Gary_Miller

Program, Program, and more program. Its all about the program and how its delivered to the youth. Make sure there is a youth ran program. Make sure the PLC is trained, and have the tools needed to do the job. Make sure all the youth attend NYLT. Make sure your troop is holding yearly OA elections. Make sure your troop goes camping monthly. Make sure your troop attends a long term summer camp. Council camp for the younger patrols. High adventure activity for the older patrols. If a SM concentrates on ensuring there is a good troop program then advancement will just happen. Will every youth make eagle? No. However youth are more likely to make eagle if there is a outstanding program, and if they don't make eagle they at least end up with the skills needed to be outstanding adults and citizens. And thats what the whole purpose of the scouting program is all about.

Its to bad the SM is more concerned with a mistake/irresponsibility of some youth who are trying to do the right thing, but messed up. More than he is about ensuring the youth in his troop who may be deserving of the honor to join the honor society of the Boy Scouts. Get that chance to be elected and inducted, and make their own decision on whether they want to stay involved in the OA. We need to remember that the youth who run the OA are just youth learning and trying to be good Young Men and Leaders. They are not perfect. They make mistakes. But they strive to provide good service to others. But most importantly they are just Young Men trying to do their best.

Every CO in the BSA have the right to exercise local options to use the program the way their CO wants as long as they stay within the guidelines and policies set fourth by the Boy Scouts of America.

GernBlansten While I understand your concerns your argument is weak. Do to the facts that the LDS Church Policy to register all young men ages 8-15 in scouting has only been in effect since 1995. Before then parents or units (using fund raisers) paid for registration and we only registered young men who were active in the program, and the LDS Church still was the oldest CO, and still had the most units and the most registered members. The BSA is governed by the National Executive Board. Which makes and implements the policies of the BSA. The LDS Church is only one of many organizations and members who have a vote on the board.(This message has been edited by Gary_Miller)

I don't understand why the problem with the LDS church registering every youth who are on their membership rolls wither they are active in the church or not. Part of the mission of any church is to reach out to their membership and keep them active in the congregation. All the LDS church is doing is making sure that those inactive youth are registered so on the occasion where they may come on a camp out or another activity the youth is on the rolls and covered by the BSA and church insurance. It doesn't get any simpler than that. As for the gay and atheist question to the LDS church leaving BSA if the policy was changed. I have heard that statement but not from any church official who would have the authority of the church to make such a statement for the church. So for the most part I think its just speculation from individuals on what they think the LDS church would do. To add to that speculation I would ask why would the LDS Church, or any other church or organization, stay with or be a member of any organization where the moral values of that organization are not in-line with the organizations (LDS Church) values and teachings. However, since the people at making such big changes at the national level is the National Board of Directors which is made up of individuals and organizations who believe in the current values of the BSA. I doubt such a change as the so called "local option" is going to happen any time soon. Speaking for myself. If the "local option" does happen. This Scouter will be among the many who will leave the organization. If that makes me bias, so be it.

It seems many here don't like the relationship the LDS church has with the BSA. Exactly what is it you don't like about the relationship, and why?

It seems to me that this discussion is starting to turn into LDS bashing, and obvious that some members of this site are very much anti LDS. While you may have your own personal views about the LDS doctrine this is not the place for that discussion. This discussion is about the LDS church and its Relationship with the Boy Scouts of America. If you all continue in choosing to take this tread in the direction it is heading. I will choose to not participate. If you honestly want to know about scouting in the LDS church and it relationship with BSA I will do my best to answer your questions. You choose. GernBlansten, Why would a supporter of BSA even participate in the web site you posted is beyond reason. shortridge, I have to leave and will be gone for a couple of days when I return I will try and answer your questions.

