Gary_Miller

JoeBob, "Beavah - I support the fiscal elements of the Tea-Party, but I must agree that Miller's behaviour is a disappointment. He lost - rather substantually. Get over it. Now he'll be remembered as a cry-baby and have no political future. Oops, did I offend the cry-baby group?" How quickly we forget that it was Murkowski who lost the republican primary. Then decided to not support the party choice as the people wanted. So she changed parties and ran as an independent. The only reason she did a write in cam pane is because it was to late to have her name put on the ballot. Murkowski's behavior is much more disappointing than Miller's is. Now who's the cry baby as well as a poor loser? I don't think it's Joe Miller. (This message has been edited by Gary_Miller)

It's only been within the last 10yrs that dens started meeting at the CO's building all on the same night instead of meeting at the DL home at a time that is convenient for the whole den. When I was a cub scout we met at the the DL's home right after school. Our den comprised of other boys living in the neighbor hood. Just like its explained in the handbook. Their was a wolf den and a bear den in the neighbor hood when we aged out of the wolf den we went to the bear den. Den leaders are responsible for the Den program, so let them have the freedom to choose when and where to hold their den meetings. DL'a also support the pack program by making sure their den is ready to carry out their assignments for pack meeting, this could be a skit, song, treats, ect.. CM's are responsible for Pack programs, Pack meeting and other pack activities. It also the CM's job to provide support to the DL's, in the way of making sure they have the materials needed to support the Den program as well as their assignments for pack meeting. The just don't stand in front of the room an MC pack meeting and hand out awards. Pack Committees are there to provide support to the CM and the DL's in the way of administration duties that support the program. They also should be working with the CM in planning and coordinating activities outside of the monthly pack meeting. It seems CM and Pack committees have started dictating when den meetings are held instead of letting the DL make that discussion. My suggestion is to let the DL's have the freedom decide when is the best time and place for them to have their meetings while at the same time providing the option for them to participate in the combined meeting you are now holding.

qwazse, "#2. Learn to make the coffee for your scoutmaster the way he wants." It's not the SPL's or any other scouts job to make coffee for the SM or any other adult. The adults should make their own coffee and food, it will keep them busy and out of the scouts hair. qwazse, "You get the idea ... I can't emphasize that first scentence in #2 enough. Frankly, as chapter chief, it should be one of your objectives for every unit under your sway." This is also not the job of a chapter chief.

Now, I know LDS units are permitted to "tweek" the program to fit their specific needs. No more than another charter Organization, and they never change advancement requirement or deny recognition to a boy who has earned it.

83Eagle, "Basically an iron we can heat in the fire with the name of the pack, year, and camp. Size...???" Should not be a problem. PM me the information and I see what I can do.

packsaddle, "Edit: Gary, I might be interested. What can you do? PM me if you want." I'm a farrier so I have the tools, IE. Forge, to shape most anything you want and if I can't do it I know someone else who can. PM me you design and I'll see what I can do.(This message has been edited by Gary_Miller)

Find a local Farrier/blacksmith they can probably help you out, cheaper than online. If you send me your design I maybe able to help you out, with most of the cost being only materials and shipping.(This message has been edited by Gary_Miller)

I first saw this skit done at a scout camp between the camp director and his son. I saw nothing that was inappropriate and if done properly it gets a lot of laughs from the audience. Like was already stated its important to keep it to appropriate body parts and not get gross. Great skit for a SM and SPL the goal is to get the other person the most creamed.

One way to approach the change that is needed in this troop is: 1) Have a monthly key three meeting with the UC, SM, and SPL, a week before PLC. That way the SPL and SM can get on the same page on where they both want the troop to go which will get them working together, and the UC can providing support and training to both. 2) Hold monthly PLC meetings, the SPL should come prepared with an agenda, which was decided on at the Key three meeting. Follow the outline in the SPL and PL handbooks. Part of this meeting could be some training 5 mins no more on leadership/responsibilities, which is assigned to one of the PLs to teach. 3) Hold a short PLC right after each troop meeting. Use this time to discuss problems, successes, and to see that everyone is ready for next weeks troop meeting. No matter how hard you try without holding these meetings and holding PL accountable for their assignment the troop will continue where it is and the SPL will continue to have problems.

