GernBlansten

The DRP makes Scouting appear as a youth organization centered around a religious locus. However, in reality, the religious component to scouting is so watered down and generic that it won't suffice to fulfill anyone's spiritual needs. Of the 120 or so merit badges, none are religious. There is no specific religious requirement in any of the rank advancements. In the scout handbook, religion warrants just a few paragraphs. Sure there are religious awards, but none are required unless a CO makes it so. To me, the DRP is unnecessary. Just as unnecessary as a Declaration of Patriotism. The oath and law cover it. Its redundant. I too live in an district that has 40% of the registered scouts are LDS and 60% of the units are LDS. They run their own program with a focus on their religion. I doubt the dropping of the DRP would effect their program one iota, how could it?

I'm not sure the CO could bar this scout unless he didn't meet a pre-defined membership requirement set forth by the CO or National. The CO certainly can't create a new membership requirement just to keep this scout out. Check your troop guidelines for membership and see if he doesn't meet any of them. Otherwise, I think you are just asking for legal trouble. If he does rejoin, I too would keep him on a very short leash and lay out specific behaviour expectations. Of course, all scouts must be held to those same expectations.

The best are the thin ones from West Marine. You surely don't need the thick expedition weights you get at REI or hunting stores. On really cold days, I wear the thin ones under my snowboarding pants. I sleep in them when the temp dips below 30 on campouts. I can be found bumping around the house on weekends in them if there is a nip in the air. They are thin enough not to require an upsize on the pants.

Field report followup. We had our district camporee this weekend. Weather went south. Rained and snowed friday night. Saturday we found 30 degree weather and 30MPH wind. I wore the new pants. I dress in layers and had fleece pants on under the pants. Walking around in the fields our legs got very wet. The supplex material really wicked well and dried off by lunchtime. Got wet again marching around the fields after lunch and wicked off by dinner again. Boys in blue jeans and traditional scout pants just stayed cold and wet all day. I was never cold, the new pants are great wind protection, but need a layer of fleece to stay warm.

The DRP as I see it is the primary reason BSA faces court battles with the ACLU. If BSA left the choice to enforce a DRP to the charter organization, why would there be a mass exodus from scouting? You want alot of religion in your scouting? Go to a CO that emphasises that. You want alot of adventure in your scouting? Go to a CO that supports that. You want a mix? Find a unit that suits your requirements.

My wife and I bought a matching set of Gregory backpacks for our wedding gift back in 1985. We had lots of use of them until the kiddos arrived. They then sat in the basement until my son and I got back into scouting. Now we find ourselves getting ready for Philmont and those packs are just too small. Because of my experience with Gregory, I decided I'd get myself a new one. Well, I must say, they have not slipped in quality or value. But reading the tag, I found one tidbit that fellow scouters might find interesting. "At age 14 Wayne Gregory designed his first backpack as part of a Boy Scout project. Shortly after this experience he met Andy Drollinger, the founder of San Diego California Adventure 16, at a boy scout camporee. Andy was impressed with Waynes design and over the next few years Wayne could be found hanging around the Adventure 16 factory, buying raw materials and tinkering with a variety of backpack ideas. He soon became the young companies second employee."

How can you fix the hole if you don't know where it is, how big it is and why its there in the first place?

Ed: "How does one promote growth in an organization by only pointing out the flaws? " When one finds your ship is sinking, tis better to repair the hole than trim the sails. ---or--- When one finds himself in a hole, the first task is to quit digging.

One tactic I've applied when faced with a confrontational parent is to calmly ask them how they would suggest ME to react to the situation. Then I follow up with asking them how OTHERS should react. Then I finish with asking them what THEY will do personally to rectify the situation. If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem. In a volunteer organization, it isn't about you or me, its about us. Many parents just don't see that.

Does anyone know the history of the DRP (Declaration of Religious Principles) on the BSA application? I talked to my 78 year old momma last night and asked her if she remembered it when she signed my up back in 1972. She says there was no such requirement. Momma might just not remember. So I ask those of you who know BSA history, when was the DRP added to the application? Was it after or in response to Dale? I've always been bothered that it is in the "fine print" of the application at the bottom where the signature is and not a disclaimer big and proud at the top of the form. You know, like on an car lease where they get into the details on how much money you are gonna have to fork over at the end of the lease when you think you are done, they hit you with some hidden costs.

I field tested the pants last weekend on a backpacking trip. 5 miles in with a 50lbs pack (prepping for Philmont). The hips started fraying slightly where my pack rubbed. The supplex material doesn't seem to like being rubbed alot. I've seen that with other outdoor gear I have. As for the integrated belt, I don't like it. It rolled in the sleave. I'd prefer a separate belt that his hung form loops instead of a sleave. Both minor issues I can live with.

Ed, I'm pretty sure Brian knows exactly what he is doing. Dangerous? Only if free speach is dangerous. I am chuckling if you are all taken aback from him posting your own words on his website. If you don't want it repeated, then don't say it here.

