Gary_Miller

I don't want to know of any problems outside medical issues, which should be on the medical form. I want the boy and me to start off fresh on equal ground. That way I can form my own relationship with the young man. While there may have been some problems in the last unit. The problems could of been personality problems with others in the unit both youth and adults. It better for all involved if we just start fresh and work on what ever problems come up when they come up.

jet526, "Committee meetings should go like this: SM: The scouts want to do X, Y and Z. Meeting: Find ways for the scouts to make X, Y and Z happen. Then I wake up." A good committee does an experienced SM make.

I'll add one more rule. Committee members must attend monthly Round Table.

OGE, its not a council requirement it falls under the G2SS.

The material for separate Woodbadge courses are already out there are that needs done is to bring them out of the closest. At one time there was separate courses for Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts. The BS course was taught at council level and the CS course was taught at the region level The CS course and was titled "Cub Scout Trainer Wood Badge" and you had to be in a district position to attend. I don't believe it would need much if anything to make it an offering at the council level. Having attended both courses before they combined I don't think there is anyway one can get what I got out of the separate courses in one combined course. The programs are to different. There is also one other course I have yet heard mentioned in this tread for Venture leaders, Powder Horn. While I have not yet attended Powder Horn I have talked to several people who have as well as read some information for the course. It seems like a good course and would need little or no modification to be like wood badge with a ticket of goals to work on.

No camping is required to earn the AOL. LDS units do not allow scout sponsored overnight camping for boys under the age of eleven. They also only run a one year Webelos program and it works very well. I have never had a problem with boys obtaining the AOL. There is nothing in the outdoors man that requires camping as a den to obtain. It can all be done in a non camping environment or on a family campout. If the CM is requiring three campouts then he is adding to the requirements and that can't be done.

qwazse, "My personal preference is to pitch my tent up hill from the youth so I can see all clusters. My other chaperon sets up on the opposite side of the valley (if it's not more than 200 yards wide)." Two adults camping on opposite sides of the valley could be a possible YP problem. To much of a chance of an adult being able to be alone with a youth.

Here is my input. Other items that come up: 1. Working on someone's Eagle project - if the entire troop is invited, it can clearly be a troop activity. What if a Scout asks just a few of his friends to help out? Yes, If its a patrol. 2. PLC meeting. We do this once a month on a different night from our troop meeting. No, PLC is neither a troop or a patrol activity. Its a leadership planning meeting. 3. Working on a merit badge with a friend or two. No, unless it is planned as a patrol activity. 4. Court of Honor held on a regular troop meeting night. No this is considered a troop meeting not an activty. 5. Eagle Court of Honor held on a weekend. No this is a troop meeting. 6. Eagle Court of Honor held on a regular troop meeting night. No this is a troop meeting. 7. Troop meeting night, but it's an activity (troop hike, or waterfront activity) Yes. 8. TLT - basic training, 2 hours in a meeting room (could easily be a "troop meeting") 9. TLT - all day training in the outdoors No, this is a training seminar for the troop leadership. Its nether a troop or patrol activity. However, if it the whole troop or patrol was invited then I would say yes. 10. Taking a course (den leader training, or University of Scouting). Clearly a Scout activity, but is it a "troop/patrol activity"? No, this is usually done as an individual. However, if it the whole troop or patrol was invited then I would say yes. 11. Working on advancement. In a troop of 50, maybe five Scouts show up to work on the orienteering requirement on a Saturday. Invitation went to anyone who needed the requirement - so not really the entire troop nor to a particular patrol. Yes, since the invitation went out to everyone. 12. Camping with another troop. Yes, if its the whole troop or patrol involved, or the boy was duel registered with the other troop. 13. Camping with your family and you worked on requirements for most of the weekend. No. The Key is separate troop/patrol activity (Other than troop/patrol meetings).

skeptic,"For me, the real issue is the "extra" application. It "should be" an easy task to simply "add" an additional title or job to the "established" file. Then, the training verification would immediately be attached. JMHO" And just how do you think council gets the information as well as the signatures from the CO stating that a person belongs in that position.

Present them at a Pack Meeting just like you do the boys.

