Gary_Miller

Merlyn, one can not change a definition just because it serves their personnel agenda. Never the less if we use your definition then you and anyone else who is affiliated with The Boy Scouts of America is a bigot. It does not matter if you agree or disagree with the policy, if you are registered, donated money, drove a scout to camp, or have anything to do with BSA you are affiliated with them. And by your definition that makes you are a bigot. Merlyn_LeRoy, "See? The church is saying that the BSA's rules are FORCING them, it wasn't their decision." When the church signed up as a CO they signed on to uphold BSA standards and policies. It was at that time they made their decision.

Merlyn_LeRoy,"Now ask this crowd what happens with a 13-year-old who says he's an atheist. Lots of them will say he can join." I'm not sure what everyone else in the crowd would say or do. I can only speak for myself, in this case we would have a discussion on what an atheist is. Then we would discuss the Scout Oath especially the part about "Duty to God". When I was comfortable that the boy understood what "Duty to God" really means. Then I would ask him if he as an atheist could honestly take upon himself the "Scout Oath" and live by its principles. If he said Yes" then I would help him understand that he is not truly a atheist just a young person who is still seeking what he truly believes. If he said "No" then I would have no problem telling him that the Boy Scouts is not a good fit for his beliefs, because one must be true to themselves and that you can't take the oath and still be true to their own beliefs. Its does not get any simpler than that. Merlyn_LeRoy, "And by the way Beavah, like I said, this issue is NEVER going to go away; people will NEVER stop complaining about the BSA's bigotry. Your "get over it" is useless." How can you or anyone accuse BSA of "Bigotry" just because they have set a standard for their membership. Definition of BIGOTRY 1: the state of mind of a bigot 2: acts or beliefs characteristic of a bigot (Merriam-Webster) 1.stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own. 2.the actions, beliefs, prejudices, etc., of a bigot. Dictionary.Com) Definition of a BIGOT A person who won't listen to anyone whose ideas or beliefs are different from his or her own; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial group) with hatred and intolerance. (Merriam-Webster student dictionary) A person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc. : a bigoted person ; especially : a person who hates or refuses to accept the members of a particular group (such as a racial or religious group.(Merriam-Webster Learners Dictionary) A person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance(Merriam-Webster) The key words here is "won't listen", "strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, ect", and "obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices". I think BSA does not fit the description of a bigot. BSA has listened fairly to all the arguments on why homosexuals should be allowed to be adult leaders. They have also listened fairly to all the arguments on why they should not be allowed to be adult leaders. After listening to the arguments BSA has determined that the homosexual life style is not a good fit for the standards and morals that "The Boy Scouts of America" ,and their chartered partnerships, want to instill in young men. The decision is not based on hatred, intolerance, or dislikes of other people. The decision was based on the the standards, principles, and morals the organization, and its chartered partnerships, wants to teach, and instill in the youth they serve.

From the article, "Steele approached the scout master, Mike Tucker, to inform him of her partnership of nearly two decades with Funk. He told her there was no problem." The SM was wrong when he said "there was no problem". Although he may not have a personal problem with it, BSA standard does and as a BSA leader he should support BSA standards. The correct response should have been, "BSA standards does not support the Homosexual life style so you can not be a leader." It does not get any simpler than that. The standard is the standard like it or not its what it is. If you don't like the standard you are always free to go start your own organization with the standards you want. What you don't have is the right to force any organization to change their standards just so you can be part of the organization. From the article, "The way Steele and Funk explain it is the reason why her homosexuality was overlooked was due to locality local organizations can choose to overlook some of the Boy Scouting standards." While local CO's have the freedom to adapt and use the program to supplement their organizations youth programs. They do not have the right to overlook BSA standards and policies.

