Gary_Miller

SR540Beaver; "A neighboring council came for $1800. However, they spent 27 hours on a bus driving straight thru and went minimalist in their gear to get it all on the bus........They slept on the ground for 10 days in Eureka Timberline tents and their flies were basically tarps with four lightweight poles. The guided their own touring." Finally a council that gets it. Of course they could of cut the cost more if they went with $40 Ozark tents, instead $150 Eureka Timberline tents. SR540Beaver; "BSA standards call for 32 sq ft of space per boy for long term camping and sleeping up off the ground if I recall correctly." I've never heard of this please point us in the right direction on where to find this information.

BDPT00: "*** Just in case someone is trying to learn something about Varsity Scouting, the above information is totally inaccurate and should be ignored." BDPT00, actually as an LDS scouter I find, Eagle92's, description of Varsity Teams quite accurate. While any CO can charter a Varsity Team the program was created at the request of the LDS church in order to have a separate program for their YM ages 14-15. The program was centered around sports and its purpose was to have something that would keep that age group engaged in scouting with a program that that age seemed to enjoy. Its that age group where we start to lose YM to sports and other activities. BDPT00, if you have other information then lets here it instead of making broad unproductive statements.

CBell87;"Hey everyone! I am a Brotherhood member at Unami Lodge. (Scouts Honor!) unfortunately, I lost my hand book for the OA. Could any one please send me the info on getting onto the jump-start web site? Thank you so much. :-)" Sounds like it time to purchase a new book.

I'm with a LDS unit and our whole committee is women.

I'm not in Montana but I know that there is only one Council in the whole state. As far as women scouters in LDS units. I know lots of women scouters in LDS units and many who serve at district level as well. LDS units require that men serve in the SM positions and women don't participate in camp-outs. But women serve quite well in committee postions. However, I'm sure you will find many non-LDS scouting units as well. Good luck with your move, and if your an OA member maybe we will meet at a SOAC or something.(This message has been edited by Gary_Miller)

I would call the new CC and let them know that you have stuff in your garage that belongs to the pack. I would give them a reasonable date to come and get it. At which time I would consider it unwanted property to be disposed of as I please. Remember though it in the middle of summer the pack is in the process of reorganizing after the breakup and it may take sometime to figure out where to store the stuff. So be far and give them a reasonable time table.

According to "The SPL Handbook", the SPL is elected by the troop. "All youth members of the troop are eligible to vote." According to "The PL Handbook", the members of the patrol elect the PL. The PL appoints the APL and other positions within the patrol. If the PL is no longer available to hold that position the the patrol should elect a new PL.

boomerscout; "Sure, why not? Patrol members elect their APL and PL. And, PLC elects the SPL Potential SPLs are already known throughout the troop, and are subject to recall for heading really boring program" There are only two elected positions with in a troop, the SPL and the PL. All other positions are appointed by the SPL and the PL.

OGE,I don't disagree with what you are saying. Yes a youth can be removed by the unit leaders for not fulfilling his leadership responsibilities. We don't want youth advancing just because they held a POR in name only. However before a Scout is removed the SM needs to ensure he has fulfilled his responsibility of making sure the Scout has the ALL the necessary tools and to encourage the Scout to be successful trough coaching and mentoring. If can be very frustrating to a Scout if he is not given the knowledge, skills, and encouragement he must have to fulfill his leadership assignment. Its even more frustrating if he has been given the knowledge, and skills through training and then is not allowed to exercise them the way he sees fit. Far to many SM give the Scouts the responsibility but fail to give them the authority to act. The Scouts must have both the responsibility and the authority if they are to succeed in their leadership assignments. OldGreyEagle, "Yes the Scoutmaster is in the car alright. He is the Driving Instructor and as such has an auxillary brake he can hit If he has to" I disagree. The SM is there as an Advisor not an Instructor, there is a difference. In a good SM and SPL relationship the SPL is free to not follow the advice of the SM and go in a totally different direction than the SM would/wants to go, as long as its in the goals setup by the PLC. How the SPL gets there is not important as long as he gets there. The only time the SM should hit the auxiliary brake is if the SPL is heading off in a direction which is unsafe or against BSA policy. shortridge; "If you prefer to take a softer approach, sit down with this young man before your next troop meeting. Ask him point-blank if he thinks he can hold the respect of the troop and his patrol leaders after his behavior at summer camp. Ask him if he would accept such behavior from one of the PLs or another Scout. He'll soon come around to realize that he can't do the job anymore." While it is true he may have to work at regaining the respect of the PLC and the troop which may mean an open discussion, apology with the whole troop, and maybe a vote of confidence for him to retain his position. I don't think its fare to say he "can't do the job anymore" since he has yet been trained in what the job entails.

