller.

That's why they call it adventure. If you want 100% solutions to problems, stay home and enjoy the wilds from the comfort and safety of your 52 inch plasma TV.

My son crossed over in Feb 2004 with 4 webIIs. All are still registered, one shows up about 25% of the time, my son is the JASM, the other two are finishing up their Eagle requirements, but not too active. It is not uncommon for us to lose 50% of crossovers in the first year.

OGE, that was forty years ago. I'm talking back when Norman Rockwell was still painting pictures of scouts. Its the time when all the stereotypes of scouting was laid out. Self reliant, outdoorsy, honest, helping little old ladies across the street. Back then it was cool, or so my dear old dad said. We haven't lived up to the Norman Rockwell portrayals.

This is really tragic. I'm sure Philmont has removed this crew from the field and has a chaplain assigned while at base. I've heard of crews continuing on their treks when someone gets sick or injured, but I can't imaging continuing your trek in this situation. This unit should however get priority to re-book a trek next season. For the same scouts and leaders.

I had no intention to denigrate or downplay the significance of WB. GB (GernBadge) is purely just another training option (path). There are many paths to our objective. WB is one path to leadership development. GB is just another. The ends to the means is the same. The means are just different. But BSA has a problem today. Its lost its "cool" appeal to the youth. Membership is down, kids don't like to self identify as scouts. That's because most youth view it as a bunch of nerds sitting in a basement of the church, getting lectured on what makes good leaders. 50 years ago, being a scout didn't mean that, it meant going into the wild and learning and demonstrating your leadership by actually practicing scout-craft. When they took scout-craft out of WB, the BSA sealed their fate and chose their path.

We can live in harmony with the bears. We need to alter our behavior. Be bear aware. And yes, occasionally a bear might get into our bear bag or canister and eat our Oreos. So be it.

The only prerequisite would be an minimal equipment list, the only obligation, a commitment to take this training back to the youth. A novice will have a lot to learn in a short time, a seasoned outdoorsman will have a great time learning the scout way and helping the novice. Both will come out of the week knowing how to competently take scouts beyond the parking lot, and how much fun it can be.

Our summer camp has a mid week outpost where scouts and leaders hike to a remote location and make due with traps. Last one I attended, 3 years ago, none of the scouts went back into their tents for the remainder of the week. They'd rather sleep under the stars. But don't have bugs.

JohnInKC, We are only restricted if we mandate youth must be part of the leadership. I don't. I would allow it, but don't require it. A winter course would be GREAT! though. Just think the skills you would learn and be able to apply to your unit. OKPIK anyone? But practically, the courses would have to run when most timid suburbanites would be willing to venture away from their warm cabins, RVs and car camps. Also, availability to scout ranches would limit us to pre/post summer camps. Probably one session before and one after. That would concentrate the participants and get several patrols in each session. Staff from summer camp might be able to help at the stations. Service projects could be included to help camp setup and take down.

As the virtual director of this virtual course (I'm calling it GernBadge), I hereby declare that youth may serve as troop guides, but must have attended at least one of the national high adventure bases (preferably NTiers or Philmont, Seabase is really just a nice vacation). The patrol leader (lead adult staff) must also have attended a National high adventure and have done this course previously as a troop guide. Why do I require a national high adventure for staff? Because they force you to run your crew as independent patrols, without outside support. Its the proving grounds for the patrol method. They are tough and anyone who completes a trek has demonstrated their ability to survive in the woods. Powderhorn is no substitute. They teach high adventure options and how to deliver it to Venture scouts, not scoutcraft to scouts. This week will be chock full of knots, lashings, knives, axes, cooking, tenting, hiking, orienteering, fire building, story telling, song singing, tower building, animal tracking, first aiding, canoeing, climbing, pot cleaning, cathole digging, water pumping, bug swatting, sweating, getting dirty, getting wet, getting trained. If the council can support it, yes, have multiple patrols rotating stations every day. Possible nightly roundups and competitions. The more the merrier. But you could do it with just one patrol too. Why move them every day? Because that makes you rethink everything you carry into the wilds. If you have to pack it, haul it, unpack it every single day, you will seriously reevaluate every piece of equipment. That in turn will make you a better camper and more confident in doing more with less. This will set the tone of the course. Hubris. With your equipment, your capabilities, your environment, your patrol. I think it would be great for Cub leaders to take the course, but they better not complain that what they learn won't transfer to their Tigers or Den Leaders. But they will get an idea of what real Boy Scouting should be and start their boys on the path.