BP, I agree that there is a large number on paper that don't attend any meetings at all. A couple of years ago Pres Delquest then General YM president said that the church was losing 70% of their YM by the time they turn 16. Just like Scout Troops we lose them to other interests or they just no longer want to attend. Pres. Delquest placed the blame on the lack of good scouting units at the ward level and encouraged the local leaders to select men to scouting leader positions who have a 1)Testimony of the church. 2)Time to do the program. 3)Trained in the program. and 4)Tenure, and he spelled Tenure, TEN YEAR. I think he was right in order to retain YM there must be a good unit program in order to have a good program, a unit need strong leaders who are dedicated to the program and the youth. It is also my experience that most YM who say they don't like scouting is because they have never really experienced a properly ran scouting program. What they have experienced is a program centered around earning MBs. If a unit has a good program centered on the purpose and aims of scouting. YM will come be cause it will be fun. As for ghost scouts. I really don't think the number is a high as some would like to believe. For instance in our just in our YM program (12-18) we only have 2 YM who on our charter who don't come to any meetings including church on Sunday.While some units may have more I think for the most part LDS units don't charter them if they don't come at all. For the most part since the charter and registration fees are paid out of moneys from tithe payers most Bishops and Stake Presidents try to be good stewards and would not register a youth who is not attending any meeting. As for Stakes looking good with the numbers of registered scouts I don't know of that number ever being reported to Church Head Quarters at the ward or stake level.

Could be I don't know much about the UM Church and how they use scouting. But as far as the LDS Church using scouting as the activity arm for their YM ages 8-18. Can you think of a better program to use?

In my opion SMs and ASMs should not be passing off merit badges for youth in their troop with the exception of Camping and Cooking MB. And were its ok for a parent to sign of a merit badge this should be the exception not the norm. For example if the parent is the counselor for a MB being offered at a MB Pow-Wow/clinic and the parent is on staff at the Pow-Wow then it would be except able for the parent to sign off the merit badge. Or if the parent was the only one in the area with the skills to be the counselor then that would be except able.

GernBlansten, "While I will agree with you that the LDS charters the most units, they are not the majority of registered scouts by a long shot. This is one of my pet peeves" If you check your facts from last years annual report. You will find that not only does the LDS have the largest number of units, they also have the largest number of registered youth. I will say though by proportion of units and youth. The United Methodist Church has more youth in comparison to then number of units. I think I said that right. Here the link. http://www.scouting.org/About/FactSheets/operating_orgs.aspx

BadenP, in some councils the stake will give the council a roster of youth so they can check to see that everyone registered. After all at council level its all about the number. However, there still needs to be an individual application filled out for each boy.

OldGreyEagle, I think you misunderstood what I was saying so lets look at it from a different point of view. Only take the LDS Church out of the picture, and answer the following questions. In any organization who should have the most influence on what happens within the organization. The person/organization who has been involved the longest, brings in the most membership, and provides the most financial support? Or The person/organization who has been involved the least amount of time, brings in the least membership, and provides the least financial support? Now lets look at your district committee. If ran properly each CO of the district has one vote. Every CO gets to give input. The exception is that due to the way one organization is structured they have a higher percent of COs. If a situation comes up where the distric has to vote on an important issue pertaining to the distric which way do you think the vote will go? Don't forget each CO only has one vote on the committee? The the organization that is structured with only one CO would like it to go? or The way the organization that is structured with multiple COs would like it to go? Who do you think has the most influence on your council BOD. The OA Lodge Chief or the person/organization who has donated the most money? I'll give you a hint it's not the OA Lodge Chief even though he is the only youth on the BOD. I hope I explained it well enough. If not ask questions and I'll try and explain it better.

skeptic, "Yep; God, family, school all come first if a conflict happens and can not be solved." LOL, my son would say God, Duck Hunting, Scouting Unit, Order of Arrow, family, then school if he has to.