Eamonn, "I'm not so sure about Troops that fail when it comes to basic skills not failing when it also comes to using the methods?" I think a lack of basic skills shows a program that is also lacking in all the other methods. Eamonn,"I also know a lot of kids who once they get their butts kicked are just willing to throw in the towel and leave it at that. Not all but some kids!" Yep, thats because its the easy way out. Its up to the advisors (SM) to help the young men to step up to the plate and improve their skills. Of course it may mean the advisors have to take a look at the program make what ever adjustments maybe necessary to eliminate the throw in the towel attitude altogether. Eamonn, "I'm willing to bet that if the District Camporees that our District has were all about Scout Skill Competitions the same Troop would always win time after time." They set the bar because its important to them. Its up to the other troops to come up to the bar. Eamonn,"Mainly because the adults in that Troop have the skills and have found ways of passing them on and allow Scouts opportunities to use them." I disagree with you here. Its mainly because the adults in the troop have taken the time to learn the skills, have taught the young men the importance of learning the skill instead of just passing off a requirement, and make sure the young men get the opportunities to use the skills. Eamonn, "Some Troops rely on District events as being their entire outdoor program and if the Scouts don't get the opportunity to learn needed skills at these events, then the opportunity is lost." Camporee's were never meant to be a opportunity for learning skills. They have always been for showing off what you know or don't know through competition. Believe it or not competition among young men is natural. Tampa Turtle, "I have seen some boys with low self esteem really get discouraged when they get shown up at these things." Only be cause they are not prepared. Just take that same group of young men, help them prepare by learning and perfecting the basic scout skills. I guarantee you that their self esteem will will no longer be low when the kick butt. Even if they don't win each event. Tampa Turtle, "Also some with disabilities. So I wouldn't want to write them off as "too bad, so sad". These are the guys we really need to reach. Need to work with them more (and their Patrol's to help them learn as well)" I'm not talking young men with mental and physical disabilities, these are thing beyond their control, thats a whole different situation. My experience has been that most young men will include and help those with disabilities even if it means losing a competition. (This message has been edited by Gary_Miller)

vol_scouter "Forgot to add, stop paying off people's mortgages. Most of us who have bought homes were responsible and bought within our means. We get punished for doing so because we end up paying off the irresponsible people who borrowed more than they could afford." How funny you should mention this while some of the problem is irresponsible people I feel most of the problem is irresponsible bankers and an housing market that was over inflated, and is now burst. I'm one of those who was responsible and bought within my means only to have it all come crushing down due to the economy. When I refinanced my rental property (previous home) to purchase the one I now live in the value was at $175K, I owed $40K (I only borrowed $140), I had my AF Retirement (with a yearly COL increase), my wife had a $20 and hour job, my Farrier business was doing well and growing, and my home had been rented out for the last 6 years. Now I'm upside down on my property, now valued at $107K I owe $136K, I have an AF Retirement (with no COL increase for 3 years), my wife has no job, my farrier business is doing half as much as it was and shrinking, and my home is not rented out. All because of the irresponsible choices made by the banks and the government, which put the economy into a tail spin. Now don't get me wrong I don't want the government to pay off my mortgage. I'm more than willing to pay what I owe. But I just can't do it without a renter in the house. So I hope the bank will be understanding and make adjustments to the loan so I can get through this. If not the bank will own a nice 5 Bedroom home outside an airbase in Idaho.

Eamonn "But...Not a lot of fun for the Scouts who don't have the skills to compete." I don't know what to say except "so sad, to bad" However, it been my experience that in a truly boy ran and lead troop they only look foolish once. After that the program will be changed (by the boys themselves) to a scout skill based program focused on getting ready to kick some butt at the next camporee.

It seems to me that one of the biggest problems, which has been discussed, is the lack of scouting skills. I think a symptom of this problem is the feeling by leaders of a need to teach everything as if we are in a classroom environment. Then since the young man as sat through the instruction we pass them off on the requirement. Always overlooking the important words such as demonstrate, show to your __ satisfaction, or do, part of the requirement. Another symptom is the tendency for camporees to be places of learning and teaching and not showing off skills. Camporees have always been place of competition where patrols competed against other patrols to see who is the best at particular skills. Camporees are not the place to teach skills its the place for scouts to show they know their stuff. So the solution is to make sure your district camporees are competitions not skill learning events.

packsaddle, "I know persons who will retire with incomes in mid-to-high 6 figures. Why should they get SS on top of that?" For no other reason than they and their employer paid into the program.

