Gary_Miller

Engineer61, "Ok...you want an example....how about segregation?" Now that is way to funny. However, as a long time member of the LDS church I can see how someone could perceive this happening. As members of the church do tend to stick to their own. But this is not because of segregation it only because of their comfort zone. Engineer61, "When the call goes out for help for Eagle projects, our troop will jump in with 10 or 15 boys + parents...no problem. We don't ask church affilations... But when one of our Eagle projects come up...not one LDS affliated Scout shows. Ever." Good example. And as a church member I find it sad that this happens. As a LDS scouter I know how and why it happens, lack of lack of understanding the program due to leaders not knowing the program. Now if the boy who was doing the project contacted some of he LDS scout buddies personally my guess is they would be there. Engineer61,"That segregation permeates the entire community at every level." This I find hard to believe. Wither one supports a community activity is a personal choice, and my guess is that many are LDS. You just don't know it. Heck I don't even know every LDS member who lives in my town. Engineer61, "LDS members never support local school fundraisers...(I know that from personal experience many times.)" See above. Engineer61,"LDS members won't even by GS cookies...the excuse I was given was that GSA is sponsored by Planned Parenthood so GSA is pro-abortion....that being told to a 6 year old and an adult." Individual choice. No direction from the church on this. And just so you know. I buy GS cookies from every girl scout who asks me.

Any unit is allowed to choose their own leadership as long as that leadership is in alignment with the policies set forth by the Boys Of America. Non-LDS units are allowed to choose their own leadership already, and I have yet to see the LDS Church dis-enroll their membership because they have this choice.

Since when did units limit the amount of award a youth could earn and when they could earn them. Cub Scouts is just not about earning awards at meetings its about working and earning awards at home also. Any unit that limits what a boy can do is only slowing the boys down in the program. If cost is the problem then the unit needs to raise the dues or increase their fund raising money. No boy should be turned down on an award limited on what they can do in the program due to money. And no family should be expected to pay for any awards past what they are required to pay in yearly dues or earn at fund raisers. And any unit that don't allow sport and academic pins and belt loops are not providing the youth in the program the whole Cub Scout program.

Trevorum, "Our stable has a group of a half-dozen or so young ladies ages 14-16 who take riding lessons from my wife. They all love horses are all great friends. In fact they already act somewhat like a crew, without the organization. Recently, I happened to mention Cavalcade treks and they thought that sounded like crazy fun, being on horseback for a week. What would be involved in getting these young cowgirls lined up for a BSA cavalcade next summer?" A Horse back riding crew. Sounds like a great group of kids to make a crew and who knows where it would go. If you got the word out to the other youth at the stable or in the area you just might be surprised what could happen. I can also see this group working on the Ranger Award.

Scoutfish, by George i think you got it.

Twocubdad, "Not many places refill tanks anymore -- everyone has gone to the exchange system." Where do you live that this is a problem? Most any RV service center sales propane, Local farm co-ops, tuck stops, ect.. I have never not been able to find a place that refills bulk propane bottles.

Basementdweller, "I am pretty sure Dad is bullying him, I am not sure how to approach the situation. I approach dad, I will probably loose him." What makes you think dad is bulling him? Is dad a bully or is he just strick? If you really feel dad is a bully then there maybe some abuse going on. If this is the case you should contact the local health and welfare office. The will check out the situation and you remain anonymous.

I like an aluminum canoe. Grow up with a Lowman but now have a Grumman have not had any problems. I weigh about what you weigh and while the front will lift up out of the water if I sit in the back by myself I have never flipped it over or swamped it, although it makes it hard to control in the wind with the front out of the water. Like you discovered with a lighter person in the front it better for the heaver person to move forward and kneel. If I'm alone and want to sit on a seat I just turn it around backward and sit on the front seat. If I was you I would purchase a 16' aluminum one. Don't get in a hurry look a round and you should be able to pick up a used one in good shape for half the price. I stole mine paid a $100 at a yard sale.

bacchus, "Maybe it's just semantics, but my YM calendar, which includes scouting activities, is approved by the bishopric." The bishopric is the final approval for all things. However, before the calendar gets to the bishop it should go through the committee first to ensure the committee can support the program. On of the biggest problems I have found is the YM Presidency going around the committee and straight to the bishopric on things that the committee should be involved in. Doing this make the committee ineffective, and negates the need for a committee. bacchus,"Also, although the committee may want to help get a Scouting unit "back on track", I would think this kind of direction to a member of the YM Presidency would be better coming from the bishopric - or the COR in scouting terms." Its been my experience that the bishoprics donot have the experience to know if the program is off track, unless they have been scout leaders before. Even then if the program was not being done properly they may not know there is a problem. The COR is usually a member of the bishopric and a member of the committee. He should be open minded enough to rely on the committees help to work with the YM leaders in ensuring the program is "on Track" according to BSA guidelines. bacchus, "It's been my experience that the scouting unit leaders are more knowledge about the BSA programs than the committee chair anyway." I should hope that would be the case. However, our unit has just gone through a five year period where the SM, VC, and VA did not have the knowledge of the program that members of the committee did. These men would not attend training. Would not focus on a boy lead program. And ran what I call Basketball scouts or scouting of fun as my boy would put it. Now its the other way around the committee is made up entirely of non-scouting people and the scout leaders are scouter's. However, we are still having problems with establishing a boy planned, lead, and carried out program. Hopefully this will change after the SM attends wood-badge this fall.

