GernBlansten

I think there are many on this forum that would disagree with you. But, if you are correct and atheist youth can join, why doesn't that come out in any of the court hearings? It sure doesn't seem like official BSA policy. More of a local option, albeit unofficial. Just think how many of BSA's legal problems would disappear if they made the local option an official BSA policy.

So are atheist boys still banned from scouting? I understand the DRP excludes adult atheists, but are youth held to the same standard? I'm confused.

Whooa! Hold your horses! I thought the majority of BSA's problems using public resources was due to the fact that they excluded services to the un-faithed. Is that still not true? Don't those services relate to the youth, not the adult volunteers? Can a boy who says he is an atheist be a Boy Scout? What, you gonna let him join, but then put the thumb screws on him to say "repent, or be expelled!"? I can't believe what I'm reading here.

Interesting twist. We now have scouters claiming that atheist boys can join BSA but not adults? Is that right? I thought athiests could not be members. Period. Agnostics too. BTW, R. Lee Ermys first movie roll was in Boys of Company C. A great Vietnam movie but not up to FMJ standards. Definitely not for kids. FMJ launched him to fame which led to the lead role in Siege of Firebase Gloria. Another not for kids movie, but OK low budget Vietnam flick. He never did Hamburger Hill. Another interesting tidbit on RL Ermy, he never was a Gunnery Sargent in the Marines. That title was bestowed on him ceremoniously because of his movie roles. Yet in his History Channel show, he claimed he was a US Marine Corps Gunnery Sargent. That ruffled some feathers of true gunnery sergeants. Kinda like the honorary title of Colonel Sanders. Never the less, he was effective in my early decisions not to join the Marine Corps. I never wanted to deal with that type of man as my superior. But I do love his characters.

"Gern, dats a bit odd for you, eh? I would have expected you were more of a Stripes fellow." I'm a HUGE Kubrick fan and thought FMJ was his second best work, right behind Dr. Strangelove. Of course, he only directed half of FMJ, but wrote the screenplay. Care to guess which half of FMJ was all Kubrick?

The way I see it is the DRP is just too loose to really be of value. Heck, one could believe in a rock, The Force, Elvis or any other organized religous movement and meet the requirements of the DRP. Except pure atheism. Those that profess that, are not welcome. But everyone else is. But it aligns with the rest of the scout oath. There is no DFP (Declaration of Fitness Principles). If there were, how many of the roundtable jelly donut eating WBadgers would be eligble? Perhaps I should call one out next time I see one at roundtable. Scouter Blansten: What is that? What the heck is that? WHAT IS THAT, SCOUTER PYLE? Scouter Pyle: Sir, a jelly doughnut, sir! Scouter Blansten: A jelly doughnut? Scouter Pyle: Sir, yes, sir! Scouter Blansten: How did it get here? Scouter Pyle: Sir, I took it from the welcome tray, sir! Scouter Blansten: Is chow allowed in the roundtable, Scouter Pyle? Scouter Pyle: Sir, no, sir! Scouter Blansten: Are you allowed to eat jelly doughnuts, Scouter Pyle? Scouter Pyle: Sir, no, sir! Scouter Blansten: And why not, Scouter Pyle? Scouter Pyle: Sir, because I'm too heavy, sir! Scouter Blansten: Because you are a disgusting fat body, Scouter Pyle! Scouter Pyle: Sir, yes, sir! Scouter Blansten: Then why did you try to sneak a jelly doughnut into roundtable, Scouter Pyle? Scouter Pyle: Sir, because I was hungry, sir! Scouter Blansten: Because you were hungry... [turns and addresses rest of roundtable] Scouter Blansten: Scouter Pyle has dishonored himself and dishonored the roundtable. I have tried to help him. But I have failed. I have failed because YOU have not helped me. YOU people, have not given Scouter Pyle the proper motivation! So, from now on, whenever Scouter Pyle messes up, I will not punish him! I will punish all of YOU! And the way I see it ladies, you owe me for ONE JELLY DOUGHNUT! NOW, GET DOWN ON YOUR FACES! [rest of roundtable get in front-leaning-rest position, Blansten turns to Pyle] Scouter Blansten: Open your mouth! [shoves jelly doughnut into PYLE's mouth] Scouter Blansten: They're payin' for it; YOU eat it! Ready! Exercise!