Beavah, using your logic of cutting a program just because its the biggest portion of the budget not logical at all. Especially when two of the programs SSI and Medicare are primarily funded by those who work paying into the programs. You can't cut base on the amount of the budget you have to first decide what the mission is then cut those areas that are not mission essential. Using yours and many others logic would mean that because my mortgage, life insurance, automobile insurance, groceries and power are the biggest part of my budget that I should make my cuts there. When in reality most of my cuts should come from my discretionary spending money fast food, entertainment, TV, and other things that are not necessary to my families survival. Or if you take my buisness, I'm a Farrier, it would mean making cuts in my purchase of Rasps, Nails, horseshoes, vehicle fuel, vehicle insurance, cell phone, and propane. Those are the areas where I spend the most money, however if I make cuts in anyone of those areas I can't do my work which means that I don't make any money. While some of these items could be done away with for instance I could eliminate my cell phone and propane costs all together. But doing so would make the job more difficult. Getting rid of the Cell Phone would mean not being able to communicate with my customers during the day (mission essential). If I cut out the propane (Use for the forge) then I end up shaping shoes cold (more work more wear on my body) I also end up eliminating some of the services (less capability less money). So you see the only places I have to cut is in the little areas of my budget the discretionary money. The area that make life easier but that are not essential in accomplishing what my mission is. The same holds true for the government the cuts need to come from the none mission essential programs, not just the programs that are the largest part of the budget.

Look guys the point I'm trying to make is that there are other area besides Social Security, Medicare, Veterans, and Defense to cut. But everyone just looks at these because thats where the big money is at. However I'm sure we all agree that Social Security, Medicare and Veterans are the only true entitlement programs. If we make any income at all we pay into Social Security and Medicare therefore we are entitled to receive the benefits of the programs. Veterans, through the sacrifice and the contract they have with the citizens of the country are entitled to receive the benefits of the programs. Defense, if we want to remain living under the freedoms of the Constitution then we need a strong defense. Are there things in these program that could be changed to save money? Yes there is. Do other programs serve an important benefit? Yes they do. Can cuts be made across the board and still allow all programs to function? Yes they can? What we can't say is that the money saved from one program is just a small drop in the bucket so lets not do anything there. I heard this through out my military career its just nickels compared to the over all budget. Well over time those unneeded nickel programs become hundred, thousands and millions of dollars. To fix the over all problem we need to be willing to cut spending no matter how small it is and no matter how many government jobs are done away with. There is savings in every cut. What we should not be doing is taking entitlements away, or changing the program in mid stream for those who have really earned the entitlement. Just because the programs have been mismanaged by our elected officials.

Gunny2862,"Gary, that's very pause, Libertarian of you." I think not. Gunny2862, "But sounds about right assuming one trusts industry to regulate itself more than the Government to regulate on our behalf." Who do you think makes the standards. I'll give you one guess its not the Government. The government don't know the whats good so they rely on input from within the industry when coming up with the standard. The only thing the government does is enforce the standard with government paid labor. I'm talking about industry paying for that enforcement instead of the government. For instance take nursing homes for example. The nursing home industry working with government comes up with the standard. The individuals nursing homes pay for the inspection by using an certified inspector. The inspector in-turn submits their finding back to the government code enforcer who in-turn determine if the standard is met or not. Those buisness who don't met the standard are turned over to the judicial system for prosecution. Gunny2862,"The feedback loop works better when the customers have something tangible to rate versus the price of the product and can fiscally reward those who do things effectively." The industry inspection standard does just that give the consumer a guide on which to judge the service. The consumer then can make the decision on wither or not to use that service. Those service that don't met the standard will soon die due to the lack of customers. I'm not talking about no government involvement just involvement at the lowest level of government and then only for setting and enforcing the standards using independent inspectors. Takes the government out of the personnel buisness, and provides competition.

