Gary_Miller

Eagle92, "Kudu and GM As for service projects, especially the Eagle Service Project, I think they are important and don't think of them as a pain. I veiw the ESP as the culmination of the trail, applying what they have learned through the years." No one said that service projects were not important. Its just that too much emphasis is being placed on them, usually by programs that are adult ran and led. While youth don't mind doing service projects I have not seen very many youth led and ran program where the youth plan a service project at every campout or event. If there is its usually because the adults insisted that it be part of the event. Like I said before a well ran program will produce service projects automatically, as service is part of the advancement program.(This message has been edited by Gary_Miller)

Kudu, I was trying to be nice. "Prepared For Life", there is no better way to prepare a young man for life than to give him some scout-craft skills. There's nothing better that will give the a YM the ability to think through problems. While we may rely on computer technology to do many things in life, there is still a need for hard hands on labor of industry. "So what do we mean by being Prepared For Life: Obviously we don't have to learn how to catch a runaway horse anymore. That's not an important skill!" OK I'll give the CSE this one. So lets teach them how to change the oil, plugs, tires, brakes, etc. maybe even how to replace and engine or transmission on ones car. Not everyone is going to make enough money to pay a mechanic to do this for them.

Beavah, I have to agree and disagree with you. I agree that the Scout Master should not be just sitting and ordering the boys around. I disagree that the SM or any other adults should do anymore but unload their own gear and set up their own camp area. Its not their job to pitch in and help the patrols. Its the youths job to do this. The SM is only there as an advisor and to ensure safety, not to do the work that is the responsibility of the youth and the youth leadership.

Engineer61,"As for the community service aspect, I think there is far too much focus on it in BSA. I think the ratio of CS hours to outing hours is probably 3:1." I have to agree with Engineer61 on this one. It seems that some units are placing why to much emphasis is being placed on Community Service and not on scouting skills and getting out in the woods doing scouting. In the last few years it seems, at least in my area, that the scouts have become cheap labor for the city and the county to get projects done all in the name of service. It has gone so far that some of our camporees have focused on Community Service and not on scout showing off their scout skills in competition. Now don't get me wrong I think Community Service is important and has it place in scouting. However, some adults seem to think its the most important part of scouting. Its my personal belief and experience that Community Service just happens if there is a well run/rounded program. If units are being led and ran by the youth, with proper guidance from their adult advisors(Scout Masters and Assistant Scout Masters), service will just happen. After all every advancement rank requires some type of community service.

Twocubdad,"Horse hockey." Ok, what ever you think. But go back and reread your posts it seems that there is a lot of youth in you troop that act out. My guess just from your posts that there is a lack of respect between the adults and the youth. Basementdweller, "So Gary......they were backpacking.....so the adults need to carry the stoves and fuel. Naw that isn't right, I have more 100,000 mile's on my knees than they do." So the adults don't have to pack it in. However, once the troop is on site the fuels should be collected and store in a safe area. Basementdweller, "If I cannot trust them to haul a stove and fuel I don't need to be responsible for him on an outing." Like it or not you are responsible for him once his parents leave the parking lot of the troop gathering place. This is why its important that adult and youth have respect and trust for each other. Adults gain this respect from the youth by showing them they care about them as an individual. Youth gain this respect from the adults by following the rules and working together with the other youth. Only when you have this respect can the learning process start. Remember,its easier to build a boy into a man than repair the man. The G2SS does not say youth can't handle, transport, or even be involved in the storage of fuel. It says "An adult knowledgeable about chemical fuels and equipment should always supervise youths involved in the storage, handling, and use of chemical fuels and equipment." The key word is supervise. (This message has been edited by Gary_Miller)

