Gary_Miller

duplicate posting (This message has been edited by Gary_Miller)

The only time the distinction is necessary is during the Vigil selection process. Per OA Handbook Under "Vigil Honor". "Because the Order of the Arrow is primarily an organization for youth, it is suggested that, in recommending candidates for the Vigil Honor, preference be given to those who became members of the order as Scouts rather than to those who were inducted into the Order as adult volunteers or professional Scouters."

Eagle92, "Also the OA is now considered "Scoutings National Honor Society," and Venturing is part of Scouting." Venturing, while a program of the BSA, is not a part of the Scouting program.

I don't think the rule should be changed. With in BSA there are several programs. Cub Scouts Boy Scouts Varsity Scouts Venturing Although they are part of the Boy Scouts of America. They each have their own purpose and traditions and operate separate of each other. The Venturing program is a separate program all its own. And while there are many great people in the program it needs to stand alone. In my lodge there has been many past abuses of this policy. Allowing adult Venture advisors to be nominated and selected. Our dance team formed a Venturing Crew just so girls can be on the team, mostly because the Dance Team advisor had girls, once the girls turned 21 they became Venturing Crew committee members and were nominated and selected into the OA. Now explane to me how this happens since there can not be unit elections in a crew. I'm currently working to stop this abuse that has been excepted by the Lodge Advisor. Its and up hill battle but I have the OA Guide books on my side and it mostly educating those who choose to not read, learn , or adhere to OA policy. We need to preserve the traditions of each of the different programs within BSA. OA elections within Troops and Teams, which are both part of the Boy Scout program, is one of those traditions that needs to be preserved.

I think this says it all. OA Operations Update 98-10 NEW VENTURING PROGRAM OF THE BSA Venturing is a new youth development program of the Boy Scouts of America for young men and women who are 14 (and have completed the eighth grade) through 20 years of age. Venturing crews specialize in a variety of avocation or hobby interests. Venturing programs are developed around six experience areas of emphasis. The National Order of the Arrow Committee currently has no plans of conducting OA elections in Venturing crews. The Order is a program element of the Boy Scout program only, as it has been for 83 years. OA Operations Update 99-2 UNIT ELECTIONS TO BE HELD IN TROOPS AND VARSITY TEAMS ONLY Since its beginning in 1915, the Order of the Arrow has been a program of Boy Scouting. When it became the official honor camping program of the Boy Scouts of America in 1948, it was linked to Boy Scouting. In the 1974 reorganization of the BSA, the national Order of the Arrow committee became a subcommittee of the national Boy Scout committee. Today, after 84 years of existence, the Order of the Arrow continues to be a service and program arm of Boy Scouting. Although its members have and continued to provide service and support to Cub Scouting, Exploring in the past, and now the new Venturing program, its roots have always been in the Boy Scout program. A few volunteer Scouters in the Boy Scouts of America have asked why OA unit elections are not permitted in Venturing Crews. Crews are not authorized to conduct elections for two major reasons: 0 The Order of the Arrow is a program for Boy Scouts and Varsity Scouts between the ages of 11 - 18. If that Boy Scout policy changes, the Order would readily welcome venturers into the Brotherhood of Cheerful Service. 0 Venturers do not earn the First Class rank of the Boy Scouts of America, a key membership requirement that must be met before a Boy Scout or Varsity Scout is eligible for election into the Order of the Arrow. If anyone would like additional information about the Orders unit election policy, please contact Clyde Mayer, OA Director, at the national BSA office.972-580-2440.

All good activities but what are you doing to Celebrate Freedom?

BS WB taught me the proper way a troop and a patrol should function. It gave me the skills and confidence needed to teach the youth the proper way to organize a troop and the ability to let the youth be in charge of the troop. I learned how to sit back and just watch things happen. Since BS WB I have been relax at camp and not worry about what the guys are doing. I have taken many more naps at camp after Wood Badge than I did before. A couple of years after I attended BS WB. I was serving on the district as the CS Round Table Commissioner. So I attended CS Train the Trainer Wood Badge. Which again gave me the skills and confidence needed to train adults. I have never regretted attending either WB Course. They both made me a better leader than I was before. They gave me the skills and confidence needed to train others in their positions.