Adults are with adults at night so you would just need to talk with the elangomat and let him know what to do and not to do. Durning the day arrangements could be made so your son is close by, but I can't think of anything you would be doing that would cause problems Just make sure you discuss with the Lodge Advisor and Lodge Chief so they know what your needs maybe.

For what you described here you will be ok none of that happens. My concern would be. How are you if you out sleeping alone and someone wakes you up? Talking with the Lodge Advisor about your concerns before the Ordeal would be advisable. He can make sure that you don't get in a situation that may trigger you. And even go over the whole ordeal with you so you know what to expect. Thanks for your service.

I just talked to the Ore-Ida Council scout shop manager. She stated that the National Camping Award is being phased out and replace by the National Outdoor Awards program. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/Youth/Awards/NOA.aspx If you look at the requirements for the National Outdoor Awards you will see that the awards are rank based and can only be earned Boy Scouts and Varsity Scouts.

The purpose of this tread was to try and help people better understand that a properly ran Scouting Program used in LDS units is the same one as put forth by the Boy Scouts of America. I think that has been shown in the discussion. While I will agree that in some areas the way the program is implement is different it is still the same program. In no way was I trying to convince anyone to change their program that was never my intent. However, if I was able to help someone understand how the LDS program is suppose to be ran, and maybe even helped one LDS leader in better understanding the program in the church then I have accomplished what I set out to do. But I have to agree with "bacchus" this thread has gone behind its usefulness and has started to turn in to more of an argument, than one of honest information seeking and understanding. So with that I will end my side of the discussion, within this tread.

BadenP, "However the scouting literature the LDS church produces, and which I have obtained from an LDS bookstore down the road from me, paints a very different picture, as does explanations from my LDS scouter friends." The only literature that the LDS church produces on scouting is the "Scouting Handbook" which a link was provided earlier in the tread to, and the on Titled "Scouting and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" put out by the BSA LDS Relationship Website. The information I have provided have come from these resources, as well as my experience. While I know there is other literature on line and in book stores that literature while not totally in accurate are the opion of the author. What is the name of the books you purchased? I'm always looking for good books about scouting. As for your scouter friends I don' know them or their experiance with the scouting program both in the LDS Church and the BSA. However, I would like to state that I find many LDS leaders who don't fully understand how the program in the church is "suppose to" be ran. BadenP, "The primary purpose of the scouting program in the LDS church is to insure that all young men obtain the Aaronic priesthood." direct quote from two long time LDS scouter friends of mine, and is similiarly stated in the LDS scout literature. On that point alone LDS scouting is NOT the same as traditional scouting." Funny as I don't find anything close to your quote in any of the literature I have read. Pleas provide a source so I can read it. While your doing that I will refer you to the first page of the LDS Church Scouting Handbook. (link found in this tread somewhere). Read the section titled " The purpose of Scouting in the Aaronic Priesthood (that's what we call the Church program for YM) and Primary (thats what we call Church program for boys)." I think if you read it for understanding you will see that scouting "complements the purpose of Aaronic Priesthood quorums and Primary classes in building testimonies in boys and young men." BadenP, "The methodology of LDS scouting is all aimed toward achieving different stages of priesthood each of which is tied to a different boy scout rank." This is simply not true and can not be found in any literature put out by the church. BadenP, "Yes you guys go camping and teach your boys different basic scout skills, but there seems to be no development of advanced skills as the boys progress in rank," Now your starting to make me laugh. What advance skills would you be talking about. BadenP, "instead that has been replaced with developing skills to make them become competent ministers/missionaries for the church," What skills would you be talking about here. Would it be leadership skills, I guess not since the Scouting teaches that. Maybe it the skills needed to talk in front of a group, nope scouting teaches that also. Maybe it how to cook ones own dinner, oh I forgot scouting teaches that as well. The only one I can think of is church doctrine. And yes we discuss doctrine in all our meetings and every chance we get to teach the boys what they need to serve themselves, their families, their community, their savior, Jesus Christ, and their fellow men. If thats what your talking about then yes we are guilty as charged. BadenP, "which is a huge difference from traditional scouting programs." I'll give you that one, but only because the way the church uses the program to complement religious instruction is different from other CO's. However, the program is not different. BadenP, "I truly wish you and LDS scouting well, however I have not seen any evidence that contradicts anything with what I have posted in this thread, and the bottom line still remains LDS scouting is definitely not the same as traditional scouting programs." I'm truly sorry you feel that way. I honestly thought you to be a more open minded individual. What I have shown and explained is the truth about the LDS church and the BSA Scouting program. I believe that both are perfect programs and are a gift given to us from God to help YM become good people, and if there is any faults they are the faults of men not carrying out the programs properly.