Twocubdad,"I suppose that's part of my frustration -- this numbnuts dang-well knows better!" With respect like this its no wonder the youth in your unit act out. I think the first and most important thing is safety in everything. The next is adults having respect for youth. The next is remembering that boys will be boys. And along with being a boy many crazy, foolish, and sometimes dangerous things will happen. Remember we were once where our youth are and we did many of the same stupid things they are doing. Getting angry providing punishments and calling the kids names is not going to do anything to stop the boys from doing crazy, foolish, and sometimes dangerous things. The most important thing we can do is show love for the youth, teach them about safety rules and why. Show love for the youth, and teach them safety rules and why. Show love for the youth and teach them safety rules and why. Show them you care by giving the youth your respect. Did I mention show them love and lots of love. In this case I would have the senior troop leaders do safety briefing on the proper use and storage of fuels. And may I suggest that the adults of the troop review the GTSS, as it seems like there may have been some lacking on the adults side that may have prevented this episode from happening. From the GTSS "Storing, Handling, and Using Chemical Fuels and Equipment An adult knowledgeable about chemical fuels and equipment should always supervise youths involved in the storage, handling, and use of chemical fuels and equipment."

My 19yr scout sons advice. It obviously the scout likes fires so why not make it his job to be the Troop Fireman. Don't make it sound like a punishment but make it something he can do because of his interest in fires. Duties would be. Over sees: All Building and lighting all troop fire. Fire safety preparation, making sure that fire buckets are place at each tent, and fire circles are built properly, ect.. Storage and usage of fuels.

It varies from unit to unit. But my experience is to contact every member of the LDS ward in which the unit is attached. In my current unit we have a night where the scout committee gets together and goes down the ward roster making calls and asking for donations to FOS, then we have someone go out and pick up the donation. In other ward I been in we split the roster and make a personal visit to the ward members asking for donations.

SPLs and PLs are always elected by the troop members. While some units have special requirements on who is eligible to run, BSA has no such requirements. I don't think there is a need for such requirements, the YM are more than capable of making a choice on who should lead the troop and patrols. Once the decision is made by the youth its the SMs responsibility to teach them what their responsibilities are, and to advise them in all things(NOTE: ADVISE NOT DICTATE). Then to step back get out of the way and let them drive the car, with the understanding that the youth may not choose to go in the direction you want them to. If the SM can't do this or the SM does not get along with the youth who was chosen by the troop member. Then he needs to step down and let someone who can step up as SM.

Invite all the Veterinarians in attendance to come forward and help. Then just have them hold the flag in front of the fire so the fire reflects through the flag. then they just lay the flag in the fire and fold the sides over into the fire starting with the corners until the flag is all in the fire. As the flag is burning the Vets all step back and salute the flag until its gone. A Flag retirement is not suppose to be a grand ceremony, just a simple respectful retirement of the flag. It is also not suppose to be done a part of the meeting. We always officially close the meeting. Retire the flag then leave the area quietly. The flag retirement being the last thing done. One thing we also did was have the Vets leave the area first but line the path so the young men could thank them for their service. It really means a lot to the Vets and the Youth, and the youth are sometimes surprised by who are the Vets among them.

My current job Farrier(Horseshoer), you don't get any dirtier than the bottom of a horses hoof. But I would not give up working for myself no matter how dirty the job.(This message has been edited by Gary_Miller)

Lots of posters have eluded to this not being a scout like activity, because they are camping in someones back yard and spending time watching videos. I disagree I think anytime a patrol or troop gets together as a group and does something is a scout activity. It does not have to always involve being away from home or being out in the woods for the youth to have a good bonding experience.

