Gary_Miller

Beavah, the church has not directed any specific way of conducting an 11-yr-old program. The program I describe is how I ran the program. Though it may seem that advancement was my main goal I also tried to incorporate all the other methods and aims of scouting into the program. Overall I think I did a pretty good job at accomplishing the mission.

BDPT00, "Why should I not think this is double dipping (earning advancements in two programs at the same time)?" Because if you had read the posts before that you would have seen where I explained that the LDS ran their CS on the age program, and that Webelos was 10-yr-olds. And how if it was possible to obtain AOL in a year that the second year Webelos, in a grade ran CS program, was mostly a transition period into the BS program. I assumed people were familiar with the two different CS program options. We had also long before that established how the new scout patrol, 11-yr-olds, in the LDS program meet as a separate patrol away from the regular troop. So it was likened unto the second year Webelos program as a transition period into the regular troop program once the scout turned 12. Nothing was ever said about earning advancement in two programs at the same time, that would not be possible with the CS/BS. Although it would be possible in the BS/VS/VC programs.

BDPT00,"....how the kids are registered. If they're Webelos, they can't advance in Boy Scouts, and if they're Boy Scouts, it's too late to work on Arrow of Light. So what are they? Simple answer: LDS." The boys are registered as Webelos when they turn 10 yrs old. We run a one year Webelos program which is plenty of time to obtain A of L. At 11 yrs old they cross over and are registered as Boy Scouts and join the 11-yr-old patrol. Where the focus is on obtaining 1st class before they turn 12. Although most of the boys don't make 1st class within this year.

You can sure tell the difference from a women post and a mans post on this thread. The women want to stop the sticks altogether and the men say let it go its going to happen just set some safety rules. Boys have been playing with sticks and throwing rocks since the beginning of time. Its a rite of boyhood that can not and should not be taken away. Just need to set some controls so others don't get hurt.

I will admit that much of the meeting time was used working on advancement. When I was the 11yr old leader in ward I used the pamplet called "My Scout Advancement Trail, Tenderfoot to First Class". This pamplet has the requirements for T-1st broken down into 10 areas, Citizenship, Troop and Patrol, Knot Tying, Camping, Hiking, Nature, Cooking, First Aid, Swimming, and Physical Fitness. Its designed to keep track on individual advancement and also has and leather immediate recognition totem with leather thong to wear on ones belt. We patterned our meetings working one of the areas each month. The last meeting of the month I would test the boys on what was covered for the month. Some areas we would use two months as some of the other area don't require allot of time. I also had a troop guide (for me it was my son who was about two older) from the older boys helping out as well this scout did much of the teaching. The boys I worked with earned their advancement. I can guarantee that by the end of the month these boys know how to do the skill not just pass of the requirement. I would of put them up against many scouts older than them and they would have excelled. Of course I'm sure that is not the case with all 11yr patrols. My goal also was only to provide the opportunity to get 1st class in a year, many if not most still has something to do when they turned 12yr. Mostly a campout or some other activity that they missed.

The best SM minutes are the ones that get the boys to thinking. The crying is a good sign it means you got them to thinking.

BartHumphries, "Thanks, I'm looking up those activities in the G2SS now and no, it wasn't pointed out in the ASM/SM specific training that I went through." Sure it was it was under the section where the trainers talked about resources that are available to the leaders. Its up to you as a leader to get the material and read it. Its also a requirement for a tour permit. Leaders sign the permit stating they have a copy of G2SS with them and that they are familiar with it. Which means you have at the least review the contents.

Is there anything wrong with having the best of both worlds? After all if it possible for a Webelos to obtain Arrow of Light in one year isn't the second year just a transition period to the BS program. Why not have the same period of time to transition into the full troop program and be working on BS advancement at the same time. After all most troops place their new scouts into the new scout patrol for at least a year with the same goal of advancing to first class within that year. The only big difference would the number of camping experiences. Everything else is the same.

NJCubScouter,"Scoutbox, the issue is not "a few out there" or "those few who are against the BSA." The issue is the BSA's own policy. Many of those who think it should be changed (including me and a number of others in this forum) are not "out there" or "against the BSA" -- we are Scouters who think the policy is hurting the BSA and should be changed." No one has yet been able to logically explain how the policy on Gay Scout Leaders is hurting the BSA, as well as justified why it should be changed. How about you give it a shot? NJCubScouter, "I mean hurting the BSA because it's a policy that is contrary to the fundamental values of the BSA, despite what the current temporary leadership in Texas might think." What fundamental values of the BSA is the policy contrary to? NJCubScouter, "I'm FOR the BSA, so "for" it that, like many Scouters, I have stayed on after my son has moved on to college and other things, and have become even more involved. Since I'm "for" it, I want to see it improve." Improve how?