One of my Eagles, I call him that because I was one of his leaders through his path to Eagle and I think of him as mine, still wears his Eagle patch and medal on his uniform. He is now 19 and an adult in BSA eyes. He's registered as an ASM in our troop. He's also special needs. Asperger Syndrome. I've been to Philmont and Northern Tiers with him, so many campouts I can't count. He is very proud of his rank and wants everyone to know he's an Eagle. I don't' blame him. I'm not. But I pulled him aside at a recent meeting and made notice of his youth patches and medal on his uniform. I told him that I was very proud of him to make that rank. He thanked me. I also said I'm very proud of you as an adult in the troop now. He thanked me. I said, you know, if those patches are a symbol for the youth. There's a very special symbol for adults who have earned that rank and its the Eagle knot. He knew of it. I said, do you want to be viewed as a youth or an adult? He made the right choice.

Scouting needs to abandon the leadership mantra and return to the outdoor mantra. Getting boys into the wilds will foster leadership. Focus on adventure. Keep it simple. That's what BP really intended. And it IS still relevant. Boys are drawn to fun challenges, not team building exercises. Kudu is right, woodbadge 21, EDGE, and manager training killed the BSA.

My favorite response to the JWs when they come visiting is to ask them how many people go to heaven. They respond 144,000. I ask them how many are in their faith, they respond millions. So I say, if you convert me to your religion and I am better than you at doing it, I will take a heavenly slot from you. Do you really want more competition?

Hey, I want those fellas to come back, and hopefully bring a few friends. In a month or two, I'll be ready to put the body back on the chassis and the more the merrier.

Scoutfish, you bring back fond memories. I rebuild classic VWs. When I'm working on my cars, I leave the garage doors open and play classic rock music from the HIFI. One beautiful Saturday recently, two very nice young men in white shirts, ties and day packs strolled up my driveway to discuss my salvation. I greeted them with a hardy handshake. I have keen interest in their faith and had many questions I needed answered. They dutifully answered them and we shared some laughs. They then asked if they could help around the house. Well, I was just ready to separate the body of the 72 Karmann Ghia from its pan and surely could use a couple of extra hands. After another hour of spirited spiritual banter and tugging on the body, we separated the two parts, laid the body on the ground and exposed the glory of German engineering. Needless to say the two young men no longer had white shirts, but we did enjoy our discussion and they left me some literature on their faith. We bid farewell with invitations to come on back and help me reassemble the beast on a latter day. I do enjoy when people visit.

I think Merlyn's point is that lack of belief is not a belief.

"I just view Jesus the way I view Elvis. I love the guy, but some of the fan clubs scare me." Fugelsang

I don't know Meryln personally nor he knows me, except for this forum. I am a Deist. There are many like us. Many of the founding fathers were Deists. We are also known as the un-churched. But we are not athiests in the traditional sense. I do have difficulty with the traditional Duty To God part of the oath because my God (or whatever you wish to all it) does not require a duty to serve it personally. However, I and my Eagle scout son, fit within the confines of the BSA DRP because the requirement for faith is so undefined and inconsistently enforced to make it a joke. So what is our duty to God? Since we feel it is all of creation, our duty is to take care of that creation. Some call us environmentalist wackos. Others would say we are just doing our duty. What say you?

Isn't it ironic that an organization who universally agrees there's a membership decline problem, work so hard defending their right to keep people from joining?

I think you have to be pretty dedicated to your chosen sport by the time you are 10. Same time as a boy would make the decision to cross over to boy scouts. If you don't, you will not have the opportunities to play in HS or college, at least varsity level. Unless you are super talented or in a sport that doesn't have much competition.

