GernBlansten

What a perfect opportunity for enhancing the scouts pioneering skills and service. Just get a fireplace bellows, some duct tape and a signup sheet for the scouts to rotate bellows duty through the night.

http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/canteen-boy-and-the-scoutmaster/999462/ I guess this is covered by the satire exclusion.

When I did IOLS about 6 years ago, it was Friday night through Sunday noon. At least half of the attendees were LDS. Everyone stayed until Sunday noon. At that point in my scouting, I was not aware of the LDS not scouting on Sundays. It just wasn't an issue. I didn't become aware of it until my first camporee which closed on Saturday and half the units packed up and left.

Gary, the problem with the registration policies of the LDS is that you yourself use the inflated numbers of youth served by the LDS/BSA program as justification for the LDS to sway and control the policies of the BSA. As minority members of the organization (on paper only), that really chaffs us when that power is artificial and unjustifiable.

In Colorado, they recently rescinded a "blue" law allowing liquor to be sold on Sunday. You know who fought it the most? Small liquor stores. They enjoyed having a day off where all their competition also were closed. The big liquor store lobby was successful on overturning the law. They have minimum wage employees they can staff the stores with. The small mom and pop stores now have to stay open on Sundays just to keep alive. Liquor sales did not go up. Formerly, customers would plan ahead and buy enough to get them through Sunday. So the small guys who staff their own stores now lost their day off and sell no more liquor per week than they did before. But it is nice for those of us who like to enjoy an adult beverage watching a game on Sunday and can't seem to plan ahead. Car dealers here are also closed Sunday. Not sure if its a blue law or just a casual agreement. Motorcycle dealers here are closed Sunday and Monday.

Nor am I saying it should. Just sayin' in could.

Tough being a non-denominational, multi-cultural organization isn't it? Especially when we all can't even agree which day the Sabbath is to be observed and to what degree observing it means to our schedules. Of course, one 800lbs gorilla could lobby national to make the decision for us all.

I would have more faith in the actual number of youth served by LDS COs if they didn't enroll every youth and pay their membership dues the entire time they are of scouting age. Most non-LDS COs do not do this and every annual re-charter weeds out inactive scouts due to simple economics. If the scout or parent don't pony up the money, the scout is dropped from the charter as COs simply do not have the resources or will to maintain enrollment of an inactive/disinterested non-paying scout. The ghost scout scandals of yesteryear were due to councils keeping inactive/ghost/non-existent scouts and units on the books to overstate their impact on communities for fund raising purposes. This was different in that it was the council doing it, not the CO.

Triple Crown, a national patch earned by attending all three National High Adventure bases. Philmont, Northern Tiers and Seabase.

I don't speak for others but here's my list of grievances. Please note, none of these are a slam on Mormons or their theology. 1) They carry the most power within the BSA due to their chartering scheme and are unashamed to wield that power over the minority in manipulating national policy. 2) Their policy to enroll every age appropriate male youth in the program and maintain that membership despite their interest grossly exaggerates the number of youth served. Then use those numbers to justify #1. 3) The most embarrassing episodes in BSA history are tied to LDS charters. Forest fire in Utah a few years ago, the recent sex abuse case in Oregon, the racial discrimination case in the 70s. 4) They manipulate the BSA program to better fit their use of it to prepare the boys for missionary service, yet hold firm that other units may not adjust the program to better serve individual communities. I.E. the local option for membership. In fact, they have threatened to leave the BSA, in mass, if a local option was adopted by national. 5) Most LDS units are closed units, exclusive to the LDS wards, whereas most other units are a cross section of the communities they serve. One of the biggest benefits of being a Boy Scout is to interact and serve with a diversity of beliefs and cultures. To learn from those differences and strengthen your own character. 6) Interaction and fellowship between LDS and non-LDS units is nearly non-existent.

Phobia: 1. A persistent, abnormal, and irrational fear of a specific thing or situation that compels one to avoid it, despite the awareness and reassurance that it is not dangerous. 2. A strong fear, dislike, or aversion.

Pack, you were wondering what the LDS gains from adopting the BSA program for their male youth instead of designing their own? I have a theory. Its an attempt to become more mainstream. What better program to adopt for your youth than the mom and apple pie image the Boy Scouts have. The general public doesn't connect the BSA with any particular faith. The LDS have always faced a resistance to mainstream acceptance by other protestant faiths. Aligning themselves with the BSA puts them on the same level as the Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists and Presbyterians. Unfortunately, the LDS cannot accept the standard BSA program all other faiths and organizations can and see a need to modify it to their needs. In the past this meant non-white scouts could not serve as SPL as they required the SPL to also hold the LDS priesthood. That got the BSA in a pickle. Something had to change. "From 1849 to 1978, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) had a policy against ordaining black men of African descent to the priesthood. Under the same policy, black men and women of African descent were prohibited from participating in the temple Endowment and sealings, ordinances that the church teaches are necessary for the highest degree of salvation. However, the LDS Church has always had an open membership policy for all races, and black people who were aware of the racial policy did join the church. In 1978, church leaders ceased the racial restriction policy, declaring that they had received a revelation instructing them to do so. Today, the church opposes racial discrimination and racism." Either the LDS doctrine or racial discrimination or the BSA anti-discrimination rule needed to prevail. They could not co-exist. Amazingly, and rightly, the LDS accepted non-whites through revelation to hold the priesthood and the BSA issue went away. However, this disconnect still leads to LDS exclusive units and no interaction with other non-LDS units. Most on the east coast do not understand this division, but those of us in the western states see it at every scouting event.