Eagle92, and so it should be since the LDS is the oldest CO (1913), has the highest number of units, the largest number of members, and is the largest contributor of funds. As far as the Varsity program. If you read the SM Handbook you will find that the Venture Patrol should be structured using the Varsity materials. And where the Varsity Program was structured around what the LDS Church wanted for the age group 14-15, and is mostly used by the LDS Church. The program is available for any CO who chooses to use. However, if a CO used the program as intended we would run in to the same problems we currently have between Troops and Venture programs. SM would be crying about the program taking away their youth. The whole purpose of the program is to offer something different for CO to use for their youth, which is what the LDS church wanted.

jhankins, "Even if things are properly run, there are still things that are different. They just aren't big deals to most people" Your not getting off that easy. If the unit is properly ran according to BSA policies and guidelines. What have you seen that is different? jhankins, "(Although I still think Scouting functions and travel on Sundays should be a go)." What about the BSA policy of charter organizations being able to set guidelines for their units. In this case the LDS Church has decided its best for their youth to be home on Sundays so they can attend church with their families and fulfill their church duties. Its a decision made by the CO for their units.

jhankins, "That being said, I ran a report by award for my council in 2008, and not one boy in my council has a recorded Denali Award. It's a shame, really." It is a shame and is generally is because program focus is more on BS advancement instead of the Varsity program. So much of the program is centered around advancement and obtaining the Eagle Scout Rank instead of providing a good program where advancement just happens.

BadenP, it not that I disagree with the hierarchy in church. Its just that I know what is taught coming out of Church Headquarters in Salt Lake City Utah. And I know that some Stakes and Ward leaders don't always know or follow the program the way its intended to be done, usually because of the lack of training and understanding of how a Boy Scout unit is to run. There is no difference in a properly ran LDS program as there is in a properly ran non-LDS program. The BSA program and guidelines are the same for both units. I know this because I have been apart of both LDS and non-LDS units in different parts of the world (retired Military).

Eagle92,"Now in reference to LDS changing the program due to financial contributions, I was told by several sources that the sole reason why Varsity Scouts were created was for LDS units." I would not disagree with this at all. As the church at the time Varsity Scouts was created was looking for a program that would interest youth in the age range of 14-15 who are mostly interested in sports. Varsity Scouting is a sports/high adventure based program. Which also allows YM to still work toward their Eagle Award. Done properly the Varsity program teaches YM how to plan, carry out and conduct sport type actives. And since the LDS church is the oldest and largest chartered organization in BSA. Why shouldn't they have input on the various BSA programs. Eagle92,"And those sources consisted of pros at PDl-1 and an LDS pro I went through PDL-1 with." What is PDL-1? I have never heard that term.

NJCubScouter, "It is my understanding that EVERY LDS youth is enrolled in Scouting, whether they want to be or not. Is this true? Is there any consequence if, once enrolled, they do not participate? Or in other words, which sounds like a strange question, are you allowed to quit? In my troop we have the annual pre-charter exercise of going through the roster and picking out boys who have disappeared, haven't paid their dues, etc., contacting them, and then if they have quit or seem to have quit, crossing them off the charter. Does this same thing happen in LDS units?" I would have to say "it depends" on the unit. In my unit we charter every young man on our church roster wither they are active in the church or not. This is do to the on going responsibility to try and activate the those who are in active in the unit. The reasoning is if we charter them and they decide to come to a meeting or on and outing at the least they are covered as a member of the unit for insurance purposes. Besides that the church pays the registration fee and we don't charge our youth dues in order to participate.

BadenP "No MISINFORMATION was given out, you can not deny that the LDS's primary use of the scouting program is to prepare their young men for ministry and going on a mission at 18," While as LDS we have a goal that all young men go on a mission and we prepare our young men to serve in the church. I would disagree that the primary purpose of the LDS church in using the scouting program is to that end. The primary purpose is to produce young men who can be strong productive citizens of their communities. BadenP "this was told to me by an LDS president and two bishops," Then I would have to say these men did not fully understand the purpose of the scouting program and the churches use of the program. Which does not surprise me in the least. BadenP "and that in my opinion is a misuse of the scouting program that your church has been allowed to alter to meet these goals." Alter? Where has the LDS church been allowed to alter the program outside what is allowed by BSA policy on a charter organizations use of the scouting programs?

