GernBlansten

How about presenting the campout as an opportunity for Eagle candidates to demonstrate their leadership, maturity and outdoorsmanship skills. Tell them it would look good at their BOR. Of course, if they returned with fewer scouts than they started with, it could go against them. Unless those lost scouts are the ones we all deal with on a regular basis. wink wink.

Yes, I see the error in my ways, G2SS does have an exemption for patrol campouts. But what fun is it to go backyard camping? Our scouts are fully capable of backpacking a few miles into the forest, setting up camp and getting out in one piece. I feel if the SM approves the plan, we should be OK. Now for the tour permit stuff. Obviously we need one to transport the scouts to the destination, I agree, no scout should drive another. We have plenty of adults to fulfill that task. I guess on the permit, we just reference the trip as a campout, the patrol heads of on its own, and we collect them at the end of the trip.

Dynamite! I like it. I assume this would have to come from BSA and could not be a unit level requirement. Something about adding requirements I read here before. Not that BSA doesn't change things, ie the new 1st Class requirement, but I won't hold my breath.

Thanks. I don't have my G2SS or Scoutmaster handbook handy, but it sounds like the two contradict each other, I will research tonight though. I guess we can do this since this a patrol activity. I could be wrong. My thought would be to obtain a tour permit to drop off the scouts at a trail head then pick them back up at a designated time. I think it would be a dynamite way to reward some of our older scouts and expose some of our younger ones to youth leadership. Nothing instills responsibility better than really being responsible for someone elses little treasure. note: yeah, I would probably give them a big wave goodbye and secretly sneek up the trail behind them a few hours later to check up on them from the shadows.

Taamland, Shock and Awe was the response from our committee, thats why I came here to ask. I think its a great idea. Aren't we trying to turn these skulls full of mush into self reliant young adults?

Had a request by one patrol to do an adult free overnight in the woods. You know, just scouts, no adult leaders. These are accomplished campers and we have no doubt they will handle themselves in a safe and responsible way. Are there BSA rules that would disallow this activity? If it is allowed, what would be the minimum age/rank you would require?

Pop Quiz, What have we learned from these threads? Why can a school officially sponsor a Jewish Student Union or a Good News Bible Club, but not a Scout Unit? If the Jewish Student Union or Good News Bible Club invited anyone to join regardless of their religious affiliation or sexual preference, then yes, a school could sponsor such an organization. If they discriminated membership based on those attributes, then no they should not sponsor them. Schools are about equal access. Its not just a good idea, its the law.

FScouter, What is your duty to God? How do you demonstrate it? Is it the same as my duty to God? My duty to God is to follow the golden rule and treat my fellow humans as I would like to be treated. If figure if He put me here, its the least I can do in return. Your duty to God is probably different. I'm a diest. I believe in God, but I don't openly worship Him. I don't think He needs it or is much interested in what I do here on earth. Duty to God is a personal thing. Can an agnostic have a duty to God? Perhaps. Can an athiest, probably not. Its not my place to judge it. Would you like me judging your duty to God to see if it meets the requirement? What is enough duty to God? What is too little? Can it be measured or quantified? And remember the oath is "On my honor I will do my best To do my duty to God and my country ". Its MY duty to God. That phrasing tells me its personal; I define it, I promise it, I live up to it.

You didn't answer my question, either. How long do you give this Scout to make this "choice"? Five Minutes? A Fortnight? Five months, 30 days, 23 hours, 59 minutes, and 59 seconds? How about until his 18th birthday. What are you people afraid of? That this agnostic scout is going to convert other scouts to agnosticism? Most agnostics I know aren't closet athiests, they just don't see organized religion as holding the all the answers. If a scout came up to me for advancement and made the claim of agnostic, I would explain to him the membership requirements of BSA, then explain that he could meet these requirements by not labeling his belief as agnostic, but that he accepts there is a higher being but not how that being manifests himself. He need not demonstrate this belief by attending any church, just accept the higher being. Am I wrong here? Wouldn't that meet the membership requirement? BTW, where is it in the 2nd class rank requirements that grace be said before advancement?

Semper, That scene was immoralized in the movie Naked Gun with Leslie Nielsen. Good fun eh?

I for one have never and will never openly express my concern and disagreement with BSA on its gay policy for fear of being expelled from membership. Forums such as this give me an outlet, anonymously. So do quiet conversations at the campfire with other scouters who share my values (and there are quite a few). But never, never, ever would I stand at a roundtable or in front of an executive and express those views. At least not until my son has lost interest or aged out. Until then, I hold my tongue. I do it for my son.