The case in organ had to do with abuse and not homosexuality.

GernBlansten, "The 11 year old program looks to me like a webelos 3 program more than a traditional 1st year scout program. But than is the beauty of the BSA program. COs can modify it to their needs." That would be one way to look at it. However since the LDS CS program runs on an age program 8 yr = Wolves, 9yr = Bear, 10yr + Webelos. It would be more like a Webelos 2 program using the Boy Scout program instead of the Webelos program.

Yes the official handbook from LDS HQ. From the handbook: "Eleven-year-old scouts may participate in a one-night camp three times each year. No other Scout-sponsored overnight camping should be planned for eleven-year-old Scouts. Each boy participating in an overnight outing should have learned and practiced the required skill before the camping experience." No long term summer camp. The stake usually puts on a day camp. They usually attend camporees during the day or it could be one of their allowed camps. And the other troop/patrol activities required would be day outing doing camping or other things as a patrol. When I was the eleven-year-old scout leader I never had any problem getting boy to first class as long as they attended all the campouts. Those that did not complete the camping requirements quickly did once they turned 12 and joined the main troop program. Though this may seem odd to some. But it really does works out well if there is a good plan put together.

raisinemright, "When our troop bought new tents, the committee set a new policy. No duffels or backpacks allowed in the tent. They were to be kept in the tent vestibule or outside under a rain cover or in a trash bag." Some committee just really don't know what their responsibilities really are. Oak Tree, "We found that larger tents tended to collect Scouts in them, kept them up longer, made more noise, and allowed for more secretive activities (what kind of card game are you playing in there?)" We sure would not like the boys to have us time, where they can bond, stay up all night tell stories and Jokes, make lots of noise, or just have some fun playing games. Its all a matter of knowing your YM and trusting them to make good choices on their own. (This message has been edited by Gary_Miller)(This message has been edited by Gary_Miller)

GernBlansten, "Gary, I really don't mean to be a pest, but could you shed some light on why the LDS church restricts first year scouts to only three nights camping? There has to be some rationale to it." I really don't know the rationale behind this. I can only guess that it has to do with the churches position of the younger boys not being away from the home at night. From the handbook: "Eleven-Year-old Scouts preferably meet in the daytime, but if evening meetings are necessary, arrangements should be made to ensure that these boys are not away from their homes late at night and that they are carefully supervised until they arrive home." The three camp rule is so the boy can full fill the camping requirement for T, 2nd, and 1st class. Under the old BSA program they was only allowed two camps in order to meet the requirements for the camping skill award.

Beavah,"Certainly I don't think Salt Lake has been all that great at developing a consistent application of the documents BadenP mentioned, or as he says the training numbers would be way up across da intermountain west." Church HQ in Salt Lake is not the problem, although the leadership at HQ recognizes there is a problem and in the last 6 years have held many training sessions tiring to get things working correctly. However, every ward is its own CO and every CO has its own volunteers and every volunteer has their free agency to do job correctly or not. LDS units are no diffrent than other units if the volunteer does not learn the job and then put what they learn into action the unit won't function properly and there will be a poor program. And the boys will suffer.

I don't know of any square feet requirement. I think its best to buy four man tents to house two boys. That way there is plenty of room to move around and to store gear.

BadenP, here is my reply I promised you. First of all as, Beavah, alluded to these materials are from a single stake in Utah. Who have tried to put together a hand book for leaders in their stake to help them build good scouting programs and to help those leaders see how the Aaronic Priesthood program and the BSA scouting programs go hand in hand in insuring a good overall balanced YM's program. This is not an official church publication, although I find it very well written in helping leaders in building and maintaining a well ran scouting program. My only wish is that every scout leader in the church would read through the material as there is no way they would have bad or mediocre programs if the used these guides. The reason it very little about the scout ranks is because the guides are written on how to set up and have a good program and not on advancement. I can only imagine what would be possible if a leader was to use this material as part of the leadership training programs. We would not even be having this discussion as well as other discussions on scouting and the LDS units if every LDS unit in the country read and put the material found on that site in to practice. District events, training programs, round tables excreta would be so full that most places would be looking for bigger rooms to meet in. District camporees would have so many participants that events would be ran well into the evening hours. But I digress all this would be in a perfect world were leaders (all Leaders LDS and non-LDS) really did strive to do their best and help the youth leadership to build good programs. Where committees really worked hard to ensure SM had the resources to do their job. Where tour permits and transportation just showed up at the scout shed on the morning of the campout ready to transport scouts. Instead of the SM having to make the arrangements. But no instead we are satisfied with mediocre ran programs where we do the bare minimum in order to be able to say we did something. Not realizing that the only people who suffer are the youth themselves who we so proudly profess to be serving. Well enough for now I have to get to work and go crawl under some horses so I can make some money.