BadenP,"Since you asked me to reply directly here it is, after reading your replies and some LDS scouting literature I have come to see that the LDS scouting program virtually ignores or changes the methods of scouting that interfere with the boy achieving the Aaronic priesthood." Not sure what literature you have been reading but it clear form your posts that 1: You have some in correct information. or 2: You don't understand what it is your reading. I think its both. I've said it many times a properly organized, ran and applied LDS Scouting program, does not ignore or change the methods of scouting. Nor does the scouting program interfere with the boy achieving the Aaronic Priesthood. The fact is what a boy does in scouting has nothing to do with he receiving and advancing in the Aaronic Priesthood, that is all based on his personal worthiness. On the other hand a properly organized, ran and applied Scouting program and Aaronic Priesthood program. Complement each other in a positive away. Used correctly in the ward they mesh together in developing YM who have strong community, social, moral and religious values. Which produces YM who are strong leaders society. BadenP, "The advancement method for one especially seems to be so modified that it is NOT the same as in traditional scouting," Your going to have to provide facts and proof to back up this statement. As the fact is the advancement method is the exact same ones in the BSA Handbook. BadenP, "neither is a troop program boy run but controlled totally by the adults with the entire emphasis on the priesthood over authentic learning of new scout skills, advancing in rank at their own pace, and experiencing real positions of responsibility." Like I said at the very very first post in this thread, "Pay close attention to the words "suppose to" and "properly ran".", A "properly ran" program is the exact same program as the one in the BSA literature. With the exception of the new scout patrol and the selection of the SPL, which has already been discussed, everything else is "suppose to" be ran the same. Are there program happening like you described. I would say yes, for I have seen them. However, they are not being properly implemented and ran according to the BSA or church guidelines and instructions. BadenP, "There seems to be an "Eagle Mill" mentality in the program and among the adults that each step toward priesthood is rewarded with the next rank, whether or not it has been legitimately earned by the boy." I will not disagree that among many leaders there is and "Eagle Mill" mentality. However, these programs are not being properly ran. As far as the priesthood being rewarded with the next rank. The pristhood is not rewarded it is given to a YM when the YM meets the proper age and worthiness standard. The scouting rank of an individual has nothing to do with him receiving and being ordained to the Aaronic Priesthood. BadenP, "The saddest part of all in my OPINION is that the boys are FORCED into scouting" While scouting is the activity program for boys and YM. No one is FORCED to do scouting. All have their free agency to decide what they want to do. However the program for the church is scouting, and unless they are new to the church the boys and YM have grownup knowing this and in most cases look forward to being Boy Scouts. Its been my experience that in those case where the YM is not interested in scouting it because the unit has a poorly improperly ran program. BadenP, "and ADVANCED way too quickly, even if they are not ready, especially since all boys do not learn at the same time or the same way, the LDS model puts them all in the same cookie cutter mold not allowing their own individuality or gifts to be recognized and used in their own development. That is a serious disservice to the boys." If your statement was true then the LDS scouting programs would have 100% Eagle Scouts and we all know that does not happen. YM in the LDS church scouting program advance at their own pace at all different times, and some don't advance at all.

BDPT00, "Could. Might not. A Scoutmaster, however, is a registered Scouter, member of the troop, hopefully trained, and knows his Scouts. I hope you're not suggesting it's the same action." A Bishop is a registered Scouter (IH), member of the troop, team and crew, hopefully trained, and knows his Young Men in most cases better than the scout leaders. It is the same action.

