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Troops that camp every month often complain about the poor attendance at these activities. They should realize that one of the reasons of the poor attendance could very well be that there is too much camping. I know troops whose meetings consist of nothing that cleaning up from one campout, planning the menu and packing for the next campout. >(OO)< I don't know why this never dawned on me. The only way a patrol could go on a patrol campout would be to squeeze in a second one in a month. We were frustrated by low turn out, 20-25% at about half the campouts but instead of cutting back on the camping trip we started splitting them, with a base camp and a backpacking trip. This resulted in 15 different troop camping activities this year for 34 nights (3 long term camps, one scout that crossed over in March that has 21 nights in already). This doesn't count the trips to go work on Eagle projects (4 more nights) or OA events (5 nights) or our APC (2 nights) or the older scouts who went to NYLT or staffed summer camps. It's not that they don't want to camp, they are just burned out! Stupid, stupid stupid. Thank you. Thinking back to my idealized youth, we would go to one long term camp, Spring and Fall Camporees (why we do two of those I've never understood), a canoe trip, a snow camp, and maybe two more. We would do other things the rest of the time, generally as patrols with no adults.APC should be interesting this year.

evmori: Adding the days and night required for Tenderfoot, Second class and first Class together. There are only three night total since joing Gotta disagree. The requirements can be met concurrently. The Second and First Class requirements expressly say "Since joining" not "Since your last rank" or "In addition to". So the night for Tenderfoot is one of the nights for Second Class and the two nights for Second Class are two of the nights for First Class.

I do not understand you sudden condescending attitude using phrases such as "until the Master gives us the answers" YOU asked for the quiz remember? You aske for the quiz and then you insult me for posting it when you do not like the results. That is hardly hardly courteous. If I knew that was your intention I would not have met your request. I missed this yesterday. I apologize, referring to you as "the Master" was not intended to be condescending or disrespectful. You have clearly been in the role of a teacher in this, and "the Master" was a failed attempt at humor. I explained that all the answers are in the BSA resources. You don't need anyone to give you answers, your are free to learn the program on your own simply by reading the answers in the BSA literature. Which is what I have done, although I've not been able to get to Council to purchase a copy of the ACPP, most of the important bits are out there. I think the hardest to find was who is responsible for the summer camp merit badge program and training unit leaders regarding the BSA advancement program. The scout must provide the names and contact information for 6 references if he is employed, 5 if he is not. Parent/guardian Educational Religious Employer 2 others As long as it is understood that the parent/guardian may also be the Educational (home schooled) and Religious (not affiliated with a religious group) references. I do wish the Handbook mentioned the 2 others. Since the handbook doesn't they could be interpreted as being "elective" references. Can a youth identify himself as a Boy Scout when seeking donations for an Eagle Project? This is already giving me headaches. I got a call from our former CC late last night telling me that in Arizona it is illegal to solicit funds for an organization that you are not a member of and that doing it through the Boy Scouts is how we get around it. I told her I would check with council today, I just have to figure out who at council I need to talk with. Searching the Arizona Revised Statutes, this is not true, the person just needs written permission to do it from the organization. Anyway. Thank you again for doing this.

Let's see if I can fix a few of my prior answers, here are the nine I believe I missed. Who sits on a board of review for the ranks or Tenderfoot through First Class? 3-6 unit (troop or team) committee members. Unit leaders, assistant unit leaders, relatives, or guardians are excluded from serving on the board. Except for merit badges who can sign a scout's advancement requirements? The Scoutmaster or a person that the Scoutmaster delegates. Can a scout sign his own handbook? Only if the Scoutmaster gives the scout this authority. How many elective merit badges must a scout complete to earn the Star Rank? The requirement states: "Earn 6 merit badges, including 4 from the required list for Eagle." There is no mention of elective merit badges. I don't find a "elective merit badge" defined in the requirements. Six Eagle required merit badges include 4. Based on the handbook and requirements as written the answer is zero. For which merit badge can a scoutmaster automatically counsel because he is a Scoutmaster? There are none, a Scoutmaster is not automatically a merit badge counselor. Who is responsible for training unit leaders about the BSA advancement program? The district or council advancement committee. Who is responsible for the merit badge program at a local summer camp? "The procedures for advancement in summer camp are established by the council advancement committee in cooperation with the committee responsible for summer camp, the camp director, and the program director." So all four entities have responsibility, but ultimately the council advancement committee. How many personal references must a scout supply on his Eagle Application? The requirements state: "List the names of individuals who know you personally and would be willing to provide a recommendation on your behalf, including parents/guardians, religious, educational, and employer references." The application states: "List the names of individuals who know you personally and would be willing to provide a recommendation on your behalf". And then provides spaces for: "Parents/guardians, Religious; Educational; Employer (if any); and Two other references". So, while every scout has a parent/guardian but that parent/guardian could also be the religious and educational references and the employer reference would only apply if one exists, the minimum number that must be supplied is one. How many references must the scout obtain for the Eagle board of review? None, it is the council advancement committee's or its designee's responsibility to obtain the references. (This message has been edited by jet526)