shortridge,"OK. Let's stop inspecting nursing homes, making federal student loans, checking air quality, building and maintaining bridges and dams, managing water resources in the West and inspecting food quality." Stop inspecting nursing homes, Nope just take it out of the governments responsibility, have independent contractors do the inspections using guidelines decided on by nursing home industry and paid for by the independent nursing homes. Stop building and maintaining bridges and dams, keeping public infrastructure well maintained is one of the purposes of the government. Thats why we pay taxes, motor vehicle taxes, fuel taxes, ect.. However, does it need to be people on the government payroll do the inspections, and work with an overhead of equipment, or can we use independent contractors to do the inspections and work with an overhead of equipment. Stop making federal student loans, Yes STOP shift this responsibility to lenders. The Federal Government has no buisness giving out loans of any kind. If you want a loan go to the bank. Stop checking air quality, no just make it the companies responsibility to meet the industry standard using their own resources to purchase and pay for equipment and personal to do the testing. Stop managing water resources in the West, it depend on what the resource is for. Why not make it the water users reprehensibility. For instance pass the cost off to the power customers, irrigation customers, recreationalists who use the water. Stop inspecting food quality, don't stop just pass the responsibility and costs off to the industry and the end user instead of the government In other words those who use pay the cost of the program and the programs are managed under the responsible industry with local government over site not federal over site.

Just see the advancement coordinator/registrar in your council office and get a official copy of your sons advancement records. That the record with you when you visit the Scout Supply Shop. You should be able to purchase anything you need as long as its on the advancement report.

Sorry for the long rant in my last post. It just irks me the first things brought up to cut is the only true entitlement programs, Social Security, Medicare, and Veterans. Or they talk about Defense, EMS, Fire, Police, infrastructure, ect.. How come no one ever mentions programs like Health and Welfare, Department of Education, Department of Environmental Quality, Army corps of engineers, Department of interior, Department of agriculture, and many other federal programs that suck money out of the system just to pay those working in the programs. Why not start the cuts in the personnel department.

Beavah, "If ever a group proved themselves completely incapable of governing intelligently and responsibly, da Tea Party Republicans did." Actually its the Tea Party who are true conservatives and patriots. Most of them are not thinking about themselves but how we can get the countries affairs straighten out and in line with the Constitution. The debt problem of the nation cannot be solved by taking more money from the people and then giving to others to use as they please. The solution is to control spending something allot of the current folks in congress either don't understand or don't care to, because they are more interested in staying in office than fixing the problems. Having worked with funding government funding issues at the lowest levels of the government (I was the financial manager for my unit while in the Air Force) I can assure you that there is allot of unneeded spending that accrues that would save thousands of dollars every year. You should see the craziness come September 30th every year. Beavah, "Everyone who has half a brain also knows that we can't support da current Social Security, Medicare, Defence, and Veterans programs with a tax rate that predates most of da current forms of those programs." Well lets just look at these programs one at a time. Social Security, originally designed to pay for its self however was missed managed by congress by taking surplus out and using it else where because the numbers showed that the income was greater or equal to the out go. Now that projections show that the out go is going to be more than the income the rules get changed. Why, all because of mismanagement by congress. SSI was intended to supplement retirements of those who worked, not to provide money for disability programs, or to provide for those who don't work. The fix is simple put the money taken out of the program for other programs back and go back to what the original intent was. Medicare, a program payed into by those who work for the purpose of providing health care for retirees mostly because when one retires their health care from their employer retires with them. It pretty simple you pay into the program you get the benefit of the program at retirement age. The program was designed to pay for its self. However, the program has been changed to provide health care for anyone who needs no matter the age and no matter if you paid into the program. Fix is simple put the program back to the original intent, health care for retirees. Defense, necessary to maintain the freedoms provided to all citizens by the Constitution. That said there are lots of ares where spending cuts can be taken without effecting the pay or equipment provided to our military personal in order for them to accomplish their mission. Veterans, being a veteran it alway gets my dandruff up when people talk about cutting veteran benefits. While I will agree that there is areas where cuts could be made and where money could be saved. The people in this category have earned every benefit the have. They have put their own interests on hold in order to provide a society where all other can enjoy their interests, work at a job of their choosing, attend the church of their choice, speak their mind without repercussion, or just enjoy a picnic in their back yard. Then they come out of the service and find out that they can't get a job without further schooling, or they end up working for minimum wage. For instance a military person who was a plumber in the military can not get out of the military and start working a plumber without having to enter into an apprenticeship program. Why, because of state regulations and unions nor recognizing the education and experience the veteran received in the service. And just in case you are wondering in order to use the GI Bill a veteran member must have paid into the program while in the service, and they have ten years to use the program from the time they were discharged or they lose it. Also retired veterans have to pay for their health care for them and their families, unless it service related. Retirees with a disability don't get extra money they only get a portion of their retirement paid as non taxable income. Yes I'm taxed on my retirement income.