In my opion selecting of adults into the OA is one of the most important responsibilities of the LA and SA. They need to make sure that those selected will be an asset to the lodge and their chapters. Fare to often it seems adults are selected for what they have done in scouting and not for what they can bring to the lodge. The following statement is at the top of the Adult Selection form "Selection and induction into the Order of an adult Scouter should take place only when the adult's job in Boy Scouting or Varsity Scouting will make Order of the Arrow membership more meaningful in the lives of the youth membership. It must not be for the purpose of adult recognition." Notice it says "when the adult's job in Boy Scouting or Varsity Scouting will make Order of the Arrow membership more meaningful in the lives of the youth membership." This may not be the SM as he may be to busy to help with the Lodge or Chapter. However in lots of cases its the SM who get selected because of what he has done. Thus it makes the selection a "purpose of Adult recognition". When this happen then problems arise. In our lodge the selection is made at the time the election is done. On the election form there is a place for the team to add an adult. Usually what happens is the team ask the SM if he would like to be an OA member. If he says yes then his name is added to the form and he gets inducted into the OA. Which in most cases causes a "Sash and dash adult" because they are to busy with their unit to get involved as advisors within the OA. Just recently this process has caused problems in a couple of chapters as there is no adult willing or able to take on the rule of chapter advisor. The OA does not function well with out adult advisors to work with the youth. The selection adult nomination form has several questions to be filled out by to help in selecting adults who can "make Order of the Arrow membership more meaningful in the lives of the youth membership". 1. Selection of the adult is based upon ability to perform the necessary functions to help the Order fulfill its purpose, and not for recognition of service, including current or prior achievement and position. The individual's abilities include: 2. This adult will be an asset to the Order because of demonstrated abilities that fulfill the purpose of the Order, in the following manner: 3. The camping requirements that apply for youth candidates apply to adult candidates and must have been fulfilled within the most recent two years prior to recommendation for membership. The requirement, which is a minimum of fifteen days and nights of camping, which must include six days and five nights of resident camping approved and under the auspices and standards of the Boy Scouts of America, was fulfilled as follows: 4. This adult leader's membership will provide a positive role model for the growth and development of the youth members of the lodge because: It maybe necessary for the unit committee nominating someone to sit down and go over the form with them in order to get the answers needed to fulfill the adult role, as well as help the individual to know what expected of them. That way the OA will get the adults needed who are willing to put in the time necessary to ensure "Order of the Arrow membership more meaningful in the lives of the youth membership." After all the OA is about the youth not the adults. As for the process in our lodge. Well lets just say I'm in for a long up hill battle to fix problems that have extended from years of tradition of not following the "OA Guide to Officers and Advisors".

DeanRx, "Besides - if national would just hurry up and compact in into a 1 year program, there would be no need to diferetiate between the two, kids wouldn't burn out and we would likely retain more kids into BOY SCOUTS...." Actially if you look at the program it can be based on age or grade. Cub Scout Units chartered by the LDS Church use an age based program with Cub Scouts starting at the age of eight in the Wolf Den(no Tiger program), graduating to the Bear Den when they turn nine, and graduating to the Webelos Den when they turn Ten, and then moving to the Boy Scout Troop when they turn 11. I find it works well and its no problem with a CS making AOL within one year.

The problem here is what the boys have been taught and its a big problem in a lot of troops. In this case the troop these boys come from have decided that a "Full uniform(is)from the waist up as is normal and acceptable for our troop." This is the standard set by their troop so there is no incentive to get a Full Uniform. I always hear the excuse that the reason for this is because of the costs. To that I say "Bull ucky". If this was a sports team the YM would purchase the proper uniform no matter the cost. If we want our youth in full uniform then we have to set that standard in our units. We don't have to beat up the boys because they don't have a full uniform. However, some things have to happen to give them incentive to purchase uniform items. Things like; uniform inspections (teaches the boys whats expected), requiring uniforms at all BOR's (even if its borrowed), requiring all scouts to travel in uniform on all campouts, ect. Set the standard high the youth will arise to the standard. Set the standard low and the youth will arise to the standard. Its all about setting the standard where it should be, not lowering the standard. Now with that said there will be some families that just can't afford a $50 pair of pants any more than they can afford a $50 shirt. For those families there are many things that can be done by the unit. Namely start a uniform exchange by purchasing experienced uniform items and sell them or give them to the youth as needed. There are many places where you can purchase uniform for under $15 if you just look. We just need to stop making excuses and set the standard where it should be.

