Gary_Miller

shortridge, "I think a significant part of the disconnect may be the additional level of jargon. Why are "boys" or "Scouts" called "YMs," for example? (No, seriously, that's a real question. I'm curious.) Ditto "wards" and "stakes." It can be confusing terminology to someone who doesn't live in an area with a substantial LDS population. Young Men. Young Men is just a term used when referring to male youth ages 12-19 years in age. The Young Mens program includes the Aaronic Priesthood Quorums and the Scouting program connected to that quorum. Together they make up the Young Mens program. Aaronic Priesthood. In the Church today, worthy male members may receive the Aaronic Priesthood beginning at age 12. These young men, typically ages 1217, receive many opportunities to participate in sacred priesthood ordinances and give service. As they worthily fulfill their duties, they act in the name of the Lord to help others receive the blessings of the gospel. Wards and Branches. Members of the Church are organized into congregations that meet together frequently for spiritual and social enrichment. Large congregations are called wards. Each ward is presided over by a bishop, assisted by two counselors. Small congregations are called branches. Each branch is presided over by a branch president, assisted by two counselors. A branch may be organized when at least two member families live in an area and one of the members is a worthy Melchizedek Priesthood holder or a worthy priest in the Aaronic Priesthood. A stake, mission, or district presidency organizes and supervises the branch. A branch can develop into a ward if it is located within a stake. Each ward or branch comprises a specific geographic area. Different organizations in the ward or branch contribute to the Lord's work: high priests groups; elders quorums; the Relief Society, for women ages 18 years and older; Aaronic Priesthood quorums, for young men ages 12 through 17; the Young Women program, for young women ages 12 through 17; Primary, for children ages 18 months to 11 years; and the Sunday School, for all Church members ages 12 and older. Each of these organizations fulfills important roles in teaching the gospel, giving service, and supporting parents in their sacred duty to help their children become converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ. These organizations also work together to help members share the gospel with others. Stakes, Missions, and Districts. Most geographic areas where the Church is organized are divided into stakes. The term stake comes from the prophet Isaiah, who prophesied that the latter-day Church would be like a tent, held secure by stakes (see Isaiah 33:20; 54:2). There are usually 5 to 12 wards and branches in a stake. Each stake is presided over by a stake president, assisted by two counselors. Stake presidents report to and receive direction from the Presidency of the Seventy or the Area Presidency. A mission is a unit of the Church that normally covers an area much larger than that covered by a stake. Each mission is presided over by a mission president, assisted by two counselors. Mission presidents are directly accountable to General Authorities. Just as a branch is a smaller version of a ward, a district is a smaller version of a stake. A district is organized when there are a sufficient number of branches located in an area, permitting easy communication and convenient travel to district meetings. A district president is called to preside over it, with the help of two counselors. The district president reports to the mission presidency. A district can develop into a stake. More information can be found at these sites. Aaronic Priesthood /Young Men http://lds.org/pa/display/0,17884,4645-1,00.html Index Topics about the LDS Church http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&vgnextoid=76bd3f7719605 Both of these sites are official LDS Church web sites.

JMHawkins, "ldsscouting.org seems like it's full of pretty good advice and steers readers towards a traditional BSA program. I have no idea how well it matches with what the typical practice is in an LDS ward (not being a member myself), but after skimming over the faq, I find myself hoping a lot of LDS adult leaders find that site." I have been farmilure with this site for years and as a LDS Scout Leader have found their information to well with in the church guidelines and the typical practice in an LDS scouting unit.

OldGreyEagle, "Sorry, but I feel like I just came in from another dimension. For as long as I can remember, I have been told that if the BSA was to accept Homosexaul leaders, or more properly put, if the BSA allowed Chartering Organizatoins to allow Homosexual Leaders than the LDS would pull out of scouting. Have I got this wrong? I thought that the LDS told the BSA that if it ever accepted gay leaders, then the LDS would drop scouting. Am I wrong on this? The loss of the LDS scouts always seems to be touted as the main reason the BSA won't consider allowing Chartering Organizations to allow gay leaders. Are you saying this is not so? Have we/I been wrong in our impressions?" What you have heard is personal opion from church membership. Some of which you may have heard form local leaders. I personaly feel the same way, although I don't know this for sure. I will say that as a long time member of the church, and a long time LDS scout leader. I have never heard any of the leadership at Church Headquarters in Salt Lake City Utah make this statement, and it is not official for the whole church if its does not come from Salt Lake as an official statement.

