GernBlansten

Our council has two camps. One is a mega camp, broken into two programs, one is patrol cooking, the other dining hall. It has an adjoining cub camp. No NYLT there. This camp is huge and out in the plains of Colorado. It has the lake, the rifle range, the horses, the swimming pool, the merit badges. The other camp is small and up in the mountains. It's used for our winter OKPIK high adventure, our own Philmont style backpacking high adventure, OA functions, a COPE program, troop developed summer camp programs and NYLT. They hold 5 weeks of NYLT each summer there. Typically, a scout in our unit will choose whether to attend summer camp with the troop at the mega camp, or do NYLT at the smaller camp. But not both. We don't restrict it, but they typically won't do both. Sounds like its really no different than SR540 council is proposing, we just do it at different camps.

Quick question, How can someone employ EDGE to teach scoutcraft when no scoutcraft is taught to the EDGE trained leader?

Back on topic, an interesting point has been made and not answered. Does the IH of the charter organization become a member of the BSA by that connection? They are listed on the charter form, but I do not believe they fill out a membership application. Do the membership requirements encompass that position? Is the IH even run through the background check? This could have interesting repercussions. Could or should the BSA flex its power and revoke all ELCA charters until they (the ELCA) correct this transgression? How can they (the ELCA) assure the IHs are worthy of membership in the BSA with such a ruling?

Ah, but were you taught to make Scouting an outdoor activity? If so, how?

So Volscouter, barring any definitive evidence that one's sexual identity has a greater risk to youth than the other, wouldn't it be prudent to not discriminate on that basis until such factual evidence was presented? Anything else would be considered prejudiced, wouldn't it?

baccus, I'm sorry I struck a raw nerve with facts. I'll try to avoid the obvious. As for "get off religion and back to the discussion of whether the BSA should allow homosexuals entry", well, isn't religion the sole reason to keep homosexuals from leadership roles in the BSA? I mean, there is no factual basis that homosexuals pose any greater real threat to our youth than heterosexuals. Only religious reasons prevail. Right?

I guess it comes down to what is really important to the youth. If its focused on building relationships through using EDGE and other indoor leadership (management) techniques, then it probably is appropriate. You must be comfortable taking youth into the boardroom. If its focused on taking the youth in an environment that requires them to use and practice leadership skills, then it falls short. You must be comfortable taking youth into the wilds. Since Woodbadge is the pinnacle of scouter training, I guess the former is more important to the BSA than the later.

baccus, I believe the chagrin was in the 1970's when the BSA faced a racism charge because LDS units would not provide leadership positions to dark skinned youth as they required those leadership positions to coincide with priesthood roles. Until then, the LDS rejected dark skinned people from holding any leadership position within the church. When that became public, the BSA and the LDS faced a crossroads. The LDS prophets lucky had a revelation that allowed dark skinned males to hold priesthood positions, thus eliminating the contention. But the issue caught many BSA members off guard, realizing that they had indeed racists within their ranks. I consider this change in theology by the ELCA no different than the Mormons changing their rules for priesthood.

The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod does not recommend members join Boy Scouts. I thought it also extended to the conservative Missouri Synod too, but I was mistaken. Us Lutherans are a very diverse bunch, eh? From the WELS website... Question: Do we directly condemn boy scouts or do we just not affiliate ourselves with them? I have read and mostly understand the WELS view on Boy Scouts, but why don't we attack the Pledge of Allegiance because it is an oath to a nation under an indirect God? You might say "they teach that you must work for rewards so forth teaching them to work for heaven", but yet we don't attack business that have their employees work for promotions? We also do not say that our children cannot join clubs at school or go to "Meet you at the Pole" where kids get together and pray for safety of their fellow students. Scouts promotes religion to God as the most important thing. No matter what religion it is. Our country had its pledge written with God in it because primarily all people believed in God back then. Same with scouts. If we don't even associate with other people of other religions how can we win them over? Answer: We do warn against civil religion which treats all religions as one or interchangeable. If the Pledge is used to give that implication, we could not join in it. I do not know what percentage of WELS schools use the pledge. None of the ones I attended used it. Many people, religious or non-religious, have objections to the wording of the Pledge. The reason we say more about scouting is that the topic involves voluntarily joining an organization with false religious priniciples. You hit the nail on the head with your statement "Scouts promotes religion to God as the most important thing. No matter what religion it is." That is exactly why we can't participate. People in this world work for rewards at their jobs, at school, in athletics, and many other endeavors, but these rewards are earthly not spiritual. We have no objection to organizations that give earthly rewards for earthly achievements. Scouting is talking about doing your duty to God by your achievements. That is a very different matter. Believing in God or a god is not the same as believing in the one true God. We can associate with people from outside our faith in every way except joiining them in evil or false worship. We can't win people by joining them in false worship.

Is their plan to have the youth camp with their troop, some boys doing meritbadge stuff, the NYLT guys heading off to do that program during the day? Then return for meals and evening programs? I don't see how you could blend both programs. NYLT around these parts is a 100% dedicated week long program. No time to mix back with your troop of younger guys.

One good thing to come from this is the potluck dinners might have more flair.