OldGreyEagle, Venturing Crew would be the term I meant to use. Maybe that was some of the confusion.

desertrat77, "The thought of rehashing this, or something like it, in a camp mess hall for two weekends is more than I can bear." The thought of a young man not having the best trained leader possible is something that I find hard to understand. Especially coming from a someone with your background. Who should understand the importance of being well trained. desertrat77,"I wish WBers and candidates all the best, but at this point in life, 1 day with my family is more valuable." I understand how one can feel this way. However, in the end it will be a benefit to your family as well. desertrat77,"If this makes me a bad scouter, and a bad person, then I shall somehow stumble through life anyhow, in my ignorant, unwashed, and unbeaded state." I don't think it makes you a bad scouter or a bad person. However, the experience one has at WB will change your life for ever and will make you a better leader. Which in turn makes for better Youth lead programs, which leads to better trained scouts, which in turn leads to better citizens, employees, and Fathers. WB is not about you it about all the youth you come in contact with through your scouting service.

moosetracker "No I was describing both.. Since he wants to convince a SM to accept it, can you say he is not trying to form it within the troop?" I can only suppose that since he said "Venture Crew". That they are wanting to form a separate unit since that is what a Venture Crew is. I would guess it with in the same CO as the troop and the SM is against it because he is afraid the Venture Crew will pull some of the older scouts away from the troop program. moosetracker "The top suggestions are for a Crew or Patrol that is part of a troop.. The bottom suggestions are for a Crew separate from the troop." A crew is never part of a troop. A "Venture Patrol" is part of the troop and if done correctly uses the "Vasity Team" program, high adventure. moosetracker "I may not know about what you call Venture patrols (as they dont need their adult leaders to get Venture training).." A venture patrol is a patrol for the older boys in the troop it focuses on high adventure activities. See the SM handbook for more information. moosetracker "But I do know about Venture Crews that are run in a troop, the boys may form a Venture patrols except they register separate as a crew of the same charter org as the troop.." Venture Crews are always a stand alone unit and never part of the troop. Although a CO may have charter a Venture Crew as well as a Scout Troop or a Varsity Team. moosetracker "When they do, they need to register some committee members & crew advisors (which sometimes are the same as the SM & the troop committee members).." A Venture Crew has a Crew Advisor and its own committee which functions more as program advisors to the youth in leadership positions. moosetracker "I also know because they do this they could go for venture awards (but they normally dont)" A well ran Venture Crew focuses on venturing awards. Which are very detailed and take some work to accomplish. And while any youth who has earned 1st Class Scout can work towards his eagle usually in a crew he is on his own. Thats why I suggest any youth working on Eagle also duel enroll in a scout troop as well. moosetracker "and they could work different positions with the committee members being their adult mentors (some do, some dont)." A well ran crew has the youth fully in charge "Driving the Car" with adult advisors giving advise from the sidelines. moosetracker "The one we had was separate," As they should be. moosetracker "and then when they started to fail they wanted to become a Crew as described above. But, the troop had had their fill of them, so they went under." That would be patrol not crew. Of course they went under since it sounds like it was improperly organized from the beginning. moosetracker "As far as I have seen, age can vary in both.. from 13 to 21.." A crew is usually 14 through 20 year old youth. Although there was a recent change for grade level. I think it 14 or graduated the eight grade. moosetracker "I have seen some very mature patrols running from event to event at a Spring or Fall camporee. They are usually hysterical, because they act like big kids, but still can carry it off with more polish.." A patrol is in a troop and can not have anyone older than 17. Once they turn 18 they can no longer be a Boy Scout. What you probably saw at the camporee was a Venture Crew. Although it could of been a "Venture Patrol" made up of the older boys in the troop.

moosetracker, what you discribed is a venture patrol with in the troop. Not a Venture Crew. A crew is a totally seprate unit from the troop. A crew has their own program altogether. A crew does not need a troop to be successful. On the other hand a crew can be a plus to other scouting units if allowed to. Crew usually have more experienced and mature youth involved, who are usually more than willing to step up to the plate and serve.