Eagle92, "If this sound like bashing, I'm sorry as that is not my intent. Hopefully you know this from our other conversations, both public and private." Pointing out differences or problems a person has seen in order to get clarification is not bashing. Eagle92, "I think the biggest problem is the lack of communication on both the LDS units' and districts' parts." I also think this is a problem. But I don't think its specifically an LDS problem as much as it is one of units not getting involved at the district level. If unit leaders never attend monthly round tables and monthly district meetings they will never get the information needed on district and council programs. And some leaders just don't think its important enough to attend. Eagle92 "For what ever reason the LDS units i am most familiar with really have nothing to do with the rest of the district, and this appears to be common in my neck of the woods." In my neck of the woods its just the opposite the non-lds units seem to have nothing to do with the rest of the district. Though in conversation with some of the non-LDS unit leaders it has to do with the attitude of some of the LDS units. This happened before I moved here, but I still see the problems. Eagle92, "I know that folks have tried and tried to get them involved, only to get frustrated at run around given as we are told that another person is in charge now, or never receiving return calls. So we've given up on trying to contact them." I understand the only thing I can recommend is to get with the Stake President (leader in charge of the Stake)and see if he can help you with the problem. Other than that a district e-mail letter maybe a solution. Thats what we do in our district.

jhankins, "Patrols and programs are supposed to be run in a textbook fashion like this: 11 year olds (Their own troop) 12-13 Boy Scouts 14-16 Varsity Scouts 16-18 Venturing" While everything, jhankins, say is true and I agree with, I just wanted to make one small correction. 11 year olds are not a troop of their own. They are a patrol under the Boy Scout Troop. However, they meet separately from the troop. This is because they are not part of an Aaronic Priesthood quorum until they turn 12. When I was an 11 year old scout leader, I had one of the older boys help out as a troop guide.

GernBlansten, "So is the priesthood no longer a prerequisite for being an SPL in an LDS unit? If not, when did that change?" As far as I know it has always been that way. I have both the last Scouting Handbook(1985) and the current handbook(1997)and they both allow for non-member boys to be SPLs as long as they meet the church worthiness standards in an interview with the IH(Bishop). However, I will say that its usually the YM who is the Quorum President(think Class President)called by the Bishop.

Well lets just not follow the BSA Safety manual because it does not fit in to what we want to do. Now thats being a responsible leader. I think the guidelines are very specific and they start on page 17 of G2SS. There are age requirements and there are camping opportunities requirements. And because they are all in bold print they are BSA rules and policies, not suggestions or guide lines. There are only two categories of Cub Scout overnighters. Council-Organized Family Camp. And Pack Overnighters. They both have specific rules and policies that MUST be followed. Tiger, Wolf and Bear Cub Scout dens is not approved for overnight camping. Moosetracker, to answer your question. Yes, BALOO must have been completed by at least one adult on a pack overnighter. With the exception of the Webelos Den, Dens are not allowed to overnight camp as a den, in any situation.

Training would serve a better purpose here than a "DL Report Card". I would suggest two things 1. At the Den Leaders monthly meeting have a short training time. One of the subjects could be about how reading the material from the book can be very boring, and where at times it maybe necessary if it is have one of the boys do the reading. 2. Invite the leader to monthly CS Round Table where they can learn how to do a good meeting from experienced leaders. Pick-up the leader and take them with you.