That's ok because you also had an another anwer incorrect and I wasn't going to mention it till the answers were posted, so you are correct you only had 52% correct and not 61% my apologies for the miscount. Oh, well. Getting things wrong is how you learn.

I would agree jet526, but consider who asked the question, we need to parse as much as possible! After all, there is no COR, just a CR! LOL! BTW, I've been biting my tongue about there being 18 questions, there are nineteen. I think I've identified most of the ones I got wrong but I'm waiting. But we both answered the same on this one: Who sits on a board of review for the ranks or Tenderfoot through First Class? Members of the unit committee. On reflection it probably needs to be more specific: After a Scout has completed all requirements for Tenderfoot, Second Class, First Class, Star, and Life ranks, or an Eagle Palm, he appears before a board of review. This board of review is made up of at least three and not more than six members of the troop committee. One member serves as chairman, usually the committee member responsible for advancement. Unit leaders, assistant unit leaders, relatives, or guardians may not serve as members of a Scout's board of review. That he limited the question to Tenderfoot through First Class excludes the possibility of this being a Venturing Crew.

I can tell you from experience, don't send your uniform to the dry cleaners the day before the District Awards Dinner, because you will get your uniform back in one bag, and your patches in another! So did it take the hard and crusty out of the shirt? The website says it does.

If the scouts are going to the ASM's house for the conference, how do you avoid 1 on 1 situations? JUst wondering, do they have to bring a buddy or a parent? The parent may stay (you cannot exclude a parent from a scouting activity, if they want to tag along to their son's ordeal you have to allow them). I always invite the parent to stay but they rarely accept. If the spouse of the ASM is a registered leader then you are still covered. On occasion, another leader will come over as the second adult.

What knots are required for a scout earn First Class Rank? square knot, two half hitches, taut-line hitch, timber hitch, clove hitch, bowline. The only knots are the square & bowline the rest are hitches. Knots, something we can discuss (argue) until the Master gives us the answers. Knot is any of various fastenings formed by looping and tying a rope (or cord) upon itself, to another rope or to another object. All hitches are knots. CalicoPenn's thought that lashings are knots is interesting. I think of knots as having a standing end, but it is not part of the definition. Based on this, we should extend the list of required knots to include whipping. The requirements do not state what type of whipping should be used, but they would need to know at least one

Well, I met with the CR and senior ASM(for lack of an better title) today. They say that no one has been able to succeed at having the scouts learn the stuff without retesting at the SMC, but that if I can get the program to the point where this is happening then they are willing to stop the retesting. Fair enough. Next the ASMs.

uz2bnowl, The scout is what he is. Some scouts are not everything you want. I did an Eagle SMC tonight with a scout that turns 18 in November. He has been on one "campout" in the last three years, it was a overnighter in a cabin for a snowboarding trip. He hasn't been in a tent since May of 2005, and only has 31 days of camping total. He has been a source of disappointment for my idea of what a scout is supposed to be for two years now. But, if he had finished in 2006 none of this would be bothering me. And it would not be bothering your SM either. Think of it this way, should you make it a requirement that every 15 year old scout wanting to earn his Eagle be forced to wait until he is 18-1 week and stay fully active for that time before you will allow him his Eagle? Of course not, that would be grossly unreasonable. But that is essentially what we do with these last minute Eagles when we try to withhold it because he wasn't as active as we would like. I did another SMC last week. This scout has over 110 nights camping. Was my SPL for a year. Has 36 Merit Badges and was made Vigil this Spring. But in all honesty I can't say that this one is a better scout than the other, just a different scout and I am just as proud of both of them. He has done what is required, let him have his Eagle.