BadenP, I have to go spend the night taking care of my bed ridden mother in law tonight so won't have time to look at the material you listed until tomorrow. But I promise I will take a look and get back to you.

I agree with ScoutNut.

shortridge,"You need three, clearly. But there are other requirements that go along with camping. By just allowing three campouts, the program does limit the number of boys that can earn First Class to six. Requirement 4(e) says that a Scout must cook breakfast, lunch and dinner that he planned. If you just spend six days camping, then only six boys can complete that requirement (and that's assuming the patrol camps for two full days)." You have to remember that the LDS Church uses the age method for CS and not Grade. Therefore, you have boys at different stages of advancement throughout a year. If the campouts are stage properly it works out really well. When I was the 11 yr old Scout leader. We did a campout in the spring another one during the summer and one in the fall. it worked out really well and enabled a boy to attend all three campouts throughout his year in the 11 yr old scout patrol. Just like other scouting units not every boy completed 1st class in one year. However, they were only a few requirement away, usually it was a campout. Eagle92,"Now in reference to only allowing 11years old to camp 3 times a year, why is that?" It's just the guidelines the church has established. I really don't know the reasoning behind the guideline. I can only guess its due to maturity and age, as well as a transition period to the regular troop and camping. But thats just my opion. GernBlansten, "That alone segregates LDS scouting from the rest of us!" I guess you could look at it that way. However, remember BSA guidelines allows a CO to a just the program for the youth they serve, as long as it does not take away or add to the program. using the program within the BSA. Limiting the number of campouts the new scout patrol can do is no different than a unit limiting the type of camping/activity the new scout patrol can do, because of experience.

Scoutfish,"Okay Gary...Was I even close?" Yes and No. BadenP,"Please don't quote me out of context as you did in your last post." I did not mean to quote you out of context. Please show me where and I will correct it. BadenP, "So to clear up some questions for me then," BadenP,"1)The main/primary purpose of the LDS scouting program is to prepare young men to achieve the Aaronic Priesthood?" No, worthy YM recieve the Aaronic Priesthood at the age of 12. From the LDS Scouting Handbook "In 1913, the church adopted Scouting a part of the activity program for Aaronic Priesthood quorums and later for Primary boys ages eight and older. By providing opportunities for boys and young men to put into practice the gospel lessons the learn in the home and at church, Scouting programs have been used to support the priesthood. The most widely accepted Scouting methods program is known throughout the world as the "Baden-Powell Movement," founded by Robert, Lord Baden-Powell, a retired British army general. Under priesthood leadership, Scouting can complement the purposes of the Aaronic Preisthood quorums and Primary classes in building testimonies in boys and young men. Scouting can help boys and young men love and serve the Savior and honor their parents. Priesthood leaders may wish to rely on the following quote by Baden-Powell as a measure of any Scouting Program's effectiveness. "Don"t let the technical outweigh the moral. Field efficiency, backwoodsmanship, camping, hiking, good works, Jamboree comradeship are all means, not the end. The end is character-character with a purpose" (Footsteps of the Founder, ed. Mario Sica [Milano: Editrice Ancora Milano, 1984}, 125 BadenP,"2)Incorporated into the troop meetings are rituals and rites that are not scouting but recognizing a boy reaching certain stages toward priesthood and are recognized as part of their scouting advancement?" No, there are not rituals and rites associated with LDS scouting that is not part of the BSA program. There are different stages of the priesthood in which a YM receives more authority to to preform different responsibilities within the church. But these are not recognized as part of their scouting advancement. BadenP,"3) An LDS scout can still achieve scout ranks without attending meetings or campouts IF they are doing work for the church and the goal of priesthood?" Not in any LDS scouting unit I have worked with and not within the churches BSA program. An LDS scout has to do all the requirements like any other scout as defined in the current advancement guidebook. BadenP,"4) Many LDS scout leaders purposely do not attend district camporees or events because they view mainstream scout units as a bad influence on their boys on their quest to achieving priesthood?" While there maybe some who feel this way, I have yet to meet any of them. I can't speak for what other leaders may do. I can only tell you what I do and what is suppose to be done with in the program. BadenP,"Now Gary before your answers it may interest you that I had the LDS Stake VP as my district vice chairman for five years" First of all there is no such position as "Stake VP". The Stake presidency is composed of the President and two counselors. BadenP,"and during that time I was invited to many of these special LDS scout and nonscout ceremonies within my district." I believe you. However, I think you have been misguided on what was really happening. Maybe if you elaborate on what was happening at these ceremonies, it would help me to understand what was going on. BadenP, "So unless you can show me that this stake was some kind of rogue group I will stand by my posts and observations and conversations with LDS scouters and church leaders." Ok, however what you have so far posted is in correct as I see scouting in the LDS church. But I'm only one person with years of experience and knowledge in the LDS churches scouting programs. I'm sure others may have a different view. However, my only goal is to clear-up the miss understanding to the best of my ability.