Having heard lots of miss information on how "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" uses the Boy Scout of America program. I thought it would be nice to have an area where it could all me cleared up or at least discussed. If this becomes a bashing of the LDS Church then the discussion at least on my part will end. My back ground. I have been a registered LDS scout leader since 1982. I have served in the CS, BS, VS, and VC programs. I been to both BS Woodbadge and CS Woodbadge. I have also worked with non-LDS units at the CC position. I been on district CS staff, Training staff, Camporee staff, and am currently the district advancement chairman. I have also done extensive training and self study on both the LDS Scouting Programs and the BSA programs. I'll start this by breaking down our friend BadenP post from the other tread with my reply. BadenP, "I was as DE for five years and over 25% of my units were LDS so I became VERY familiar with the way LDS do the boy scout program." Your provous posts show me that while you may have worked with LDS units you don't have even a little understanding on how LDS Units use the program. "You are naive to think that LDS Boy Scouts do not use the program to prepare their boys for missionary activity at 18." I would be naive of me to think that. Beacuse everything we do from the time a child is born is to teach them about Christ and his gospel. This includes using the young men (YM) program of the church to help YM prepare to serve a mission, marry, raise a family, and become leaders in their church and communities. The YM program is two fold the gospel teaching side is called the Aaronic Priesthood program and the activity side is call the Boy Scouts of America program. Together they make up the YM program for the church. BadenP, "It promotes the churches agenda and doctrine over the scouting skills." Not so the church uses the program together to help a YM grow into an outstanding citizen for his community. Scouting Skills are just as much a part of the YM program as Gospel teachings. BadenP, "The LDS do publish their own scouting handbooks, which they primarily use, as well as use the BSA's...." Your right the chuch do publish a small book call "Scouting Handbook" the current book is only 6 pages long and is mostly guidelines for church leaders to understand how to set up a scouting program in the church. It covers the selection of leaders, committee members, church specific instructions, and how the BSA program works within the Primary (2-11 children's program much like a Sunday school in other religions) and the YM program. When it comes to the BSA programs the primary material is the BSA literature. BadenP,"I have had high ranking LDS church officials tell me what they view as the overall goal they see the BSA program in preparing their boys." I won't disagree that the overall goal is to prepare the YM to be good Youth, Missionaries, Husbands, Fathers, Community members, and just all around good people. With the exception of maybe missionaries that no different than any-other organization tht charters a scouting program. BadenP,"their BSA program is not the same as the average boy scout troop" I disagree a properly ran LDS scouting program is exactly the same as the average properly ran BSA program. BadenP, "which the BSA has made an allowance for" No different than any other CO. BadenP, "and most non LDS boys would have a difficult time fitting into an LDS troop." Not so I have had many non LDS YM in my LDS scouting programs and they fit in just fine. BadenP, "So rant all you want but I will take my experiences and what I was told by LDS officials over your opinion." I'm not ranting. I just think what you have experienced and what you have been told may not have been what is really suppose to be happening in a properly ran LDS BSA program. Pay close attention to the words "suppose to" and "properly ran".

In my 27+ years as a scout leader I have yet to have a boy not be able to do at least one pull-up after the 30 days practice. It was one of the things the patrol worked on together during the patrol time of the troop meeting. Coat rack poles make good pull-up stations for 11 year old scouts.

perdidochas,"Therefore, this isn't a 2010 problem. The standards were created in 1985." So maybe because we are a fatter and less active society now, than we was in 1985, we should change the standards to make the goal more achievable. I THINK NOT. It won't hurt a young scout to do his best and then show improvement. If your best at a pull-up is zero then improvement is one more than zero. Not a bent elbow, or a 1/2 of one, it one complete pull-up. If the boy chooses not to practice to achieve the goal of improvement then the boy chooses not to earn the Tenderfoot Badge. Its all about choosing to do what is required and earning the badge, or choosing not to do what is required and choosing not to earn the badge.

BadenP, "The LDS can still have their own version of scouting, but everyone elses units would and should be open to all." Funny I did not know the LDS units had their own version of scouting. Last I looked they used the same BSA written material as everyone else, and their units were open to everyone. BadenP, "In that case then we would have to have separate scout programs for each faith tradition sponsoring a scout unit, like the LDS, and that is when scouting becomes a religious program first and foremost and the scouting program of Baden Powell becomes of secondary importance." Funny I did not know the LDS units had "separate Scout programs" from what BSA as implemented. BadenP, you really need to do your homework when it comes to how the LDS Church uses the programs of the Boy Scouts of America.