Pack, Sometimes I think I'm a lesbian, trapped in a man's body.

Ed, you must have been in Rick Santorum's district. I just love that man on dog angle.

Joebob, Are doctors who see Medicare patients working for the government?

As far as I know, they are private. There may be some public hospitals. The system is a single payer system. Unlike Great Britain, where doctors are employed by the state, in Canada, they are contractors. Much like our Medicare system.

Hey Joe, What would the wait time be for that 25 year old guide in America if he was one of the unfortunate young people without healthcare? Do you think as a guide in America his employer would provide him coverage, being a seasonal employee? Hint, it would be a lot longer than 18 months.

I don't think your stories are made up. But I do think they are cherry picked and don't expose the entire situation faithfully. Your story of the leukemia patient needing to go to the US to get treatment because Canada denied coverage just doesn't make sense. There's something more that wasn't told. I've been to Canada several times. Every Canadian I've asked about their system, every single one, liked their system. I can't say the same thing about Americans. Does it have problems, sure. But it isn't the horror your stories portray.

Ok Brent. You seem to like stories about the Canadian system. Well here's one second person. You see, we went to Bissett MB, that's in Canada, to do our NT trek this summer. Our guide (interpreter) was Canadian. You will relate that you become pretty close to these people in the 8 days you spend in the wilderness. You learn alot about these folk and can pretty much judge their character by the end of the trek, can't you? I'm sure you got a pretty good feel about your guide to NT. Well you see, over the week we learned alot about each other. Turns out that this chap was out camping with his friends about 5 years ago in the boundary waters and doing some rock bouldering above a lake. He dislodged a boulder and it took him to the bottom of the cliff and shattered his hip. Pretty messed up for a Canadian bloke, you think? Well, his friends went out on the canoes and got him some help. They brought in a float plane to evac him and another helicopter to take him from the seaplane base to the city to get help. He went immediately into surgury to repair the damage. Then off to rehab to get him back up and functional. 6 weeks later he was released and was able to go back to work. I asked him, "did you have to wait for care?" Oh no, he said. It was immediate. Well, I said, "Did you have to pay?" Oh No, we are Canadians. I said, well what was the total cost? He said, "about six weeks recovering." Typical Canadian eh? So, for every horror story you read about the Canadian system, think about the real stories I've heard from real Canadians. And think. Is the story made up or modified to fit an agenda, or is it based on a real life experience? The story I just described came from a real Canadian, told to me, over a warm cup of coffee, on an island in the wilds of Manitoba.

Brent, don't blame me if you become evangelical about the BA system! Here's an interesting quote from the article you referenced. "Agreements between Detroit hospitals and the Ontario Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care for heart, imaging tests, bariatric and other services provide access to some services not immediately available in the province, said ministry spokesman David Jensen. The agreements show how a country with a national care system -- a proposal not part of the health care changes under discussion in Congress -- copes with demand for care with U.S. partnerships, rather than building new facilities." Sounds to me like a synergistic arrangement between to geographically connected entities to share resources. Not the denial of care by an oppressive government you implied in your original post. Could this be part of the scare tactics employed by some who don't want reform?

Brent, That's a horrible story. Do you have any more details? Why was his care denied in Canada? Did he go before a death panel and they decided to kill him? Do all Canadians who have Leukemia get denied care? If he came to America to get treatment, did he pay out of pocket or was he like all the illegal aliens who get free health care by us because we can't turn them away? Did I pay for his treatment? If he did pay out of pocket, he couldn't find a doctor in Canada who could perform the bone marrow transplant on a private pay, of course, assuming the Canadian government denied he had cancer? Is America the only country left that can still do bone marrow transplants? So many questions. But a good story to scare Americans to never consider the Canadian system. Golf clap.

Denver Area Council, Tahosa Alpine Adventure is what you are looking for. http://www.denverboyscouts.org/openrosters/ViewOrgPageLink.asp?LinkKey=11107&orgkey=51

And Brent, Our gun laws are far more relaxed than say, France, Switzerland, Or Norway.

Maybe it was the time of the year, October, but my wife didn't need any special permit (lottery) to do the Rim to Rim. They actually didn't do the whole trek, just from Rim to bottom, stayed at the ranch on the bottom and hiked back out the next day to their cars. The only reservation was at the ranch and I suppose if you do the Rim to Rim, a ride back to the other side on a bus. But the park service didn't restrict the number of people on the trail. Like they do for river trips. Supai, I guess, is just like any other Indian reservation. Trash everywhere, houses and buildings in disrepair. Obese locals glowering at the visitors. A sense that drugs and alcohol are a real problem, confirmed by the Backpacker Mag article. But if you overlook that, its a wonderful place.

Brent, I have both the BA 15 degree pad and the uninsulated version, which is lighter and packs smaller. I use it for summer. The 15 pad is fine in the coldest conditions, but I augment it with a closed cell blue pad when sleeping on ice or snow. But I would do that with my old thermorest pad too. Do yourself a favor Brent, go try the BA and the REI knockoff of it before dropping more money on another Therm.

Brent, at least their reform is starting from a point way beyond our current system. Heck, with global warming, it might become habitable in the winter soon anyways.