rdcrisco "The SM is not against OA, he just does not support it. He willing to let the scout to join OA, but doing the election is difficult since he does not control the troop." Not sure what you mean by "he does not control the troop." are you talking about the Scout or the Scout Master. rdcrisco "The Troop is LDS, so no Elections, the patrols are sort by age(11 years olds, 12 years olds)." What do you mean by "no Elections" while the youth leaders (SPL) are called/appointed by the CO IH. Other positions such as PL are usually elected by the youth. And elections for OA are always held, there is no other way. rdcrisco "The patrols meet different nights. The SM does not mind scheduling the election, but the other scouts will not show for one boy election." True, the 11 year old patrol or new scout patrol meets on a different night from the main troop (12 & 13 year olds) however for most OA elections in LDS units elections are held on the night the main troop meets and are only held with the 12 & 13 year old scouts. While the 11yrs could attend the elections they usually don't. In a properly ran LDS unit no 11 year old scout would met the guidelines for induction into the OA as they have not attended a long term camp at that age. Tell the SM to hold the election on the night the main troop meets. This would also me a good time for the Varsity Team to hold their election. Also while there may only be one boy who in voicing interest all eligible youth should have a chance to be elected then they (the youth) can decide to participate or not. My guess is the youth don't know what the OA is. This was the case for my boy until he went a worked at camp. At which time he learned what it was about, asked to have elections held and then went on to serve two years as the Lodge Chief. I would also contact the local Lodge and see if they could send some of the LDS youth and an LDS OA advisor in the lodge to conduct the elections and talk about the OA program. This way you have someone who knows the LDS program and can answer question on how the OA will supplement unit program. rdcrisco, "BTW my son is the only one in his patrol(age group)." My experience and guess would be that your son is in the 11 yr old scout patrol. This often happens at this time of year as the boy transition to the Young Men program from the Primary program when they turn 12 and join the main troop. And no ones moves up from the Webelos program due to birth dates being later in the year.

There a many problem associated with chartering a unit utilizing any of the elements of the OA. And in a properly ran OA Lodge I see no need for it. Our lodge bylaws were written (by adults) to allow dance teams and ceremony teams to register as crew. Written mostly for the dance team. Our dance team formed a crew, mostly to allow young ladies to join the team. This was due to the Dance Team advisor wanting his daughters to be part of the dance team, Yes they do participate in lodge dance team functions. But there are other reasons for doing this all negative in my opion. 1.) Members of the crew fulfill the requirement to be a registered member of a scout unit in order to keep your membership in the OA. Most of the adults on the team do not participate in any other unit thus making them OA only scouters. 2.) When the young ladies become the age of 21 they have been inducted into the OA as an adult. Yes this has happened even though a crew cannot hold elections and you have to hold an election in order for adults to be inducted. 3.) The Crew is not chartered under the lodge they have their own charter organization, made up of the adults of the team. However the lodge supports them with funding for equipment, ect.. To try a change this is bucking the "Good Ole Boys" net work. When my boy was the Lodge Chief he brought this problem up in the Key 3 meeting. He was wanting to get rid of the crew in order to get the crew members back into the spirit of the OA thus being service to the unit first. He was basically told to leave it alone. Note: Our Lodge advisor, Dance Team Advisor, Trading Post Advisor are some of the adults who maintain the scouting registration due under the Dance Team Crew.