shortridge, "There is one significant program difference that hasn't been mentioned yet. My understanding - and please correct me if I'm wrong! - is that the 11-year-old Scout patrol is only allowed to go camping three times a year, and that each campout can only be for a single night." You are correct. But how many campouts does a boy need to obtain 1st class.

BadenP, "Even though Bart denied it in the site OGE references it states specifically "there are LDS scouting handbooks(plural) that the church uses to administer their program." The little green one Bart states is nothing more than a generic framework of setting up a unit but I remember being shown a much thicker red one and another blue covered one that showed the LDS philosophy in adapting scouting as tool to "prepare young men for the priesthood." in great detail as the SOLE focus of the scouting program and I notice these books are not available to the general public." I'm not sure what books your talking about. However from your description it sounds like the blue on is the Aaronic priesthood handbook and the red one is probably the "General Handbook of Instructions(GHI)" for Bishops and Stake Presidents. The green book and the blue book are chapters with in the GHI. You seem to really be bent on the "philosophy in adapting scouting as tool to "prepare young men for the priesthood."". I don't understand why it is so wrong in your eyes for a organization to use the principles, guidelines, and instruction available from the scouting program to help YM become good citizens, leaders and all around good men. BadenP, "However don't pretend that your LDS boy scout units are just the same as other scout units because they are not." Funny the last time I looked there was no difference in my Boy Scout Handbook, Scoutmasters Handbook, Committee Guidebook, and Scout Training as any other unit. So the facts are they are the same. BadenP, "I have been told by LDS scouts and scouters of some of the rituals that go on in their scouting meetings that really have no place in any scouting program." Rituals? You mean like saying the Pledge, the Scout Master doing a SM minute, and Opening and Closing the meeting with a Pray. Or could it be the service projects they do. Or socializing with the Young Women in a combined activity once a month. BadenP, "Bottom line, the LDS scouting movement is allowed extreme latitude, IMO, by the BSA and thats fine by me and yes, they use the BSA handbook for rank advancement and go camping, but to deny that their focus is on scouting skills is incorrect by what I have witnessed as a DE and from what I have been told by LDS scouters even today. I really wish the LDS Scouting program well, but to state that it is the same as non LDS units is just not true." Sorry but you are just wrong in your views of the LDS Scouting Program. Last I looked we still go camping, hiking, backpacking. We still tie knots, make monkey bridges, learn outdoor skills, and first aid. And we still pattern our lives after the Scout Oath and Law. If your being told different then your being incorrectly informed.

OldGreyEagle, "I thought this discussion was on the LDS Scouting program and the BSA and to talk about the BSA and LDS and not include the Gay policy is ignoring a huge factor. But, I have had my say and will not mention it again in this thread." I was hoping it would be more about how the LDS church uses the BSA program for its youth and less on BSA policy. But if you feel policy important we can discuss it as well. However, I do think the Gay issues has long since been put to bed until BSA or the courts state other wise.

shortridge, "What are the "Standards," " Standards: Principles and teaching in which LDS church members pattern their lives after. In the YM program they include Scout Oath and Law. Here is a link to a guide book we give to our youth to help them live good lives within the church standards. For the Strength of Youth. http://lds.org/pa/library/0,17905,5134-1,00.html shortridge, "and what "conduct" needs reinforcing beyond the Scout Oath and Law?" Conduct: Gospel teachings and Doctrine in which members of the LDS Church strive to live by. Which includes the Scout Oath and Law. Church Standards and Conduct go hand in hand with the Scout Oath and Law. They do not take away form the Scout Oath and Law.