Eagle92;"Playing Devil's Advocate, so bear with me, but wear does it say that an SM can NOT remove a SPL? I think the key to remember is that we cannot be so bogged down into rules and regulations, that common sense cannot be used. There is a time and a place for everything." I don't think you will find anything that says a SM can or cannot remove a youth from their leadership position. And your right we cannot be so bogged down in rules and regulations that common sense cannot be used. That being said "Common Sense" says that only those who appoint to an elected position (or their elected representatives, PLC) are the only ones who can remove anyone from their position. Eagle92; "Yes the role of a SM is to counsel and mentor, but he is ultimately responsible for the safety and well being of the troop, both youth and adults, and not just the SPL." Your correct it is the SM responsibility to ensure the safety of all concerned. However, from what has been described I don't see a safety problem. I see a frustrated young man, who vented like young men will do at times. Like I said before my bet would be that all the adults where giving this young man orders and directions on what needed to be done. It may even be that when the SPL did not do what the adult directed or expected that some form or verbal admonishment was dished out by the adults. All this possibly could have be avoided if SM had a pre-camp breakdown meeting with the PLC or at the least the SPL the night before on what needed to happen to get pack-up and on the road. The young man took all he could then like many young men he vented. So whats the first thing the adults want to do? They want to fire the SPL, when much of the problem was possible/probably adult caused. But we all know the adults are never wrong. The SM is the passenger in the car. The passengers job is to help the driver arrive safely at the destination with the car in tack. The passenger does this my offering advise and pointing out obstacles in the way that may cause problems or damage.

SPL is an elected position, elected by the youth, therefor he can only be remove by the youth. For those of you who think other wise please show me where it says the SM can remove a youth from his youth elected position Its the SM job to mentor and advise the SPL in his duties. Its not the ASM job it only the SM. When other adults start advising the SPL then the youth gets confused. No adult should be telling the SPL what to do or what needs done they should only give advise. SM need to understand that the SPL may or may not take their advise, the SPL has that option. While I was not there so I don't know what really happened, I can only guess that the SPL was being bombarded by orders and directions. Coming from all directions, coming from all the adults on what needed to get done. The young man got frustrated with being TOLD what to do instead of being advised by the SM on what needed to be done. So I suggest the SM don't fire the SPL, mostly because he can't. But the SM should take the SPL out for a Frosty, and talk about the problems find out what the SPL's feeling about the incident is and what needs to be done to correct the problems. Let the boy know your there to support and help him not to push him around and hound him. Let him know that he is the leader and that he reports to know one but you. You have to let the SPL drive the car. It does not matter what direction he goes as long as he ends up in the right place (think goals).

moosetracker; "As stated some Boards just refuse to be "re-trained".. They consider themselves right, and the recommendation to change is just another example of BSA getting soft on it's basic principles and allowing anyone who shows up and has a heart beat to pass." I don't think its so much refusing to be "re-trained" as much as it not being trained properly in the first place. moosetracker; "Before the EBOR the scout must meet with the district to have their project approved. Our troop REQUIRES the scout to do a dry run of that which involves the whole committee. That one can be brutal as the whole committee will pick it apart for saftey issues, cost analysis, a realistic view on the time, and people to make the project happen. A good narrative and visuals in presenting the project clearly. If the scout gets through the committee with this the presentation to the District board is a breeze." Finally something that I agree with. Its the Troop committees responsibility to review the the project proposal before it goes to the district. However, from your description it sounds like the committee is doing some over kill. moosetracker; "Even with this issue the board is not being black & white. They went to his religious reference for some clarifications, (Which was still kindof fuzzy) but two of the three are ready to pass him with the belief that he is not an atheist just currently in "search" of his beliefs and unable to clearly define them. The third is very black and white and has yet to respond. If he doesn't pass him, I am sure he will be recommended for an arbitration and the arbitry committee will be advise of the two to one vote in his favor and why. The District board would like it to be fixed at District, but the vote to approve must also be unanimous of all 3 on the board." This sounds crazy. Its not the BOR responsibility to determine if the young man has a belief in a higher power. This should of already been determined by the SM during his SM conference. And I don't understand this "Yet to respond". A decision is suppose to be made at the time of the BOR not weeks or days after. If an unanimous decision is not reached, the applicant must be informed of his options for appealing the decision and the proper process of appeal, from page 33 in the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual.