JoeBob "Is there any reason at all I should take Wood badge?" I will answer this by remarking to you other remarks. JoeBob "I think y'all may have curtailed my interest in Wood badge." I hope by the end of my remarks you will change your mind. JoeBob "I'm being recruited to take Wood badge, and I'm pretty sure that it's not worth six days of my life. With time being finite, I believe that those 6 days, plus ticket time, would be better spent with my pack and family." I believe as a Scout Leader and Parent that the six days your attend WB will be that "better time spent" for your Pack and your Family. The information, training, friendships and awakening you get from WB will make a difference in your relationship with your wife, children and scouting service. JoeBob "My resume: Eagle Scout at 15," Lofty achievement but does not make one a great leader. The is more to being an adult Scout Leader than what you learned as a Boy Scout. WB will give you the knowledge needed to become an adult Scout Leader. JoeBob "commercial whitewater guide for 6 summers," Ok so you know how to take responsibility for a group of people you don't know for longer then a couple of hours. But can you take a group of youth and turn them in to leaders of youth? WB will help you do that. JoeBob "NCO in 2nd Ranger BN," Good for you and I thank you for your service. However, I went to WB for the first time under the encouragement of my Chief of Operations, an Major in the USAF. He told me he wished that all his NCOs could have the training that WB has to offer. It was much better than attending Air Force Leadership School. He was not wrong. (Retired MSgt USAF, 1981-2002) JoeBob "played in the corporate world long enough to see through Tony Robbins and appreciate Ken Blanchard." WB will give you leadership skills that you can never learn in the corporate world. JoeBob "Now I've a son rising to Webelos I and I'll be CM for the next two years." You will be a much better CM with the training you will receive in WB. JoeBob "I'll move through scouting with my son, and probably will not be involved any longer than he." Not if you attend WB you will want to be involved for life. You will want to be buried in your scout uniform. But then maybe being hooked for life is what your afraid of. JoeBob "We have a healthy pack of 80 with a good committee and a complete program." After WB you will have an outstanding pack and a better program, because you will have gotten scouting fever. JoeBob "Is there any reason at all I should take Woodbadge?" Because you want to be the best leader for the boys that you can. Because you want to be able to provide the best program you can for the boys. Because as an Eagle Scout you know that you should learn and do all you can to have a positive influence on the world. What better way than being a trained experienced adult leader. And most important because you want to be a better husband and father. JoeBob "The only element that interests me in all of your discussions is the running of a 'Volunteer Organization'." The only element that should interest you is the ability to help a "Young Man" grow in to a "Capable Adult and Father". WB will help you do that. JoeBob "Thanks for all the useful insight provided in this thread. I'm chewing on it..." The chewing time it over it time to swallow and get it done. Good luck with your Wood badge course. Now go do the right thing.(This message has been edited by Gary_Miller)

Put her on the committee she sounds like someone who just wants to be involved and will do just about anything you need done with in reason. Ask her what she wants to do and then let her do it with the knowledge that she has the backing of the other members of the committee. Every committee chair prays for a person like this. Just don't take advantage and burn her out.