In Colorado, just two years ago, the state legistlature passed a law that required the pledge be recited by every public student. It was overturned by the state court on grounds that no American should be forced to a loyalty oath. Had nothing to do with "under God". I agree that the high court rejected hearing the Newdow case on a technicality. I'm sure Rehnquist had the foresight to see that the court would rule unanimously to outlaw the pledge in schools if pressed to do so. So they found an easy out. If the court were to rule based strictly on the constitution (as we would expect them to), they would have to rule that the pledge violates a person's freedom of religion. For those that find no offense to the "under God" part, replace that phrase with "under no God" and see if that offends you. Since we have a history of "tweeking" the pledge over time, perhaps its time to give it another tweek. Put the issue to rest. Lets get all up in arms over something more pressing.

To what degree did the DE specify the training required? Our unit requires YPT for any adult who attends our outings. Most adults, (leaders and parents) have complied, but not all. All our ASMs and SM have attended NLE, SMLST or outdoor training (or are working through it). A couple are wood badge trained. Some of our committee members are just committee member trained, but not all. So would our unit qualify as trained in this DE's eyes?

FS, Two different kinds of decline. Decline in membership(joined but left) and Decline in recruitment (never joined). 8 is huge if you are looking at membership loss. The rest are huge if you are looking at Recuitment decline. If you can't get them to join, you can't deliver the program.

Not a single cause but a compilation of reasons. 1 is huge, kids have way too many competitors for their time and interest, scouting is just another option in a busy schedule. 6,7,9,10 are indicators of scouting slipping from the mainstream of public opinion. Many parents simply do not want their children exposed to the discrimination practices of BSA. Also, to be a scout now puts you in the "NERD/GEEK" crowd amounst their peers. It just ain't cool to be scout now. 3,4,5,11 just reinforce negative perceptions of BSA by their detractors. and of course 8, if you don't deliver a good program, you won't retain them. That's the primary reason I left scouting as a boy back in the 70s.

I too heard the 3 year spread issue in my YP training. Also, the instructor clearly stated that no scout should sleep alone in a tent. I know because I asked him the question. Now whether it is BSA policy, I will defer to Bob.

I'm a bit dense but now I think I understand. Membership numbers are down because of us volunteers. It all comes down on us unpaid lackeys who just don't get it. The paid dudes at the top are doing their best, but us unwashed masses just can't deliver it. It had eluded me for a while, but I've had an eppiphany. Thanks BW. I'll take that to the next committee meeting and spread your vision.

A few posts ago, it was mentioned that some COs require membership to accept Jesus as their personal savior. Obviously, BSA has some national membership policies that COs must follow, like non-discrimination by race, mandatory discrimation of athiests and gays, non-discrimination of women in leadership roles. Aside from the LDS (I'm not sure how they fit into the grand scheme of traditional BSA units), are COs given a great deal of latitude to set their own membership requirements like the personal savior one as long as they follow the national policies too?

Trevorum is correct. My faith doesn't follow a sacred scripture or any standardized documentation so I must refrain from answering FBs query as requested.

Where were the other leaders who allowed this to happen? Did they take YPT? I don't understand why the article was slanted that the perp took YPT and there was some indication that YPT failed. If this occured at a scout function, it was the other adults that failed, not YPT. Some adults in my unit have nicknamed me the YPT Nazi, because I constantly remind them not to violate any of its guidelines. Some are offended, saying they are not molesters. My response is I don't know, but YPT protects them just as much as the scout.

I see Bob. Until you have acheived all the training and success at the local level, "shut your pie hole". Sorry, can't agree there, just isn't in me. Yes, recruitment is done at the local level, but National has a black eye right now and their exploits are making it difficult to convince parents that BSA is a good organization for their kids. I'm not talking about parents who have a history with BSA, I'm talking new families who never experienced it. Case in point, my son tried to recruit his best friend, his dad said no way. He wouldn't allow his son to be involved in an organization that openly discriminates against athiests and gays. This was from a man who was neither, but thought BSA was intolerant and didn't want his son exposed to that intolerance. He wasn't targeting my unit's policies, his problem was with the National policy. No matter how trained nor how well we run our local program, we cannot recruit this type of family. I think BSA needs to do some damage control with some national advertising campaign on the virtues of becoming a scout. I think they need to address the issues that keep getting them into trouble, like discriminatory membership policies. Instead, National just digs its heals in deeper.

So FGoodwin, are you saying you are OK with declining enrollment of scouts? If anything, I think that's where National is falling down. They can justify their salaries and other bennies if they are attracting new membership and growing the BSA. Where's the growth?

and BSA is an advertising company. Check out www.bsa.com

The asset gap could be tents. The GSA doesn't not camp in tents.

We have a young man with Asperger's Disorder, a form of autism, in our troop. Big scout, physically. He has plenty of issues that our troop handles quite well in my opinion. Positions of responsibility are some of the biggest problems as he gets frustrated and mildly violent trying to lead other scouts. Otherwise, the troop works well with him, giving him tasks that interest him and know he can do well. He just achieved Life rank and will soon become an Eagle scout I'm sure. My limited experience with Downs Syndrome kids is that they are passive and well behaved. You should have few of the issues other disorders can bring.