The RIGHT is the place of honor. That is the fundamental rule governing the location of the national flag in all situations when it flies from a staff. I like to call it and teach it as the US Flag always being on its own right. If displayed at the front of the room in front of an audience its on the right of the room, or speaker, the flags own right. While being carried its on its own right when being carried in. For example if you are bringing the flags in to the room from the back the US Flag should be up from the the right of the room and you cross over in front of the other flag. Or if coming up the center with another flag its on the right. BSA has a great pamphlet titled "Your Flag" which has everything you ever needed to know about the flag, including how it should be displayed. The playing of Taps during the retiring of the colors is a great idea for a veterans day assembly. Recorded music would be OK. However like,clemlaw, suggested a live bugle or a trumpet would have a much better effect. The bugler should be at the back of the room so as not to take the attention of of the flag.(This message has been edited by Gary_Miller)

The requirement is really quite simple. 10a: Record your best, your best could be ZERO. 10B: After practicing 30 days later show improvement. Improvement in this example would be ONE, not trying. I have yet to see any boy who really tried (practiced for 30 days) not do at least one pull-up, of course if they have a physical handicap thats a different story. Obesity is not a handicap. In my group of boys this is one of the first things we did. Then every meeting we took the test (practice) again. In 30 days we recorded the results in most cases everyone passed. If these boys have been active in the troop then all the other requirements for Tenderfoot, 2nd Class, and 1st class should be completed and once improvement in a pull-up is completed the scouts will be 1st class scouts.

TNScoutTroop"Another possibility to consider would be that, if the LDS left the BSA, they might employ legal and political means to 'break' the BSA monopoly on Scouting, and to create a Scout organization that explicitly (rather than somewhat stealthily) allowed CO's to define the religious and ethical content of the troop. They'd need to find a partner, say the Southern Baptist Convention, to convince others that they were establishing a Scout organization open to all orthodox Judeo-Christian denominations, rather than a stealth Mormon organization. But, if they found such a partner, the results could be catastrophic for the BSA." If the LDS Church decided to break from scouting I don't think there would be "any legal and political means to 'break' the BSA monopoly on Scouting". The LDS Church uses scouting as its activity arm for its young men and it has for the last 98yrs. They choose BSA after careful scrutiny and observation because of the values it offers the young men. Its my opion if something happened where the LDS Church decided to leave scouting it would just start its own program within the church that had the same type values as BSA currently has. There would be no need to for partners nor would it have to be stealthy or would it need to call it scouting. The LDS Church has many strong and smart individuals who could put a program together within months that would provide an activity program with values that the church wants for its Young men and boys, with or without awards. They already have such programs for their girls and young women.

I don't think the argument has as much to do with openly gay individuals possibly molesting young boys and men, as we think. I think it has more to do with morals and values that BSA and most of its charter Organizations stand for and want taught to young people. A openly gay individual believes that being gay is not only natural but its an appropriate life style. Most of BSA's Charter Organizations don't believe this way. As a parent I do not want my children taught that being gay is natural and therefore an appropriate life style. As I don't believe that being gay is natural, in fact I believe it defies all of nature.

GernBlansten "The rights of the minority should never be decided by the majority." Your right "Men are endowed by their creator with certian unalienable rights, among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." These rights are granted to everyone, and constitional provisions have been made in order to protect the rights of the minority from the will of the majority. And while unanimity in making decissions would ideal, majority rule becomes a necessity. "When any number of men have.....consented to make one community or government, they are thereby presently incorporated, and make one body politc, wherein the majority have a right to act and conclude [bind] the rest...." (John Locke) With out majority rule nothing would ever get done. The BSA being one community has the right to make its own rules for membership and what type of individules they want within there organization. Being a member or a leader in the Boy Scouts of America is not a right. One must met the standards put forth by the organization.