Engineer61, "1) Extremely low participation by minorities in the region...none in the LDS-based troops. Even though the local population is 40% non-Caucasian." Your point would be? It only stand to reason that since the LDS units are usually made up of only youth in their local ward that Non-LDS would not be part of the troop. That being said it has nothing to do with people being minorities. If non-lds youth want to join the troop no one would stop them in fact the church would pay their registration costs and fund their activities just like they do for LDS youth. Engineer61, "2) Attempts to indoctrinate Christian but non-LDS scouts to LDS." Last I looked LDS people were also Christians. And since the LDS feel strongly about their beliefs so much that they seen young men all over the world on missions. Why would they not want to teach their beliefs to their friends and neighbors as well. This would include youth who attend their meetings and youth programs. No different than any other church. Engineer61, "3) Warning that I have received from parents of the LDS allowing known sex offenders into the BSA troops as leaders. (We know about Oregon.)" All rummer and lies. If a person is a CONVICTED sex offender they are not allowed to work with youth in any capacity in the church. The key word is convicted. Accused is not convicted. This is still America innocent until proven guilty(This message has been edited by Gary_Miller)

BadenP, while I won't argue that the LDS is BSAs largest contributor, as well as oldest charter organization. I have to disagree that they have altered any BSA program what so ever. Since you feel different would please ex-plane where the program has been changed due to the LDS financial contributions. They have however used the program as the activity arm for their young mens program to help them become strong young men in our society. BadenP "I have a copy of one of the LDS scouting publications stating the exact same thing." Please provide the name and date of the publication.

Actually "qwazse", "bacchus" 7 points are very accurate when it comes to the LDS scouting program. As an LDS scout leader of 27yrs, I would like to add to add some more incite, and will try to stay away from using terms unique to the church. The LDS church has what is called a Young Mens program which is made up young men ages 12 - 17, which uses the Boy Scout program as their activity program and has since 1913. The program is further broken down into three groups, 12-13, 14-15, and 16-17 each or these groups are boy lead and boy ran under adult advisors. Each of these groups have their own separate programs. 12-13 is a Scout Troop, 14-15 is a Varsity Team, and 16-17 is a Venture Crew. Its been my experience that any problems encountered with LDS units is due to leaders not taking the time to learn the program and implement it correctly within the guidelines of the chartered organization (the LDS Church) and the Boy Scouts of America. Over the years I have heard many scouters, LDS and non LDS, say that the problems are usually due to the way the leaders are selected. However, I don't think it is. Because the leaders of LDS units and Non-LDS units are both selected by leaders of the CO. That is they are selected and asked by someone within the CO under authority of the CO to serve in the position. The person being asked also has the right to turn down the request to serve, and leaders in both kinds of units serve at the pleasure of the CO. The biggest problems I have seen is leaders not taking the time to get trained in their position, and not running the program the way it was intended by the Boy Scouts Of America. Leaders from the IH down to the ASM who don't think it important to do the program properly. Leaders who try an reinvent the wheel instead of using it properly. And I see these problems in every unit that is having problems LDS and Non-LDS.

After reading though the last page of this thread its seems their are a few scouter's here that don't understand the relationship between the BSA and the LDS church. I would suggest you learn more about that relationship before you go about providing miss information. As an LDS scouter, 27yrs as a scout leader, I can assure you that the LDS church does all it can to protect the youth in all programs of the church, and always have. You also have to understand that while there are some unfortunate things that have happened over the years in the BSA program, the LDS church and other chartered organizations. I don't believe it was the intention of any of the leaders in these organizations intent to cover up and dismiss the problems. Its quite the opposite most organizations have taken action to fix the problems. It has not been very long ago where the two deep leadership was not required and youth protection training was not in place. Yet even with these two things in place there will still be those that slip trough the cracks and unfortunate until found a youth may be harmed. Thats why its so important that as leaders we make sure that YP is a priority in our units and that no meeting or outing is ever conducted with out two deep leadership in place.