My daughter is falling into the sports trap now, and the mileage on my cars prove it. "off" season volleyball is much more important the HS VB and it ain't cheap. Teams compete for the best players with promises of Olympics or scholarships. Its pretty cut throat. Your daughter doesn't make the top team, you shop her down the line until she makes one. That team may be in the next town or further. Come HS VB season, and its a mix of skills and rarely are they as good as the road teams. My daughter is probably a 3rd tier travel team player, but she's a varsity starter in HS and only a sophmore. My brother in law is going through the same thing with is daughter, only basketball. They drive 60 miles each way to practice. Luckily, number one son didn't do sports until HS and had plenty of time for scouting. He doesn't now, but did before he was 16.

OGE, I don't disagree. But when BSA had a good relationship with public schools, they had ready made charter organizations. Teachers could be recruited to help out (sure didn't hurt their relationship with the boss!), resources made available. With the decision to abandon that relationship, now it was thrown back on the parents to run the show. Teachers can still volunteer, but less likely. All supposedly busy (read selfish) parents need is another excuse not to get involved and having to do it all might be the straw that breaks the back.

Before Dale, public schools held the largest number of cub pack charters. After Dale, they were forced to disassociate. Lucky packs found non-public charter orgs to sponsor them. Unlucky ones, disappeared. Before Dale, it was simple to start a new pack at a new school. The council simply called the principle. Now it requires a lot more legwork and commitment from already overworked parents. To think that this constriction in easily accessible and maintainable charter relationships didn't have a negative impact on growth is to say the least, fascinating.

The numbers may be worse than reported. Didn't the LDS recently (within the past 10 years) start enrolling every age appropriate youth regardless of activity? And continue their enrollment until they age out.

Its a combination of things. Everything OGE said. But also I think the current social conservative bent the BSA (and its major chartering partners) project is becoming increasingly distasteful to younger parents. Young adults are far more accepting of gays and athiests than those of my generation and far, far more than those of my parents. Also, the ban on schools sponsoring cub packs really hurt the BSA. Back in my time, every elementary school had a pack. Now none do. This antagonistic relationship between schools and the BSA severely crippled the recruitment potential. Without a constant stream of eager cubs, boy scouts will naturally decline as well. And Ed, if its cyclical, you should be able to demonstrate a statistical model showing it happening before. The decline in the 70s was due to a massive change in BSA program and not stopped until the program was remediated. Perhaps this decline is due to something similar but not based on a change in policy, but an enforcement of an often ignored one.

Another example of winning the battle but losing the war. Look to an increasing contentious relationships between the BSA and government entities.

And this case could have been easily avoided with two words: Local option.

Eagle92, you clearly haven't read Jeal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baden-Powell_(book)

Well, looks like ol Beavah got under Brent's skin again. Good to see that I'm not the only one who can rile up the good ole boy! Come last Sunday, I attended an ECOH for two brothers who earned their award about a year apart. The first one decided to wait for his younger brother to hold the COH until he got it, as a motivating factor I guess. I participated with both throughout their scouting, in fact, the younger one attended my first campout as a cub dad. My son was in the Eagles Nest, a place of honor at all of our ECOH for those who previously earned the rank and a place I will never enjoy. I was there, in full and correct uniform, down to my socks. No bling. No knots, no OA devices, no HA patches, just the basic uniform. During the presentation of the eagle award, the younger scout called me forward to present me with a mentor pin. I was honored. He and I had shared many adventures and we both enjoyed his journey to eagle. I went forward and he pinned it on my uniform. We shared a hardy handshake and I thanked and congratulated him. I returned to my seat in the sanctuary and enjoyed the remaining ceremony. Later that afternoon, after I returned home, took that mentor pin off and put it in my box of scouting mementos with the other eight mentor pins, knots, patches I've collected over the years. Then hung my pristine and correct uniform back in the closet. I don't do this for the recognition or adult advancement. I do it because I care about the boys and enjoy working with them. I appreciate the recognition, but it doesn't motivate me. I guess that makes me not a member of the GOBN.