Well, I'm sure BW will give the "right" answers after he lets this thread brew for a while. Good on him. Yes, The problem is I'm an INTP. I am right within the scope of my knowledge...when I find out I am wrong then I have a compulsion to expand my knowledge until I'm right again. It's a curse. I think some of the answers you (and I) got wrong will be nits having to do with the wording of the question. Like, "What knots are required for a scout earn First Class Rank?". A scout already knows the square know so it is not required to earn T-2-1. The same would be true for a scout earning Eagle.

Jet526 You have 11 correct out of 18 for a 61% Great. Now I get to spend the day rereading the Handbook and I'll have to make a special trip down to Council to get a copy of the ACPP instead of letting it wait until the next time I'm down there. I don't know why I do this to myself, I knew this was going to happen....

"Who is responsible for training unit leaders about the BSA advancement program? I'm thinking the advancement chair, but I'm probably wrong. " This is the only one I disagree with. I think its the CC. I also though it could be the Scoutmaster. The irksome thing on this one is that the back of my brain recalls reading about this on not long ago but it will not yield the answer. Can't wait to see BW pick you (and me) apart! I hear you. There were a few that I was thinking, "This is the answer, I know it is. But it can't be right or why ask it."

In theory dry cleaning will remove it, but I've seen no proof. Goo Gone doesn't even touch it.

Well here I go. I don't have a copy of the ACPP so I just had to make do. Please be gentle. What is the first Rank in Boy Scouts? Tenderfoot. Scout is not a rank, is is just what scouts are. What knots are required for a scout to earn First Class Rank? Square knot, two half hitches, taut-line hitch, clove hitch, clove hitch, timber hitch and the bowline. What knots are required for a scout to earn Eagle? Same as First Class. What is the minimum days and nights of camping that a scout needs to earn First Class?3 How many total days and nights of camping does a scout need to progress from Scout to Eagle Scout? 20 How long does a scout have to finish a partial merit badge? Until his 18th birthday. Can a parent be a merit badge counselor for their son? Yes True of false...A unit may set an attendance or participation measurement to determine if a scout is "active" in the unit? False. If a scout is not participating they may be dropped, or not registered at recharter, but as long as they are registered they are considered active. True or false...A unit can set an attendance or participation measurement to determine Scout Spirit? False. Scout Spirit is based on how they live their daily life outside of scouting. Who sits on a board of review for the ranks or Tenderfoot through First Class? Unit committee members. Except for merit badges who can sign a scout's advancement requirements? According to the Scoutmaster's Handbook it is any leader and any scout that has earned the rank the scout is working on. Some requirements can be signed by anyone as they do not require testing. Can a scout sign his own handbook? I think not, except for the requirements that do not require testing. I can't find anything that expressly allows them to sign their own handbook. How many elective merit badges must a scout complete to earn the Star Rank? 2, although the elective MBs could be Eagle required as well. Can a youth identify himself as a Boy Scout when seeking donations for an Eagle Project? I thought they could but the answer is no. I don't like it, but the answer is clearly no. For which merit badge can a scoutmaster automatically counsel because he is a Scoutmaster? None. Also, if a merit badge counselor is a unit position (and I cannot find were it is stated one way or the other) the a Scoutmaster cannot be a merit badge counselor at all. I've never heard of such a thing, I have mixed feelings about being wrong on this one. My wife won't let me be a merit badge counselor anyway. Who is responsible for training unit leaders about the BSA advancement program? I'm thinking the advancement chair, but I'm probably wrong. Who is responsible for the merit badge program at a local summer camp? The camp director How many personal references must a scout supply on his Eagle Application? Of the six requested, the one from the employer is expressly optional if the scout has not had an employer. The letter from the religious leader can be replaced by a letter of affirmation from the scout if they do not have a religious leader, the parent serves as the reference. So only four reference letters are required but there are five references. How many references must the scout obtain for the Eagle board of review? I think five but would not be surprised if it is none. This could make for some interesting discussion at the ASM meeting on Tuesday. (This message has been edited by jet526)

Thank you BW. I'm going to try this first without looking. Then again after trying to find it all. Some I may need to think about.