I for one am not discounting the value of WB to those who have not had the corporate training. I'm sure its great. And fun. But don't look down your noses at those of us who do not wish to rehash it over two weekends when our employers make us do it every two years anywhoo. Y'all seem to think BSA has a corner on leadership training. Hey, guys, corporate America has been doing it for over 20 years, in week long retreats too! We don't have the critter songs though. Maybe that alone will make it worth the time. That and the bling.

Oh, and one other very important thing. There will be no special recognition or regalia. No cliques. No annual breakfast banquets. Just the special self gratification that you are capable to lead scouts in the outdoors. Hubris will be the underlying theme.

Well if you will take the opinion of a Skunk, that one week must occur in the great outdoors 24x7 at a large BSA reservation. No PowerPoint presentations. No classrooms. Make it backpack oriented. Broken into patrols, each patrol packs up every day and moves to a new site. At that site, a program is in place similar to Philmont where they learn an essential scout-craft, like LNT, pioneering or first aid from trained staff. Every day a new site and new craft. Cooking will be single pot delicacies. Their patrol operates as an ideal example of what scouting should be in the field, led by an experienced (trained) patrol leader and guide. The distances don't need to be great so even the portly suburbanite will be able to complete, but long enough to challenge everyone. During the hiking and downtime, the PL will engage in discussions on typical challenges, activities and adventures each unit will face. Coming from that course, the graduate will have the necessary skills to take his unit away from the car camp and into the wilds comfortably and safely. This course must be focused on Boy Scouting (serving 11 to 18 Ylds) and cannot be diluted to be relevant to the younger Cubs or their leaders.

Or only very short scouts will be allowed to wear shorts. But, then wouldn't they technically be wearing pants?

Eagle son just returned from staffing NYLT. They had bear problems. One night the bruin knocked over a patrol box. The next night, the boys were out-posting across the reservation and he destroyed a boy's vacant tent. Seems the boy left a packet of Oreos (sealed) in it. So Eagle son got to do a two hour shift of bear watch every additional night.

"Those are my ideas (at least currently). I would also be interested in hearing what others think. " Even us skunks and rats? Sorry, couldn't resist. Heading to the back of the bus again!(This message has been edited by gernblansten)

John, You make an excellent case for units who wish to include religion as a major component to their program, should restrict membership to their particular faith. Like the LDS. If you want your scout to have that type of scouting experience, then seek out a unit that does that, hopefully chartered by your own church. If you think religion belongs solely in the hands of the parents, then seek out a unit that supports that. But trying to blend different faiths and religious practices into a single religious centric program is more than just challenging.

I'm a skunk, Desertrat. What critter are you?

Eagle92, I re-read the post too. This piece "(and dare I say not enough concern to get fully trained?)" says everything. Elitism. And you wonder why many of us just shake our heads at your little religion you call WB.

Desertrat, I've saved a seat on the back of the Scouter Express for you. Know any critter songs?

A few years ago, I considered buying a boat rental business at our local marina. Sailboats, fishing boats, canoes and jetskis (PWC). The PWC were the hottest item, getting upwards of $50/hour and booked a solid 10 hours a day. The guy had a fleet of 10 PWC. But you couldn't get insurance on rental PWC. And the nutters who rented them beat the living tar out of them. So maintenance costs where high. They would ingest gravel, run into other objects, beach them on rocks, and break everything they put their hands on. You could get them to sign liability waivers for you, but that doesn't mean that little girl's family won't sue you too when the rental nutter runs over her near the swim beach with your rental craft (actual case). Basically, your business plan needs to be to just walk away from the business if something bad happens and hope they don't come after you personally. Not so with fishing boats, paddle, canoe and sailboats. But they don't rent at a high enough rate nor bookings to make it work. Gotta have the jetskis.

Anyone checked on the liability insurance rates for PWC? Especially for minors? Can minors under 16 operate PWC in your state? Mine can't. That alone will kill the program.

Yeah, I see a lot of WBadgers dismiss everything from non-WBadgers. Elitism.