BartHumphries, "Four weeks is plenty of time, presuming that the boys did homework. Shoot, at the 100th anniversary campout locally recently, there were programs to take the boy from Tenderfoot to 1st Class in one long weekend (Fri-Sat-Sun). There are no time requirements for those ranks." Yea Right. What about the 10 separate troop/patrol activities, three of which have to be camping overnight. I guess you could do it if you camped every weekend went on 8 other activities during the week. But most leaders and boys have a life outside of scouting so not likely to happen without some stretching of the requirements. And in the end you would just have a boy who did stuff and not a 1st Class Scout. As for the rest of, BartHumphries, post looks as if he has a troop where the meetings are MB give aways and not troop meetings. To bad its the boys who suffer in the end.

Just because DCF cleared the mother of the incident does not mean that there was not some kind of abuse going on in the boys eyes at least. On the other hand it could be that the YM and his parents are just having teenager almost an adult arguments and while its not right it is normal for youth his age. And you can't cure normal. In ether case I don't think anything warrants not letting the YM proceed with his Advancement to Eagle.

Eagle92 is correct. As well as the fact that the person inputting the information in the computer for the new position/duel position should not have to take the time to look up in another data base to see if you took your training. Just give it to them and stop winning, makes it easier for everyone involved. Especially the council registrar.

Although its already been said it worth repeating. Talk to the council camp director and I'm sure things will work out ok. Do it now so there is time to work up a plan it there is not already one in place. We had a youth in a wheel chair and he went to camp every year. He had a riding lawn mower his dad fixed up by taking off the gas motor and putting in an electric motor worked fine around our camp. He may not of been able to always go the same why but he alway got to where he wanted to go. We also took him on a fifty miler into the Sawtooth wilderness area for a week. Dad fixed up a special saddle and we put him on a horse and away he went. YM is around 33 yrs old and still talks about that trip when I see him. Anything is possible if you but your heads together and come up with a plan. The place to start is with the camp director.

I suggest you find a boy Scout who collects patches and give them to him, or donate them to the local OA lodge to put in their next patch auction which they use as a fund raiser.

The point I was trying to make is that a YM who is holding a rank above 1st Class, Should be holding a POR, and if they are not holding a POR they should be working on an assigned leadership project. The point being they should be doing something to fulfill this requirement, and its the SMs duty to make sure the opportunity exists. while I agree that there are some who are better suited for one position over another. Part of holding a position is to learn while in the position. Some may do the job better than others, however you can never learn if you don't have the opportunity to try. That's why I feel the most important responsibility a SM has is to train and advise the leadership of the troop. acco40, "Effective for whom? I admit it, I don't like the practice of having DC den chief for his younger brothers den especially when the parent of the DC is the DL. Why not have your son serve as den chief for another den?" In my situation there was no younger brother, I used my boy as I wanted a DC to help in the den and there was no one else who would commit to being there every week. The boys who were in the den are now good friends with my boy and look up to him as an example of a good scout/youth.

acco40, "Mythbuster - please suggest the best way a Scoutmaster should convey to a parent that their son is not ready for a POR such as DC?" While I'm not mythbuster I would like to offer my thoughts on the subject of PORs. First, since when is it necessary for a boy to be ready for a POR? I don't believe there is such thing as being ready for a POR, nor should there be. The purpose of a scout being in a POR is for his personal growth not because he is qualified for the job. Its the SM number one responsibility to train and help the young-men in their positions, so there is learning not just doing going on. When it comes to DCs, as in this situation, the best person for the job is the one willing to do the job. In my previous position of WL, I found that using my own boy as the DC was much more effective than not having one at all, not to say how convent it was for both of us. How effective a DC is will be up to the DL and how they use the DC much more than the experience the DC may have in scouting. acco40, "Forget the fact that the Scout was not appointed to any POC by either me or the SPL. Hell hath no fury like a mother whose son is scorned?" As a District Advancement Chairman, my first questions would be. Why does a Star Scout not have a POR within the troop? There is no excuse for this. While I'm no fan of 13 yr old Eagle Scouts the fact is its possible for it to happen and the SM has not right doing anything that may hold a young-man back. When it comes to advancement its the SM responsibility to ensure the advancement requirements are met as they are written, and to make sure every YM has the opportunity to advance at the scouts own pace.