Heating water in a galvanized tub is no problem. You only get the fumes when you go to a molting stage of the metal. Which is something you won't get from heating a tub of water no mater your heat source. If you can get enough heat from a wood fire to melt the tub you have a really hot fire and with water in the tub you will never get it that hot no matter how hard you try

CalicoPenn, "It is fairly rare but there are some church sponsors that are opposed to fraternal and masonic-like clubs and consider the OA to be on par with them so they just don't allow it." Interesting, what denominations would these church sponsors be?

CalicoPenn, "But unless that Scoutmaster tells you that it is the policy of the Chartered Organization not to participate in the OA (and there have been some that do not allow OA in their units)" While I have seen Scoutmasters opposed to participation in the OA because they fear the OA will take the boys away from the troop. This is the first where I have heard of a Chartered Organization having a policy against participation.

Just a note Bear Lake has very clear water. I have boated near the camp dive area and you can see the bottom well. Bear Lake also has a very sandy bottom much like ocean beaches. Its a very popular swimming and boating lake. While I'm sure there are deep area in the lake where the water could be dark from what I have seen the camps area is not like that. Although I don't know all the areas where the camp would dive. The question I have would be where was the boys dive buddy and why did the buddy not pay attention to where the boy was. A terrible lose that may have been prevented if the simple buddy system rule was followed. I just hope BSA doesn't freak out and come up with another safety rule just to make it look like they are doing something. Accidents happen.

Beavah,"If a domestic terrorist group headquartered in Omaha claims credit, do we carpet bomb Omaha?" Yes, "Support and defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic." (the oath of our armed forces, the president and congress) We don't need to carpet boom we have procession guided missiles and bombs that will take out any location with just GPS coordinates. Beavah, "If not, why not? Even if they weren't part of da terrorist group, surely some of da citizens of Omaha were somewhat sympathetic to the anti-government cause." There maybe some civilian casualties but for the most part they minimal with the weaponry we have today. Beavah, "Funny how the Lord of Hosts agreed He would not destroy Sodom if even 5 just men could be found there, yet we would destroy a city if only 5 unjust men are hiding there." No one said wipe out a city. Just not ask permission to go in and take action. We do have to me ready to accept some innocent casualties. Beavah, "Makes yeh stop and think, doesn't it? Perhaps, just maybe, we should behave a bit more like He who is the only real Superpower, eh?" Yea Ok I'll agree with you here. However terrorists are evil, I believe they are of the devil and we need to fight against evil. I don't think the Lord of Hosts expects us to just sit around and have our freedoms that he gave us taken away by evil people.

The big thing about terrorists is, they want everyone to know they are responsible for an event. This is how they gain creditability as a terrorist organization. That being said our(The US Of A)position should be if you take credit we take you out with a whole bunch of shock and awe. No matter where you are or what country you are in. And no we don't ask permission of the harboring country we just do. If your harboring terrorists you are part of the problem. We don't need ground forces to go in after the fact in order to stabilize the situation. We do it all with our Air Force and Navy from our own soil and ships. Its time we show the rest of the world that we are still the super power.

Just dual register with another Troop, Team or Crew and let them handle your advancement issues. That way you are still involved with your current troop and you don't have the hassle of having to deal with a unreasonable SM. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Hawkrod, I have to agree with Kudu your description of the purpose of the committee leads to the adults dictating to the youth on what they can and can't do. This is usually because the adults on the committee don't understand the program. Lots of committee's want to place restraints on the youth. Restraints like: Having to change SPL every 6 months. Having to put up the flags because the CO requires it. Why not just ask the youth 9 times out of 10 they will step up to the plate. There are many more things I'm sure that we could come up with. There is nothing done through the committee that could not be done by the youth. This includes BOD's, Finances, Special awards selection, Arranging for transportation, Filling out tour permits, Tracking advancement, and many more things. The bottom line most committees are made up of adults who want to control the program and dictate to the youth on what they can and can't do. Instead of serving in the role of advisors to help the youth succeed.