"GernBlansten, Why would a supporter of BSA even participate in the web site you posted is beyond reason." It is difficult to develop an informed opinion about a relationship unless one knows all sides of the issue. The first website only shows favorable BSA/LDS relationships. The site I posted shows the other side. In a thread about LDS/BSA relationships, shouldn't a watershed event in history be brought up? Especially one with significant ramifications to both parties? Like FoxNews, I report, you decide.

An alternative resource for studying the history of the LDS/BSA is http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/lds-top.html Note: the 1974 case of the Mormon doctrine of discrimination against blacks brought the Boy Scouts into a serious confrontation with the NAACP. The Boy Scouts of America did not discriminate because of race, but LDS sponsored troops did have a policy of racial discrimination. This case brought significant changes to the LDS faith, where a revelation was required to resolve it. A revelation by the LDS prophet that dark skinned men could obtain the priesthood.

That's my point Baden. I'll accept the total number of units is high and actual for the LDS, but the number of registered youth is artificial and not representative of the real number of active LDS youth. You say 40% are paper scouts, I'd say from my observations its much higher. Sounds to me that the LDS registers a scout at 8 and continues to keep him registered until 18 independent of his activity or the wishes of the parents. No other charter organization does this. Using the argument that the LDS serves the majority of scouts means they should swing the biggest stick is not based on actual kids in the field wearing the uniform. In non-LDS units there are no paper scouts, at least in the units I've been involved in. Who would pay for them? Every scout who registers is active or at least shows some interest sometime during the year and if they don't the next year, they are dropped.

I stand corrected Gary. I wonder if the United Methodists enrolled every boy of scouting age like LDS do without regard to the boys interest in scouting, if they would be the 800 lbs gorilla?

Gary, While I will agree with you that the LDS charters the most units, they are not the majority of registered scouts by a long shot. This is one of my pet peeves. The power of the LDS is exaggerated due to the voting structure of the BSA charter orgs and the way the LDS charters every ward. Now if the LDS consolidated several wards into one larger unit the size of a typical non-LDS unit in the region, the disparity of power would not exist.

In the Denver Area, the LDS have a pretty big influence on Scouting. Most of the LDS units are tiny, with only a handful of scouts. But there are a lot of units. One per ward from my understanding. In our small community we have two large non-LDS units and probably 10 LDS. But the total number of active non-LDS scouts is greater. Our unit has 80 scouts, the other is about 90. The only interaction with LDS units we have is at camporees. The district designs the camporees around the LDS schedule and start on Friday night and break before sunset on Saturday. Non-LDS units usually hang around Saturday night and run their own program sometimes with other units. The council reserves the summer camp exclusively for LDS the last two weeks of the summer so we never mix with them at summer camp. In all the high adventure trips we've done, we never crossed paths with an LDS unit either in the field or at base. And I ask every scouter who their charter org is at cracker barrels. The LDS also have a large impact at the district level. Most volunteers at the district level are LDS and roundtables are typically held at LDS facilities. When we have an EBOR, the council/district representative is typically LDS. At one board, the LDS rep commented during our deliberation that he had just done a board for another unit where the scout had achieved the Triple Crown and over 100 nights camping and that he was impressed. I then made the comment to him that the candidate we just reviewed had the Triple Crown and most of our Eagles had done at least two national HAs and our unit logs at least 30 nights camping and a HA every year. He was floored at our outdoor program. I didn't think it was atypical, but perhaps it is. I'm not saying the LDS don't have a strong outdoor program, but I did find it strange that he thought our's was unusually active. One thing that I am curious about is how an LDS unit employs the patrol method with the way they organize their troops. First off, they are typically small but then the age bands they utilize further diminish the size and age diversity of the patrols. Can you successfully utilize the patrol method?

Heresy.

All fine examples of socialism.

Are you all saying that NASA is not socialism?

I bring up the Tea Party because they are the most vocal critics of government spending we have right now. Lots of rally signs how socialism is destroying America. Not one sign is targeting NASA in those rallies. Yet, NASA is the crown jewel of socialism. Take public money (tax dollars), let the government decide how to spend it (and lots of it), and the rewards will come back to the people. Karl Marx would be proud. And in a real twist of logic, Obama wants private institutions to take the lead on human space travel. Commercialize it. An avowed socialist embracing privatization. And conservative critics denouncing the move. Bizzaro.

How is funding NASA any different than bailing out Wall Street or GM? Seems like a government hand out to high tech companies. Why is some socialism good, and other socialism bad?

Someone please remind me where in the US Constitution that NASA funding is authorized. Why isn't the Tea Party protesting NASA?

Amazing. With all the news about how the Tea Party's are making a point that our government is out of control and spending beyond its means and we need to limit the size and scope of the government....we still get lots of support for the government run space programs. Even though Obama wants to privatize it, like Bush wanted to with Social Security. You know, capitalism will ultimately pave the way to world dominance. Right? I guess dreaming about Buck Rodgers can turn the most ardent fiscal conservative into a flaming socialist. Are we living in bizarro world or what?