One time on this forum I posted a list of questions given to about 40 district and council advancement committee volunteers at a Philmont Training Conference. Every question was on the Boy Scout advancement program and every answer was found in either the Boy Scout Hanbook or the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures Manual and the best score anyone got was 40%. None of them even knew how many ranks there were in Boy Scouts. Okay, now I really am curious. How far back do I need to search for this thread? Do you have any keywords that will help narrow the search. Not that I would do well, I'm sure I won't, the Boy Scout Leader Assessment Tool tells me that. But it is nice to know how much I don't know. I'd have to say just the six on page 14 of the Handbook. Scout is not a rank and Eagle is the highest, which makes six.(This message has been edited by jet526)

I am confused. What CORs? COR is the commonly used but incorrect code for CR or Charter Organization Representative of which each charter organization has only 1. Okay CR, I didn't know there was an official code, or at least what it was. The registered CR goes back in this position for many years. We've changed CO since he started, and he has continued in that position. But he is not a member of the CO, best that I can figure is that when we changed they just didn't change his title, I've no idea why. Think of him as "Lem". He mostly works with the OA but he still provides guidance to the troop. He is the one I've not discussed the SMC issues with. The adult that is a member of the CO and who is the one in contact with the IH and functions as the CR is registered as an ASM, again, I don't know why. He is the one who does our SMC training. He understands my issues and is coming around, but slowly. My guess is what it will take is being confident that the scouts are learning the skills. He came to the last half of our Trail to First Class camp so he knows that at least the new scouts really are learning it. That will make it easier.

BW, I'll be meeting with the CORs. Believe it or not, this isn't my biggest frustration. It is just the biggest I feel comfortable discussing and I really am wishing I had choosen a different username.

John-in-KC, I'll have better luck with the CORs. The CC was the last SM for 3.5 years, so "saying we are doing this wrong" is saying "you did this wrong".

EagleDad: Thanks. That may help. I think I need to meet with my CORs first. If they are not in agreement then this would just be an unneeded disruption. My son will finish his eagle next month and has already decided that he is going to transfer to a crew. At that point if the CORs is unwilling to make the changes I'll just submit my resignation and go find a pack in need of a Cubmaster (the most fun job in all of scouting). But if the CORs back me then this meeting would be the next thing to do. One COR may but even be aware of the issue. He doesn't come to ASM meetings and I don't recall talking with him about it. There is another old committee member I need to speak with as well. IIRC he is on one of the national committees and that couldn't hurt.

OGE--I love doing SMCs. In June we had a week long trail to First Class camp. Towards the end of the week we had some scouts who were ready for their Tenderfoot (and some 2nd Class would had been in the troop for a year or two) conferences. It was a blast. If I can make it so that I can do them at meetings and camp out I'll do it in a heart beat. I've even considered just having them with scouts and then asking them to hand me their Handbook and signing them off and tell them to go down the hall for their BOR (The Committee would have a conniption). Are there any leaders who share your thoughts? Anyone who can help you in the change process? Your Unit Commissioner? ANother Scoutmaster that is respected? Not the UC. Don't even know who he is. Met one a couple of years ago and never heard from him again. Possibly three scoutmaster's ago. I've not talked with him about the issues, but he would certainly be listened to. The younger ASM/committee members share my thoughts...mostly because they've been to training. To some extent there is a "you have to prove yourself" attitude with the other adults that is not there with the younger ones.

It seems the unit you serve measures its program effectiveness by its ability to crank out Eagle Scouts. We certainly do that. On average a scout advances about one rank every year. How many scouts do you have currently registered in the troop? We have 60 at the moment. We had a couple of bad recruiting years a few years back, but we generally get about 15 new scouts each year. With some changes we made this year most will make 1st Class in the first year so that is 60 there. One rank a year after that makes another 30. Throw in Palm conferences and it is another 10. And if the CO does not want an actual Scouting program then why would you want to be the Scoutmaster there? It's a paper CO, and I just don't think the adults know any better. I think another year and most of the "this is the way we do things" committee members and ASMs will be gone (Their son's will be gone and I don't expect them to stick around). I'm slowly bringing the CORs around, we have two--it's complicated. Maybe it won't take a year. OTOH, I just did a SMC with an Eagle candidate and the CC wouldn't sign off on the application until he added more pictures to the project (okay, it was a bit weak with only 3 pictures).

Managing the advancement program is your responsibility as Scoutmaster jet526 and not the ASM's, CC's or CR's. You need to do what you know is right for the scouts and the program. Knowing where I need to be and knowing how to get there are different things. That is my problem. Other than to keep preaching and slowly implementing not not sure what else I can do.