You can find out all you need to know about the youths advancement by requesting an transfer form the council the youth came from. If the youth is in the same council all one needs to do is go to the Council office and ask for a print out of the boys records. Nothing else matters due to the fact what council has is the official record. Then go to the YM Scout Handbook to see where he is on the rank he is currently working on. If its signed off in the book then it done if its not then he has to do it again even if he says he has done it. Not signed off not done. No need for any reports from the past troop. No need for any conversation with the past troop on the YM performance. There is no need to even talk with the past unit. What happened there is not important at all when it comes to how the new unit should treat the YM. What is important is that the SM welcomes the YM with loving caring open arms. Letting him know that you care about him as a person. What happened in the past is unimportant to what should happen in his future. We are trying to build men here from boys. Men who are can have a positive impact to their family, community, nation and world. We have to remember that boys will make mistakes, some more server than others. Its all about growing up and learning from our experiences, and choosing right over wrong. Sometimes we choose wrong. When we do there are consequences for our actions. Its what we learn and do from those consequences that make us better people. If we are always being looked at and judged for our past mistakes and sins. Then there is no way we can ever improve as our mistakes and sins will alway be with us. I don't think this is what our Heavenly Father had in mind when Jesus Christ suffered for the sins of all man kind. Repentance isn't it a wonderful principle.

I would do nothing except welcome the new boy to the troop, no different than I would do with any other boy.

The LDS Scouting relations office has a paper titled "Church Positions Overlap Possible BSA Positions" Here is a link. (hope it works) https://www.ldsbsa.org/pdf/resources/LDS%20Church%20Positions%20and%20Possible%20BSA%20Positions.pdf My personal preference is to have the Stake YM Presidency fill Unit Commissioner positions as the responsibilities are closely related.

What did the district say was the reason for the change? I would suggest that you get your COR involved at the district meeting to work on changing district meeting to a night thats convenient for all units to attend, and then not change it. IE: not on a meeting night. Nothing is carved in stone. Unless there is a scheduling problem with the CO calendar the troop meeting night could be changed in order for troop leaders to attend their meeting. It just takes someone to bring it up so it can be discussed. It could be that no one ever mentioned that there was a conflict with the District Round Table. Most important though is the COR working with the district to see that the round table get set in stone and never changes. That way units can plan their meeting night around Round Tables. (This message has been edited by Gary_Miller)

SMT224 I suggest you looking at changing your troop meeting night to another night so you and the other leaders of your unit can attend Round Tables. Round Tables is just not another meeting but its a night of training for leaders. It gives you as a leader a chance to interact with other leaders and rejuvenate your commitment to the youth of the organization.

SMT224, I guess my question would be. Do you attend monthly District Round Tables? Does your COR of CC attend monthly District Meeting? The reason I ask is that it seems odd to me that the first time you hear about an activity is one month out and by e-mail. Most of the times these activities are at least scheduled and announce at Round Table or District Meeting, a couple of months out at the least.

Eagle92, "One thing that got me thinking, maybe the Vigil Chair also does the role of AS in the Vigil Ceremony SOOOO It would be appropriate to call him the VVC?" Except there is no such position as Vigil Chair. The proper title would be Chairman of the Vigil Selection Committee, who serves at the pleasure of the Lodge Chief. Using your logic would mean that the OA ceremony team member who does the role of AS at the Brotherhood Ceremony and Ordeal ceremony would appropriately be called. The Brotherhood Vice Chief and the Ordeal Vice Chief. Now that would be silly they are only playing a role in a ceremony. They are just members of the ceremony team which is usually lead by the VC of Ceremonies.

John-in-KC, "Lest we all forget, the SE is responsible for everything that happens or fails to happen in a Council. That's why he's supreme chief of the fire, outranking the Lodge Chief." Yes and SE's have been fired for not supporting the youth of the Lodge. Believe it or not the Youth in the OA talk with each other around the country. The support group they have at the region and national level would surprise you.