I just caught Rodger and Me on cable this afternoon. I'm not sure how Moore got through his Physical Fitness MB. I bet he's just a paper Eagle.

For us baby boomers, I think icons from our era are the popular images during our formative years. John Travolta in a white suit with a finger pointing to the disco ball. Marilyn Monroe standing on the grate holding her skirt down. Richard Nixon giving the victory sign while boarding the helicopter. Snoopy. Pogo. Bugs Bunny.

Moores lust to reveal cooperate injustice and misdemeanour began when he was an Eagle Scout and made a slide show exposing all the businesses that polluted Flint. At 18, Moore won a seat on the Flint school board, making him one of the youngest people in the US to hold public office. I guess Mr. Moore took Citz in the Community a bit too seriously.

Brian, Some of us live by the scout oath and law, other just preach it. You've struck a raw nerve with some of these folks. Suggesting changes to their beloved program is sacrilegious. I hope your skin it thick. Keep thinking out of the box. You got me to thinking though. If Scouting is supposed to be a boy lead movement, why don't boys have control over the national organization and program? With adult mentor-ship of course.

Right on Beavah. I especially like your age/school year groupings. Get back to adventure. Focus the program around that at every age group.

Our troop has both gloom and hope. We had 19 cross over last spring and probably another 20 this coming spring. That's the hope. The gloom is nearly every boy over 15 is dropping out. These are the same boys who designed our schedule and program last winter. Maybe this is just the way things go. Maybe Boy Scouts is really a middle school program.

Stellar idea Ed. Amend the scout oath to say, "On my honor, I will not use cheats"

Brent, How would dropping the DRP effect how you deliver the program in your unit?

BSA has historically adapted to current social norms. In the 1970s, they abolish segregated troops by race. It was due to the public perception that racism was wrong, and any group that allowed it was bad. Smart move in my mind.

I plan on wearing my ARRRRRGyle sweater all day.

I've been wondering what the effect would be if BSA dropped the DRP? Everything else being held the same, what would the net result be? In my opinion, nothing negative, only positive. On the positive: Yes, atheists could join, but may not advance in all units because they might not satisfy the Scout Oath to the degree the unit requires. But how many units hold scouts to the Duty to Country as high as Duty to God? Religious charter orgs could and should control their standards for membership, dropping the DRP wouldn't change that. The ACLU would have nothing to complain about. Schools could charter units again. On the negative: Can't really think of anything negative. I'm sure y'all could come up with something.

I commend Brian for identifying a problem and making suggestions for how to resolve it. I don't think much of what he recommends will change the tide though. To most kids I come across, scouts is like riding a moped. Its real fun until your friends catch you doing it. This thread has made me think why my son likes scouting and why I support him. Why is my son a scout and why am I a scouter? Is it the uniform? No, Scouts is perceived by the majority of youth as a dorky activity. The uniform doesn't help this. Updating the uniform won't solve this. Uniforming is just dorky to most kids, at least uniforms designed and enforced by adults. Is it the religious component? No, I think the religious aspect of scouting is too broad to be a meaningful substitution to specific denominational youth groups. Is it the character development? No, that comes from the parents. Scouting just re-enforces it. Reciting the Scout Law and Oath once a week will not turn an immoral individual into a moral one. Is it the leadership component? No, I think leaders are born not made. Scouting gives a great opportunity to youth who want to polish and develop their leadership skills, but I doubt that is the reason many scouts are scouts. Most scouts avoid high profile leadership positions in our troop. Is it the adult interaction? No, every youth organization has adult interaction. Great scouters can become lifelong friends of scouts. Coaches also develop strong ties to their athletes. Music teachers to their musicians. Scouting doesn't have a corner in this area. Is it the merit badges? No, most scouts do the very minimum required to advance. Very few take advantage of the opportunities to learn diverse and new stuff. Is it the adventure? BINGO! That's what draws my son and myself to the program. No other youth group in our region offers as much adventure as scouting. Without scouting, I would not be camping with my son every month. We would not have canoed in the wilderness for a week. We would not have slept in a snow cave. We would not be training right now for my 10 day Philmont trek next summer. My son at 13, has more outdoor skills than most Americans today. In the three years we've been in scouting, we have almost 100 nights camping. He has as much at 13 as I did at 39. I talk to scouts and ask them why they are scouts. The answer is always the camping, not the other aspects. Think about the stereotypical Boy Scout. Self sufficient, independent, able to take care of himself, always prepared. Those come from camping, not meetings. If anything, I think the decline of scouts is due to a de-emphasis on outdoor adventure and an emphasis on social conservatism and leadership. Most boys just ain't interested in that. Good on ya Brian, keep the ideas coming.

The supplex pants alone will be cold in the winter. I've always worn fleece pants under my supplex for winter trips. Works real good, much better than cotton. However, you have a good point about campfires. They will not respond well to that.