My guess is that the US Flag and the Church Flag are permanently displayed at the front of the chapel area. Therefore they are convenient to use and is the reason for the church flag bing used instead of the pack flag. My take is that it would be more appropriate to use the Pack Flag instead of the church flag, as the meeting is a meeting of the pack and not of the church. While it is possible to use all three flags for the flag ceremony for the ease of conducting the ceremony it would be more appropriate to just leave the church flag at its position at the front of the room and post the pack flag next to it.(This message has been edited by Gary_Miller)

It does not sound like they were lost, they had a GPS so know where they were, its more likely due to the sick boy and the possibility of running out of water they figured it would be better to get some help. They did the right thing they radioed for help, gave their coordinates and stayed put until help arrived. Good for them in recognizing when they were in trouble and using their resources to get help.

SMT224, What part of the Scout Law do you see is being violated here? I see more parts being violated if you send the boy packing. The parts like loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, and kind.

I use a pair of channel lock pliers they grip well, give me good control, and allow me to grip the edge of the lid so I can dump off the coals when done cooking.

Vicki, "Gary, the separate week is to accommodate the perceived need to avoid Saturday night activities." No need to avoid Saturday night activities. As long as those who choose to return home for their sabbath can leave at a reasonable time. With a three day woodbadge course, held on a F,S,& S, that may not work well. Vicki, "My understanding is that whether or not LDS members can participate in an activity that runs through Saturday and into Sunday is up to the church leadership." Special leadership OK is only if the troop needs to be gone on Sunday for some reason. For example they have to travel far to get to a resident camp and need to be there by say 8am Monday morning. In order to avoid having to travel on Sunday, they would need to travel on Saturday. Woodbadge, is an individual activity and would be up to the individual if they choose to attend on a Sunday, no leadership permission is necessary. However, most LDS members would probably choose to not attend if the course were to be on a Sunday. In my area our course is held on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday for everyone. Seems to work well.

Vicki,"For those of you in LDS units who mix with non-LDS units, do any issues arise concerning female leaders who camp (obviously leadership with the non-LDS units)?" Nope never been a problem. While the female leaders usually camp in the same vicinity of the other leaders, they always have their who accommodations (Tent), as it should be. They usually have their own toilet facility or a sign is posted when they are using the facilities. Vicki, "So far, we are experiencing the segregated phenomenon. We offered a separate week of NYLT for LDS and didn't have enough interest to hold the course. Same with Wood Badge (which we offer twice a year)." I don't understand the separate week? If they are going to come they will come. Having a separate week will do nothing to change this. I'm starting to see some awakening with co-ed venturing programs and the LDS venturing programs. Some YM in our area are joining a co-ed program as well because they want more than the church program is offering(its not the girls ether). Anyway one of the YM in my ward has done this. He drives 20 miles one way to meeting. The other night he received an award at the ward scout court of honor. His other crew (co-ed) came to the court of honor as well. When our Crew Advisor asked the other crew which Young Man was in charge one of the Young Ladies raised her hand,it was quite funny and an awakening to our advisor. Even better was when I learned latter that the Young Lady was also LDS, and the president of her Young Womens class at church.

While I think getting some kind of medical help is good advice. I also think one of the best things you can do in these type or situtations is just ignore the behavior when it happens. Just walk away without saying anything. When the boy learns that he won't get any attention at all, the behavior will go away. You also need to talk to dad and have him on the same program.

jet526, "But I contend that it is not as common nor as severe." I don't think is as common or severe in the LDS units as you make it out to be. jet526, "I know LDS leaders that admit to moments when they are just embarrassed by what is far more common than you seem willing to admit." I'm more willing to admit it than you think. I'm one of those leaders who have those embarrassing moments. And when one studies the why, one quickly comes to the knowledge that the problem lays with the people involved not following the program. jet526, "Do you really chalk up the LDS reputation to blind bigotry" In some cases yes. jet526, "and that there is no factual basis to it at all?" Oh there are facts about the people not running a proper program. I see it all the time, and those people are easy to spot at events and summer camps.