This is defiantly a YP issue. While boys do pee in the woods its inappropriate at a camp with latrines to do so. "The boys got freer with their language by the end of Day 2. They'd begun to sing made-up songs about "the CubMaster's booty," and take an occasional swing at his rear." This is also a YP issue. Its in appropriate for boys and adults to touch each other in this way. If it covered by a swim suit its off limits. The songs and skits crosses the gray area of whats appropriate for songs and skits. This should be reported to the COR, COIH, and the SE. Even if it only one person who saw it and even if everyone around you will be mad at you. As for leaving the unit, one could do that and it would be better for them. However, the problem will still be their and boys will continue to be effected by the inappropriate behavior. Its better to stay and go to work solve the problem. Get the CM removed even if it means you stepping up to the plate and taking the position of CM. Running won't help the boys in the unit. Not saying anything is the same as you condoning the activity. NOW GO DO THE RIGHT THING AND GO DO IT TODAY. (This message has been edited by Gary_Miller)

I don't see why you have to convince the SM. If the CO wants to charter a VC and they have the leadership available to do so then they should just go ahead and do it. Its not the SM decision to make.

The purpose of the MB program is for a scout to learn something. The only job the SM has in the MB program is to give the youth a signed blue card with the name of a qualified counselor. Its not to make sure the boy has the skills to earn the badge. Its the counselors responsibility to make sure the scout has the skills needed to complete the badge. This is done though the scout learning the subject under the watchful eye of the experienced counselors directions and teaching. Its the boys responsibility to do whats required to earn the MB. This is usually done by learning whats needed and then doing it.

I find that teaching shotgun shooting is easier with those who know nothing about rifle shooting or who have never shot a gun. Shotgun shooting is an entirely different sport. Takes a whole different mind set as well as different shooting fundamentals. Those who have never shot don't have any bad habits to over come.

Make sure you pitch your tent so it will be in the shade in the afternoon, for you daily NAP.

On my grave Scouts can dance, sing, build a campfire, play game, what ever they want. And I will just look down at them and smile knowing that they are and what they will become from the scouting program.(This message has been edited by Gary_Miller)

Once you have it set up its not to bad. The first time is very time consuming having to set up training and transportation. After that it goes much better. Also use Microsoft explorer and not Firefox, it does not work well with fire fox. The important thing is to have all the information up front, including the email for the leaders. While it bulky at times it only take over night to have a permit returned and a copy is sent to all the email who is on the permit as well as the one issuing the permit.

From GTSS "Cub Scouting Standards Youth members of Cub Scouting are permitted to participate in the shooting activities named in here only. Archery and BB gun shooting are restricted to day camps, Cub Scout/Webelos Scout resident camps, council-managed family camping programs, or to council activities where there are properly trained supervisors and all standards for BSA shooting sports are enforced. Archery and BB gun shooting are not to be done at the pack level. Cub Scouts are not permitted to use any other type of handgun or firearm." It seems pretty clear. Nothing said about Council Sanctioned or Council ran, but specific activities. As far as "council activities" that would be activities put on at the council level. Trained or not a "Pack" cannot do Archery and BB gun shooting at the pack level nor can a District except as stated above.

moosetracker"If they think SM and CC go to roundtable for each unit they are sadly mistaken. Since SM & CC have enough to do, we send a representative." It seems that this unit does not understand the purpose of Roundtables. Roundtables, is not just a place to get information on Council and District events. In fact this is secondary to the purpose of Roundtables. The primary purpose to Roundtables is to provide monthly training in different areas of the program. And every adult leader in the unit should attend. However, the most disturbing part of this post is that the SM and CC don't attend Roundtable. Would it be safe guess that the CO does not attend the District Committee Meeting either?

moosetracker "Bacchus - our troop takes both the scouts and the council portions of the blue card. We were in 3 troops, all 3 did it the same way. One part went to council, the other part was returned to the scout with the Merit badge during the COH." Since when did council get any portion of the MB blue Card. All that is required for council is an Advancement Form. The MB Blue Card is distributed one part counselor's record, one part Unit's record, and one part Scout's record. No scout should ever be made to give up his portion of the record. The MB Blue Card is his proof of earning the MB. At the COH the scout should receive the MB patch and a certificate.

Contact the Council office in which the Military Installation is located. More than likely they will have the Scout Liaisons point of contact.

Send and E-mail to the National OA Chief with the suggestion.