You would see a decrease in membership and unit numbers I think so drastically that BSA would not have the funding needed to operate as it now does, even if those buisness not giving started giving again. If the local option (as some of you call it) was instated gay activist groups would just move to the next level the CO, with the same arguments about discrimination. The gay right issue is not about rights at all, as they have all the individual rights afforded to individuals by the constitution. Its about a group of people trying to justify and convince society that their unnatural sexually practices are natural. And in order to do that they need to be accepted in to all aspects of society including private organizations. However, in order to get into private organizations they have to do it by force, through the courts.

So now that you have learned what your boy and the other scouts are capable of doing don't just leave. You have learned the most important part of being a scout leader. That of trusting the boys to be able to get the job done, and while they may not do it our way they will do it. So I suggest you stick around serve as an ASM and enjoy the ride right along with your son, just stay out of the way and be there to help all the boys when asked. Scouting was the one thing that me and my youngest boy did and still do together. The closeness and friendship we now enjoy has been a real blessing to us both. We have even had people comment on how they envy us and our closeness. We have done allot of things together and have put in lots of miles traveling to scout functions, in which time we have had lots of discussions about life, politics, scouting, ect. My son is now 19 and believe it or not we get along great and he even asks me for help and advice. I will forever be thankful for my decision to take the time to do scouting with my boys. My own as well as all the other scouts I have worked with. They will always be my boys.

There is already a temporay patch for LDS church that can be worn on the uniform. Here is the web site to order them. http://ldsbsa.org/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=6&zenid=7bedcd4038b47dae439e3c64e4855948

When teaching hands on skills each and everyone of us use the EDGE method. Its just that we never break it down like in EDGE. Some of the steps are combined. But none are ever left out. For example, most of us combine the Explain and Demonstrate steps together. We explain what we are teaching at the same-time we demonstrate how its done. We may also use all the steps at the same time. The point is we all use the steps, and while some may not like the acronym for what ever reason, it an easy way for a Young Man to learn the steps needed in teaching a skill. If I had a young man come to me and tell me he taught someone how to tie a square knot using the EDGE method. I would say great now teach me as well. This way I'm not only letting the young man know he is trusted, I'm also testing him on what he learned. Which gives me a chance to emphasis anything which he may have missed.

I like EDGE and wish more adult scouters would follow the principles. You know EXPLAIN what a PLC is. DEMONSTRATE what should happen at a PLC. GUIDE the boys through a PLC. ENABLE the boys by turning the PLC over to them.

A boy lead, boy planned, boy ran program. Without it you can't get buy in from the boys and without boy buy in you will lose the older boys more quickly. Its all about the quality of the program.

Cub Scouts To get started Youth protection Fast start Read the handbooks ASAP This is Scouting Leader specific In order to do outdoor activities BALOO Hazardous Weather Health and Safety Training To stat proficient and become a better leader Roundtables Pow Wows/University of Scouting In order to be the best leader you can Any other supplemental training offered

I think sometimes to to the level we are working at we lose prospective. The further we are from actually working with the boys the more the easier it is to forget why we are actually involved. A personal example: I have always been for the boys. I've worked hard to make sure the boys needs come first. I bumped heads with lots of adults trying to ensure the boys are running the program. While I have over the years served several time at the unit level and district level mostly at the same time. I currently serving at the district level as the Advancement Chairman and I'm not involved at the unit level (not by choice, LDS scouter). I was complaining too my 19 yr son (OA Lodge Chief) about not getting any involvement from units on the district Advancement committee. And how coming up in February is the district MB pow-wow, and how I want the units involved in planning this event. I told my boy I was thinking about just canceling the event if I could not get any help from the units (adults). My son asked me one simple question that that got me to think I was losing prospective. He asked "Dad, what are you in the program for? Is it to help the boys or is it to get the dead beat leaders to do their responsibility? Who loses if you cancel the MB Pow-wow? Nothing like a Youth to knock the train back on track.