Beavah The results are in the The Scout Aims, The Scout Law, The Scout Oath, The Scout Motto, The Scout Slogan, and The Purposes of the Aaronic Priesthood Purposes of the Aaronic Priesthood * Become converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ and live its teachings. * Serve faithfully in priesthood callings and fulfill the responsibilities of priesthood offices. * Give meaningful service. * Prepare and live worthily to receive the Melchizedek Priesthood and temple ordinances. * Prepare to serve an honorable full-time mission. * Obtain as much education as possible. * Prepare to become a worthy husband and father. * Give proper respect to women, girls, and children. Scouting is only one of the methods used by the LDS Church to obtain these results. Other methods are: * Sunday meeting instruction and teachings * Family Home Evenings * Seminary * Church Sports Programs * Sunday evening Fire Side chats * Church leadership positions * Service Projects From the Churches Scouting Handbook (page 1) You can read the full text in the link shortridge supplied above. "When Properly carried out under the dirction of priesthood leaders, Scouting supplements activities for young men of the Aaronic Priesthood quorums and for eight-, nine-, ten-, and eleven-year-old Primary boys. Scouting also assists in accomplishing the eternal purposes of the priesthood and families. Scouting under Church sponsorship must not operate independently of the priesthood and the family. The Scout unit should become an extension of the home, the deacons,teachers, or priest quorum, or the Primary classes and should function as part of the Church's activity program for boys and young men. Scouting can help boys and young men enhance close relationships with their families and the church while developing strong and desirable traits of character, citizenship, and physical and mental fitness, all based upon a firm belief in God. The original aims and purposes of Scouting outlined by Lord Baden-Powell were to teach boys and young men spirituality, self-reliance, service, leadership skills, emergency preparedness, and conservation of natural resources. Scouts learning these skills participate in worthwhile community, school, and Church service projects. Boys and young men from families of other faiths may also participate in Church-sponsored activities."

shortridge, "As a hypothetical - could a Jewish Scout serve as SPL or PL in a LDS troop?" Yes shortridge, "Is one of the requirements to be "called" a belief in the divinity of Jesus?" Of course not. Do you really think the LDS are that insensitive to others beliefs. I hope that clears it up.

shortridge, "As a hypothetical - could a Jewish Scout serve as SPL or PL in a LDS troop? Is one of the requirements to be "called" a belief in the divinity of Jesus?" Of course not. Do you really think the LDS are that insensitive to others beliefs. shortridge, "I'm still trying to wrap my head around how a troop can hold an election if there's only one candidate; the candidate is pre-selected and approved by the CO; and there are no alternatives." Well I guess you could look at it as every boy is a candidate to begin and through the selection process they are weeded down to one individual who is the put in font of the group for sustaining vote (in-favor or opposed). shortridge, "That doesn't seem like an election or a youth-run program to me." Its defiantly not an election as most know elections to be. I would guess that's why the book said "which for scouting purposes constitutes election". When an individual sustains someone in the church they are saying that they will support and help them to succeed in their calling/position. How the leader of the group is selected has little if anything to do with wither or not the program is Youth-ran/lead. shortridge, "The quorum is a term for LDS Church members, correct? Do only quorum members have a vote to "sustain"? That's what's implied by the handbook and your answer. Do Scouts who are not members of the LDS Church have a vote?" If done correctly the sustaining of the SPL would be done during a troop meeting if there were non-members in the unit. I know that this process of selecting leadership is different and even strange to lots of people. However, you must remember to the YM in the church who have grown-up with all the leaders in the church, from the Church president/prophet to the nursery leader in ward, being selected and sustained in this way. It's as natural as leaves growing on a tree.(This message has been edited by Gary_Miller)