moosetracker; "They recommend that at the higher ranks (Star & Life) you ask someone from the District to sit on the board of review.. In order for the boy to get use to strange people at their review, and for the District to give some questions that may be formated more towards what the District Board will ask." Troop Committee responsibility. No District participation allowed. moosetracker; "Coming to the District Board for pre-approval of the Eagle project, is too fold 1) to make sure the project will meet the requirements, and suggest changes if need be. 2) to get the scout use to coming in front of the board." Nope the only reason for district review is to make sure the project meets BSA Guidelines and requirements. This review also does not have to be done in front of the advancement committee, anyone trained as an Eagle Reviewer can do the review. moosetracker; "The Dry run is just another tool to relax the scout about the "unexpected".." There is no "unexpected" at this stage the youth has been through at least 5 BORs. The only difference is the recommended length of time for the review. moosetracker; "Whatever you do to relax a scout about what to expect, is really not a waste of time." If the adults would stop making the EBOR something more than it is then the youth would already be relaxed. And yes its really is a waste of the youths time to have one more thing placed on them at a busy time in their lives.

shortridge; "No. 1, there should be no youth counselors. Youth staff under 18 may assist with instruction, but a qualified 18-year-old (minimum) should always be signing off on each Scout, individually." Its not practical to not have youth under 18 as counselors at summer camp since this is the age most willing to work for the pay offered. At our camp there is an 18 yr old who is the director of the area with youth counselors for each MB. The director signs off the card based on the recommendations of the youth counselors. If it was not this way then the cost of camps would have to be much more in order to staff the camps with over 18yr olds at each MB station.

Prep the scouts for the BOR? why would you do such a thing? What a waste of time. Questions are never the same. There are not set Questions. And there are no right or wrong answers, just honest thought out responses. Not much different from previous BORs just more things to discuss.

On the last page of the Eagle Scout Project workbook there are listed, "The 12 steps from life to Eagle", step number 6 speaks about the references. QuekolisChie; "On the eagle scout application it asks for 6 references, now my council, MinsiTrails, requires that I get 3 letters as reference, should those letters be from 3 of the 6 references on the application?" Yes, that is the purpose of the references. QuekolisChief; "Now for the religous reference, I dont regularly go to chuch but I do believe in god, go to chuch on the holidays and always attend the services at camp... Do you think I would have a problem with the Eagle Scout Board?" List your parent as your religious reference. From the workbook: "The Scout shall have listed six references(five if no employer, and parent if no organized religious association)."(This message has been edited by Gary_Miller)

OldGreyEagle, "I thought it strange the only time the scout talked about camping was with the OA, he couldnt remember a troop camping trip that stuck out to him. That was the point, perhaps obtusely made" Arrow Corps Five was a big deal for those who were involved. I know with the boy we took it was one of the biggest things they have ever done and they still are talking about it. I wish every boy could have the experience that was offered through AC5. I know for my son that being on Camp Staff and the OA is what kept him going in scouting. The unit (LDS) he was in was had very weak leaders and almost no program. Luckily for a time he was duel enrolled in another troop, because the SM was also the OA chapter Advisor, in which he was able to experience many outdoor activities, like a canoe trip into Yellowstone's back country. Although he did lots of things and attended loots of leadership training, held lots of leadership positions (currently OA Lodge Chief) he never made Eagle Scout. Lots of which I attribute to the weak program he was in during most of his scouting, although I also know it was up to him to. He was just more interested in OA and Camp staff than he was in finishing up his eagle. When I asked him about how he felt about not finishing Eagle he said, "I have done more though the OA and Camp staff and have more leadership skills than most Eagle Scouts can even dream of having. I think he will make a great SM someday.

The boys make the consequences also, its all about buy in if the boys make the rules and consequence they are more likely to follow them. You will probably find out that the boy make harder laws and consequences than you would. A boy lead boy ran troop means the boys make all the decisions and do all the work. It make the adult leaders job a whole lot easier, that is if the adult is willing to let the SPL Drive the car.

acco40, "The boys don't get to make the "laws"" Say what? When it comes to the troop program the boys make all the "laws" under the guidance of an advisor the SM.

Eagledad,"I can't recall an Eagle I didn't like to be around." I have, however they are usually young adults (25yr+) who think they know everything there is about being a adult scout leader but know nothing. Don't want to go to training and when a experienced scouter tries to steer them in the right direction they don't listen. Which in turn causes SG2S issues.

Ok,here is my personal opion on the subject. I think Venturing Crews are an integral part of the Boy Scouts of America. I have seen many youth in the Venturing program who have easily live up to the Obligation of the order. I have never understood or agreed with the guideline to exclude youth in Venturing crews, both male and female, from the order. All that would need done is to change the rank requirement to read differently or remove it all together. Although I think changing it to read differently would be best. As for the camping requirement I would keep it as it is. As a Scouter most familiar with the LDS program. I have seen many youth who have turn 16 and entered into the Venturing Crew, who were well deserving of being in the OA who just never had a chance to be elected because their troop/team never held elections. Who now are no longer eligible just because their membership is now in a crew. So yes I think Venturing Crews should be allowed to hold OA elections and I also think both male and females in the crew should be eligible. Now you have my real take on this subject.

