GernBlansten

Well, funscouter, from this red blooded American who lives deep in the heart of the reddest county of a purple state who frequently has blue thoughts, no offense taken. Or would that be blue blooded?

Rick, I was refering to specific LDS religious requirements for advancement. Wasn't that one of the problems that LDS units faced back in the 1970s when they didn't allow blacks to become leaders in the LDS church? A black scout could not serve in a leadership role in the LDS church and therefore could not advance in a LDS unit. Traditional BSA units cannot add requirements but LDS does, don't they? Also, traditional units do not segregate the scouts by age like LDS units do. I think that type of segregation doesn't allow older scouts to lead younger ones. Those are dramatic differences in the way LDS units deliver the program from the rest of us. Why can't the LDS units just deliver the program like the majority are required too?

Rick, I don't think anyone here is making fun of the traditions of the LDS. The fact that BSA condones the LDS to make changes to the program, sometimes dramatic changes, rubs some of us the wrong way. It isn't a comment on the validity of the LDS church or their beliefs. If anything, its critical of BSA for allowing such deviations. A discussion on why LDS units differ from traditional BSA units is worthy and frankly quite interesting.

Wow Brent, You certainly aren't suggesting that you would not support scouting if your council office was located in a low rent district are you? Councils who occupy high rent offices then complain about funding just have their priorities askew. In fact, I would be far more generous with my donations to scouting if they demonstrated thrift not extravagance.

Fascinating GB. Thanks for sharing. My own independant research has confirmed much of what you wrote. In our council, 50% of the troops are LDS (no we are not in Utah). The local LDS stake also offers their meeting hall for our district wide annual training event, that seemed strange to me with their perceived history of not requiring training for adults. But from what you imply, perhaps that has changed. One other difference from your observation, every LDS unit around here breaks camp on Saturday before dinner. They never stay Saturday night.

I have no idea the finacial health of our council but stories like this make me shudder. We have a council office and scout shop located in a very upscale office building in the heart of our technology center. I'm sure the rent on that space is high. Now perhaps they have a very generous patron who leases the space to them well below market value. Obviously, scouting doesn't need prestigious office space. They could do the same job in a third rate remodeled strip mall. I might post that question when the FOS guy comes around.

Or, you could take it that since the 10 Commandments and the Greek gods are featured that in the governments eyes they are all equal Equally regarded, or equally disregarded?

During the height of the Civil War, Abe Lincoln was asked by a report if God was on the side of the Union Army. He responded, "Don't pray that God's on our side, pray that we're on his side. "(This message has been edited by GernBlansten)

I often wondered why the ACLU hasn't come to the defense of the 2nd Ammendment. But then I realized that there is another well funded organization of lawyers who have taken that cause, the NRA. They do the the heavy lifting on #2 so the ACLU can focus on the rest of the constitution. Think of it as teamwork.

OGE writes: Its pretty much all agreed by conservatives that liberals run the airwaves. That Broadcast and print mainstream media is the haven of liberals with only a few islands of conservatism. If that's true, why is it that the ACLU gets a bad rap in the Media as has been claimed? Why doesnt the broad left wing conspiracy of liberal media prop up the ACLU and show what good it does, the things that middle America would appreciate? Perhaps the perceived liberal bias by the conservatives is just that, perceived. You make an excellent point. ACLU does some good things that conservatives would like but they go unreported. If there was a liberal media bias, wouldn't those things be thrown in the face on every news cycle?

I too went to the BPS site and came back with the impression that BP Scouts can be compared to BSA like a fundementalist religious sect to a mainstream religious sect. Take the Fundemantalist Latter Day Saints (FLDS) and the mainstream LDS church for example. FLDS sects still practice the teachings of Smith and Young including polygamy as the LDS church did in the 19th century. But the mainstream LDS church changed its ways for various reasons and have significant differences in practices and beliefs from the FLDS, for better or worse. In fact, the mainstream LDS church does not recognize FLDS sects as Mormons. BP Scouts looks like its an attempt to get back to the core program that BP envisioned for scouting. I would expect BSA not to recogize BP Scouts as a ligitmate scouting organization either.

I get your drift OGE. It is "UnAmerican" to not spin your agenda. The ACLU just presents its cases, lets the courts decide. Isn't there a news channel that touts "We report, you decide". And some commentator that uses the tag "No Spin Zone". Well, the ACLU actually follows that montra. Sure the ACLU could use a Madison Ave ad campaign to polish its image and package itself so that those who can't or won't do the critical thinking can appreciate their efforts. I think it would diminish its significance. Still no cases eh? No cases where the ACLU restricted, removed, stepped on, defiled, abused, constrained, limited, or deminished anyone's civil rights? As for the ACLU poking holes in the Constitution, which ammendment? The ACLU forces adherance to the US Constitution. If any group is punching holes in the consitution, the ACLU cannot be the one. If anything, they are the ones patching it back up. As to whether God is religion. Belief in God requires faith. Faith is religion. As to the 10 commandments in a court house. Only 3 or 4 of the commandments have been accepted into the criminal and civil code. The rest are religious rules that few religious people follow. But that's another thread.

