GernBlansten

Gary, I'm confused. The 3 night limitation on camping and keeping 11 year olds separate from the rest of troop activities is your own adaptation to the program and not a directive from the church?

But Gary, you stated you used material (pamphlets) from the LDS church to run your 11 year old program. That indicates to us that you followed the teachings of how to deliver the BSA program under the LDS church and that it wasn't something you did on the fly.

My only complaint with the LDS implementation of the BSA program is their insistence that they do not modify the program for their needs. That the LDS program mirrors others, just with a few tweaks. It doesn't. It is dramatically different. Not better, not worse, but different. Their claim it is, bugs me and plenty of my peers.

On #5, of the 3 WBadgers in my unit, 2 do not display it. The 3rd on the other hand, fits it to a tee.

Bordering on uppity, eh Pack?

People demanding equal rights is very---extremely--- egregious?

I guess the real difference is parlor scouting vs. field scouting.

I think you nailed it Beavah. It isn't the 3 night limit for 11 year olds that gets me, heck you are right, some boys just aren't ready for 30 nights at 11, much less summer camp. Its how you can squeeze T-2-1 into the 3 nights under the stars. We adopted the 1st Class/1 year initiative BSA promoted a few years ago. We decided it wasn't get your scouts to 1st class in one year, it was provide them with the opportunities to get it 1 year. I'd say 10-15% make it. No shame if you don't. The rest who stay with the program for another year and most have it by their 2nd anniversary.

Our unit utilizes the new scout patrols with older scouts as guides. We draw from 3 or 4 packs and they cross over anywhere from late Feb to early May. We can have up to three NSPs depending on the recruitment. All are 10-11 year olds, 5th graders. Our troop camps at least once every month for two nights (Friday night/Saturday night). The primary focus on the NSP is to prepare the boys for camping and their first campout is mid-May. At that campout, they work primarily on Tenderfoot advancement and get used to being boy led and away from their parents. Summer camp is mid-June and most every NSP scout attends for the entire week. Our camp has a Trail to First Class program and most attend that and take a few extra merit badges. Coming out of summer camp, the new scout usually has 8 nights camping under his belt. After summer camp, the new scouts are integrated into the existing patrols. July we do a 4 day rafting, caving and biking trip (car camping at a commercial campground). August is a two night campout of backpacking/hiking. So by the end of summer, a typical 11 year old will have 13 nights camping. Sept is District Camporee. October is fishing/backpacking. November and December are various patrol campouts depending on weather and youth interest. January is the winter Camporee, Feb brings us a snow/ski trip (sometimes in a church, so we can't count that) and March is usually shooting camp at the council camp. April is a campout for the older scouts to prepare for the May NSP campout. So from crossover, a new scout has the opportunity to camp 30 nights with the troop in his first year. His second year is about the same, although his role is different. The third year, the scout is old enough to take part in the high adventure trips that are going on every year independant of the troop calendar. Those require even more camping and prep trips in addition to the regular troop activities. Amazingly, very few of our scouts reach 1st Class by the end of their first year. They certainly have the opportunity to do so, but some don't come to every campout, others just don't finish up the requirements. We don't push advancement, but make opportunities for them to advance. My son was gung ho. He did the 30 nights the first year, made 1st class, elected to OA and did his Ordeal at summer camp his 2nd year. By his 4 year, he had over 100 nights camping. Tell you the truth, we quit recording after he earned his camping merit badge. He did three summer camps with the troop, NYLT as a participant and NYLT the next year as staff. 30 nights right there. He did 2 8 day NTiers treks, 1 12 day Philmont and 1 10 day Sea base. So that's 37 more just in high adventures. Participated in OKPIK twice and staffed it twice. In a survival situation, I'd put him up against Bear Grylls anyday From my frame of reference, our program is the epitome of what a BSA troop should be. I'm not saying our troop has a better program for first year scouts than the LDS does. All I'm saying is that they are worlds apart, the topic of this thread.

My only issue with that Gary is that it seems you want the best of both worlds. A first year scout who earns the first three ranks of boy scouting, yet is still treated as a Webelos.

The 11 year old program looks to me like a webelos 3 program more than a traditional 1st year scout program. But than is the beauty of the BSA program. COs can modify it to their needs.

Thanks Gary. That is enlightening. I assume from your reference to the handbook, its the LDS handbook on scouting. Almost seems like a compromise though. BSA requires camping to achieve 1st Class and that conflicts with the LDS philosophy of keeping 11 year olds at home with their families. So the 3 night limit allows a minimum camping to meet the BSA requirements (many would say its not enough). Does the three night limit exclude summer camp or are 11 year olds not allowed to attend?

Gary, I really don't mean to be a pest, but could you shed some light on why the LDS church restricts first year scouts to only three nights camping? There has to be some rationale to it.

Beavah, One of the most impressive things that the LDS church has done with scouting is to apply a consistent application of the BSA program to all of their wards. No other religious CO has been able to do that. So this "informal document that apparently was put together by one stake in Utah" that pretty much aligns with my observations in LDS units in Colorado and others in Arizona, is probably a pretty good view into the alterations of the BSA program to meet LDS goals.

Perhaps you can tell me Beavah. You seem to be able to divine my intentions. What was my first thought? And while you are at it, what am I thinking right now?

Well Beavah, its clearly about my biases. Silly.

It Seems to fit that those of us with a bias should just refrain from posting. Does this bias make my butt look big?

I'd certainly like to know how limiting a first year scout to 3 campouts keeps the OUTING in SCOUTING.

I thought that the point of the saying was the misuse of something designed for illumination. I thought religion fit better than statistics. But I guess I'm biased. Carry on.

How does that expose my biases?

I know several who use religion like a lamp post. As a crutch, not enlightenment.

I can't get my head around what the possible benefit would be to limit a new scout's camping to 3 nights a year?

My son as an 11 year old scout, camped over 30 nights. Had a ball. Did things his non-scouting friends even dreamed of. That alone segregates LDS scouting from the rest of us!

Same could be said for religion.

So is the priesthood no longer a prerequisite for being an SPL in an LDS unit? If not, when did that change?