emb021, "Well, I assume you're not involved in Venturing, and don't know much about it." While I'm have not been deeply involved. I have been involved enough to understand how the program is suppose to work. I have also seen some very impressive young people come out of the program emb021, "Venturing: Scoutings Next Step" is a catch phrase from the early days, as its on one of the Venturing promotional items. I know I've heard it and kind of used it for many years. I wouldn't have done so if National themselves didn't use it on their materials." I had just never heard that phrase before. Eagle92, "I can also verify that Venturing was advertised in it's early days as the "Next Step in Scouting." That was how national advertised it to DEs when it was getting ready to come out in 1998, that's how I promoted it when I was starting new crews and converting posts to crews, and I can go one step further. A bunch of us DEs were told by the then Venturing Director that the Silver Award was going to replace the Eagle as BSA's top award. Lots of ticked off DEs in that class." I was in Korea, USAF, in 1998 so was not around for the early stages of the program. And I have only been involved with the Venturing program for the last five years. shortridge, "Venturing as Scouting's Next Step: Look at the second page. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/25-200.pdf" Thank You for the link.

John-in-KC "That's a crock of excrement, and you know it. We have women youth members of camp staffs because Councils cannot find enough young men. So, there's a Council-wide organization of young men in almost every one of our Councils. Why is it not doing some cheerful service and being the honor camping society it should be, and getting off its leaden fourth point of contact and helping the Camp Director find qualified and altruistic young men?" "Oh, yeah, that's why: You say it's not a mission of the Order." Having a son who is currently on camp staff and has been every summer since he was 14 except one, that would be the one where I talked him into holding out for more money, its all about the money. Youth can make allot more money flipping burgers at the local burger place, than at camp. Those that do work camp staff usually do so because they enjoy it and have fun so they don't care about the money. John-in-KC, "As a collateral to this debate, you'd best not hope that Boy Scouting becomes co-educational, either at the Council level (gender-specific Troops) or at the unit level, as we are discussing in a thread in Open Discussion, Program. If that day comes the first young woman who is denied an Ordeal will have a discrimination lawsuit against the National Committee of the Order of the Arrow. Her parents will be very rich, and the Order will be under Court supervision for years to come..." When that comes I'm sure that young woman will be elected into the order as scouts just like the young men. But we are not talking about young women in the Boy Scouting side of the organization, we are talking about holding elections in Venturing Crews which currently is not allowed due it being impossible to meet the current induction guidelines. John-in-KC, "I've said my piece, and I shall no longer post in this thread. It's blatantly obvious there are Brothers who cannot or will not think outside the box." I'm sorry you feel that way. As one who you feel does not think out side the box, I can assure you I think out of the box quite well. I understand all of what you have said and I agree with you as well as others on this subject. However, I have just spent the last two years trying to work with adult advisors, Lodge, Staff and other advisors, to get our lodge back in line with the current OA guidelines. One of the most important one is that the youth are in charge and the youth make lodge policy. I have also seen a Lodge Chief frustrated with having to work with a Lodge Advisor who does not want to follow the guidelines as set forth in the handbooks. An advisor who feels that he is responsible for making lodge policy and that the youths purpose is only to carry out the program. So while to me personally I don't care if Venturing Crews hold elections or if the young women on the crews get inducted. I have chosen at this time to hold the line set forth in the OA handbooks and guidelines. So until the rules are changed, I'm sorry no elections for Venturing crew.

John-in-KC, "Again, this can be solved quickly: Lodges need to step up to the plate, and recruit to fill all camp staff positions with Arrowmen. Then, there is not need for Venturing women to serve our Councils as seasonal staff. When the boys are pulling the full load, and young ladies are not doing cheerful service greater than what 10 unit only Scouts are doing, the argument is moot." The lodge has nothing to do with the recruitment of camp staff. Staff are employees of the council they are interviewed and hired by the camp director based on the needs of the camp. Who they hire is non of the lodges buisness. The only reason you see young ladies in Venturing uniforms is because young ladies can only register in the Venturing program, and the tan Boy Scout uniform is not an approved uniform for Venturing Crews. Therefore, young ladies can only wear a Venturing uniform, and staff have to be in uniform. You have to be a registered in a BSA program to work at camp. I know at our camp the staff form a Venturing Crew in which all staff members are registered. Without this crew young ladies would not be able to be on camp staff.(This message has been edited by Gary_Miller)

sherminator505, "Why then, do we not find information on Venturing on venturing.org, or information on Cub Scouts on cubscouting.org? Actually, the second address actually works, but where does it lead, hmm..." Could it be it was an available domain that made since in which to link all the programs together. emb021, "Oh? Then why is Venturing billed as "Scouting's Next Step" if its not part of Scouting???" It is? Please lead me to the official document that does this. I have yet to hear Venturing billed as anything except another option for youth interested in high adventure.