Merlyn, One thing I always ask someone who is complaining about the ACLU to give me one case, one instance where the ACLU has taken the case against civil liberties. Any case. Of course they can't. I for one put civil liberties as one of the highest values in our society. So any organization that protects those liberties, must be worthy.

I'm acting as an OA advisor for my first election in three weeks. I'll bring these issues to the OA scouts running the election. They seem valuable to this event. Thanks for posting your experiences.

Perhaps he is taking Baloo training, or went to see a Yogi master.

Reading Roosters comments just makes me bow my head and shake it in disbelief.

Strawman? Do you disagree that those people who trashed that campsite thought LNT was a crock?

BadenP, what you say is so true. I have a very diverse family (religious wise). My sister is a missionary in North Africa, my niece (her daughter) and her husband are starting a born again church in Minnesota and my brother is in seminary after retiring from his career as a corporate executive. Only my brother has had a truly formal education in religion. The rest seem to know a lot about it, but not the in-depth, comparative education he is receiving. The former tend to be slogan Christians, the latter, analytical Christians.

Gosh Merlyn..err..Brian, I feel like Batman's mask has been torn off to reveal Bruce Wayne. Don't know that I like it either. I'm sure that there are those on this board who are searching the BSA roles to find my name, but I've cleverly misspelled it just enough.

Rooster's comments reminds of a campout last year where we took our first year scouts on a patrol campout. Surely there are a lot of people who think LNT is a crock and this campout was evidence of it. We went into the Colorado Pike National Forest and took a small 4WD trail off the main forest road. Drove about one mile in and found a nice flat spot to setup camp. There was a fire ring, overflowing with burnt beer cans and half burned ashes. Around the site where cut down trees and make shift benches out of the chopped trees. There was an old microwave oven that someone had used for target practice. Broken glass was everywhere. Just outside the parimeter of the campsite where thousands (literally) of beer cans, cigarette butts and trash from previous visitors. Hacked trees and bullet ridden stumps. Even found a couple of condoms (used of course). This is what people who think LNT is a crock do to a forest. It was late and the sun was setting so we decided to camp there. That evening, we had our LNT training. It was the best LNT training I had ever attended. I think it left an impression on the young scouts.

You are spot on Fishsqueezer. We need to minimize the number of trails, not the overuse of the existing ones. In the case of an overused trail, the best thing is to mitigate the issues, not use an alternate route. In Colorado, we have clubs that dedicate their time to build catwalks over wetlands, retaining walls for wash outs and drainage systems to help with erosion. Our OA chapter also helps out.

Actually Fishsqueezer, I never posted anything that claims that C&R fishing is bad for the fishery. Others have, but I haven't. Overall, I don't think it does. Sure some fish are stressed to death by the experience and some are permanently disfigured, but by and large most fish do just fine. C&R doesn't help, doesn't hurt. But that doesn't make it OK. My ethics go beyond immediate measurable impact to the environment. My ethics would not allow me to engage in any activity that derives entertainment from the abuse or exploitation of wildlife. This thread was about how out of touch PETA is on issues. Their C&R policy is often used to demonstrate how out of touch PETA is with society. My goal was to explore their reasoning and demonstrate it really isn't that out of touch and actually aligns with BSAs guidelines. I'm not proposing that fishing be outlawed, I'm just asking every fisherman to consider their own ethics when engaging in the activity. You won't see me in the stream bed with a rod and reel, but you also won't see me on the shore shaking my head. BTW, our troop is heading to Northern Tiers this summer. I plan on fishing for my meals since I don't like MREs. Not for entertainment, but for sustenance. My ethics allow me to do that and they are not supported by PETA.

Our society desperately needs youth organizations to give these kids some structure. Many do not feel comfortable in scouts. I hope all the success they can get.

Interesting perspective FishSqueezer. If I understand your last comment correctly, you would have no issue with one of your scouts handling the sparrow chicks as long as the replaced them back in the nest. Where does it cross the line? When the scout becomes threatened? Like playing with bear cubs? I come from a mountaineering background. Back in the 70s we had a change in the way we approached climbing. We abandoned pitons and expansion bolts in favor of wedges and chocks. Some of us purists would not climb routes that required that equipment. The result was an early version of LNT. By the mid 80s, it was very rare to see any climber with equipment that caused any damage or marks to the climbing routes. Routes that interfered with bird nesting areas were voluntarily closed during breeding seasons. So when BSA adopted LNT for its outdoor ethic guide, I read the entire LNT guidebook. Not just the condensed bullet points. Most of it mirrored our informal ethic in climbing. I was delighted that BSA was concerned with our impact in the wild and was taking positive stance on it. Yes, it changes the way some traditional scouting methods might be executed. Yes, it requires many to adjust their styles and traditions. What bothers me is the same people who rigorously follow other scout methods and policies, take a buffet approach to LNT.

Fishsqueezer, I just noticed that you separate fish from wildlife. Aren't fish inclusive in discussing wildlife? Doesn't the word wildlife cover all creatures not under human control?