shortridge, "My question is what exactly does this discussion between the bishop and prospective SPL involve as it touches on doctrine and teachings?" The discussion would be one of worthiness. Questions would be of such to determine if one personal conduct in his life is in line with the gospel and teachings of Jesus Christ. Questions like do you obey or parents? Are you honest in your dealing with your fellowman? Are you morally clean? Do you live the scout Oath and Law? Do you attend all your church meetings? Do you fulfill your obligations in your church assignments? The Bishop does have some guidelines to follow but is free to ask anything he feels is appropriate. The interview is confidential and is between the Bishop and the individual? Once the Bishop has determined that the individual is worthy of the call then he will issue an official call asking if the individual is willing to serve in the position. Its allot like a Scout Committee may ask a potential leader when interviewing them for a position. shortridge, "How can a non-LDS Church member knowledgeably discuss, let alone agree to follow, teachings of the LDS church?" The Bishop would not expect an individual to follow the teaching of the LDS Church. But would ask much of the same questions as for a member. And would probably ask if the individual is following the teaching of Jesus Christ as he understood them or with in the teaching of their own religion. shortridge, "I'm also confused about just how youth leaders are selected in a troop chartered to an LDS church, and am hoping some knowledgeable folks can help me out." Leaders are nominated and selected by the Bishop and his counselors after careful discussion and prayer. They may also consult or ask for recommendations from the youth leader/SM over the group. shortridge, "The handbook published at http://www.lds-scouts.org/Resources/Sct_Hndbk.pdf states that all units' main youth leaders are nominated by the bishopric and sustained by the quorum members, which for Scouting purposes constitutes election." (Note: I know this is an older version, as it refers to Explorer posts, but it's all I could find online.) It also seems to suggest (if I'm reading it correctly) that patrol leaders are not elected, but rather the deacons and teachers quorum presidents hold those roles automatically. How does all that mesh with the part of the Scouting program that says patrol leaders and the SPL are elected?" The Book your looking at is the current book. When you look at that book your looking at the same one I'm looking at. In the LDS Church members called to a position are the presented to the membership and membership is asked to sustain the member in their position. This is done my the show of hand in favor as well as opposed. This is considered and election. So the main difference is the nomination process. In non-lds units the potential leaders are usually nominated for election by the boys. In and LDS unit the Bishop (IH)nominates interviews and the asks the quorum members (troop) for a sustaining vote.

Beavah, "There's nothing wrong with tweaking the program, but there is if yeh find that the ways you're tweaking it aren't likely to get yeh to the kinds of results yeh claim to want." I think the ways the LDS church has implemented the program for their young men gives the church the results they want.

BDPT00, "To hint in even the slightest way that LDS Scouting is the same as "regular" Scouting is ludicrous." To even suggest that Scouting within the LDS COs is anything but regular scouting using BSA program materials is just ridiculous.

GernBlansten, "I'm confused. The 3 night limitation on camping and keeping 11 year olds separate from the rest of troop activities is your own adaptation to the program and not a directive from the church?" It's not my adaptation it's the churches directive. I made that plan in the quote that I typed right out of the churches 6 page scouting handbook.(This message has been edited by Gary_Miller)

BadenP, "LDS scouting is not the same as traditional scouting programs the eight methods have been changed to accomodate LDS missionary preparation methods over the advancement methods set down with the BSA program." Which one of the eight methods as established by the BSA has the LDS church changed to accommodate LDS missionary preparation methods? Make sure you use facts in your answer, not your opion. BadenP, "So now does this make LDS scouting different, yes it does." Like I have said and shown the program is not different. The Boy Scout Aims and Methods are exactly the same. The material used are official BSA material. BadenP, "Does this methodology make it difficult for a non LDS member of an LDS troop to fully fit in, IMO, yes it really does." Your opion is absolutely incorrect. From experience I have had several non LDS scouts and leaders and there has never been any problems with them fully being fit into the program. BadenP, "So the question then becomes in spite of all its good intentions is LDS scouting truly scouting?" Of course it is. Why would you think any different? BadenP, "Or is it a case where the CO uses an established program for its own purposes/priorities over that of the needs of the boys?" As a charter organization the CO can use the BSA program "To help them accomplish their objectives". How is it that you feel that the COs of the LDS church puts their own purposes/priorities over the needs of the boys they serve?

I stated no such thing. All the materials use was official BSA material available to anyone.