John-in-KC, "Let me make this real simple. Money talks, bull**** walks. If the Silver Beaver or the Vigil Honor can bring in a major donation," Except its the youth in the OA who are providing the many hours of service opening and closing camps, conducting AOL ceremonies, Staffing day camps, and council camps, as well as donating money to the council programs such as camper ships and James E. West awards. In our lodge alone in the last year had donated over $4k to these programs. John-in-KC, "the youth need to learn an important life lesson: When the boss, talks, they STFU and say "Yes, Sir." Its the other way in the OA the adults need to learn a life lesson, which is youth are very capable of running their own programs and making the important discussions within that program. In which case its the adults that need to learn that the youth are the boss, and when the boss talks they STFU and say "Yes, Sir what can I do to help." Anything less than that and the advisor is just in the way of progress. John-in-KC, "The Scouters who are being considered for Vigil are investing hard sweat equity and cold hard cash into their Councils." In most cases I would say, Yep. But I've seen some cases that would make you wonder. John-in-KC' "Lots of time advisers forget that, and youth members have yet to confront that life lesson being shoved where their suns do not shine." Yep, lots of time advisors forget who really is in charge of the OA, and when they do it causes head aches and heart ache for the youth who tries to fulfill his responsibilities but has to over come the hurdle of an advisor who don't understand the role of a Lodge Chief. John-in-KC, "Or do they think their staff scholarships grow on trees?" What staff scholarships? John-in-KC "Cynical? Mebbe Realistic? Yeah." Backwards in practice? Defendantly. (This message has been edited by Gary_Miller)

SR540Beaver, "Yet it appears that more than my Lodge uses the title. I don't see how it will hurt anything in the grand scheme of things." Here is how it hurts in the grand scheme of things. When the term "Vigil Chief" is used for any position other than during the Vigil ceremony. There is a perceived perception that Vigil Honor connotes a separate membership or grouping. When is reality it no more than an honor bestrode on a "Arrowmen who, by reason of exceptional service, personal effort, and unselfish interest, have made distinguished contributions beyond the immediate responsibilities of their position or office to one or more of the following: their lodge, the Order of the Arrow, Scouting or their Scout camp." An because in most lodges a youth selected for vigil on average only has one year left in the lodge before they head of to college and other endeavors. It leaves a grouping of adults who form a good old boys club. Who start acting like they are more important than the youth. Many of which seem to forget what it means to be a "Vigil Honor Member" in the order. When this grouping develops it can lead to "the nominating committee to be(coming) a committee of the whole involving all or substantially all Vigil Honor members of the lodge." which is something that the Guide for Officers and Advisors states should not happen " Nor is the Vigil Honor nomination process to be one in which the Vigil Honor members of the lodge, as a group, determine who is selected." The way the term/position is used in some lodges it takes one of the most important responsibilities a Lodge Chief has with in the lodge that of selection of the Vigil Honor Nominating committee. The Guide Book does not say the Vigil Chief selects the committee and that the Vigil Chief is the committee chair. It says "The lodge chief (not the Vigil chief) appoints a Vigil Honor nominating committee chairman and committee members composed of youths who have been approved by the lodge adviser and Scout executive. The lodge adviser appoints one adult adviser in consultation with the lodge chief and staff adviser. The chairman and committee members are usually Vigil Honor members; however, any youth member of the lodge may serve on the committee, provided that he is not eligible to receive the Vigil Honor. A committee of five to 10 youths has been found effective in many lodges. The key is to keep the committee to a manageable size, yet large enough to complete its task. The committee should be of sufficient size so that its members will collectively be aware which Arrowmen have been the leaders and workers in the lodge." No where in the Guide Book will you find the term Vigil Chief or Vice Chief for Vigil. Therefore the term should not be used for anything except the Vigil Ceremony. (This message has been edited by Gary_Miller)