I think you on the right track. Its better to cancel the outing and have nothing happen, than it is to not cancel have a big storm come in which would cause for everyone having a bad time or worse yet someone getting hurt or killed. Error on the side of caution.

bacchus, "Although it seems a bit much to expect a committee member to spend 4 hours each on 2 different trainings just to sit on the committee." I don't think so. How can you be an effective committee member if you don't know the job. I have spent all my adult life learning about the different programs so I can serve the youth better. I don't think it would hurt anyone to do whats required in order to fulfill the calling/responsibility that they agreed to do. bacchus, "I also see a bit too much of the committee trying to direct the YM program, which should be the position of the YM Presidency/Unit Leaders (SM, Coach, Advisor)." The committees job is one of support, this is the same for any CO. The committee also approves the yearly calendar, after the youth leaders build it. The committee don't direct the program the support the program by tracking advancement, organizing transportation, keeping track of funds, equipment, and outdoor/camping. However, if the leaders (YM Pres)is not following the scouting program properly its the committees responsibility to help them get back on track. diogenes,"Another way to handle the committee situation (assuming you have enough leaders available) is to have the YM presidency form the core of the committee(s) and let the quorum advisors be the SM, Coach, Venture Advisor. The YM presidency can oversee the entire set of programs, and they can take a good chunk of the mentoring roles needed for VArsity and Venture units." The YM's presidency are called as the Qurom advisors SM, VC, and VA. They just make up the presidency. Then the Bishop calls other men as assistances as required. The committee has an entire different responsibility. diogenes, "If you have a 3-in-1 committee for scouts, I recommend having at least one person from Primary be on the committee to handle issues with the 11 year old Scouts, and to help coordinate activities with the Cubs as needed." By virtue of her position the Primary President is automatically a member of the troop ,committee to handle issues of the 11 year old Scout patrol.And One of her counselors are responsible for the Cubs Scouts and is a member of the CS committee. When I was committee Chairman I would have the Primary President serve in the secretary position as it was less demanding on her and gave her something to do on the committee. I also had the ASM over the 11yr Scout Patrol attend the committee meeting as his program is separate from the main troop program.

evry, "The troop is not affiliated with any church etc. The Chartering Org is a non-profit set up by the older leaders in the troop (old guard) in order to sponsor the troop. (convenient..eh?)" Usually when these groups get started it because they did not like how the CO was running things or there was not organization to charter with. So a group of scouter who wanted a quality program got together and charted the unit themselves. This old guard usually get burned out very quickly so start to go with the flow. Even though they know its not totally by the books. This is usually because they end up relying on the parents to staff positions which means constant change as most parents only stick around while their son is in the program, and most never take time to be trained. Why not find out how to become a member of this non-profit group, that way you can slowly work by making the changes from the top down.

Having been in the military I have seen many scouts transfer from other councils. Usually they brought with them a copy of their records from Their previous unit, or the council contacted the last council for a copy. Its also my understanding now that the BSA ID# never changes.

LDS Scout committees are no different from any other charter organizations committee. If the members of the committee don't do take their responsibilities seriously then they will fail. If the troop/Team/crew leaders don't know how to use the committee then they will end up doing all the work themselves. bacchus, " What do you other LDS guys expect from the role of a committee?" Form the church Scouting Handbook, Page 3. "Each Scouting committee should: 1. Meet as needed to discuss scouting in the ward and to recieve assignments from the committee chair. 2. Support and assist the Scouting activities by providing needed services. 3. See that the Scout units operate in accordance with Church policies and the standards of the Boy Scouts of America. 4. Encourage boys and young men to earn the On My Honor and Faith in God Awards." Not much different from any other CO. While I have seen a committee which was over all the programs. It works better having a separate Cub Committee, this is because much of the meeting is used to plan the pack meetings. As for a combined troop/team/crew committee I think it works well, due to much of the functions of committee members overlap. However, it puts much more responsibilities on Team and Crew leaders as these units are set up where CMs usually function as responsibility advisors to the youth. With a combined committee this usually don't happen. You have to be real careful to ensure that the Team and Crew work on their various programs and are just not an extension of the Boy Scout Program,(ie: focusing only on BS advancement). A strong committee with an understanding of the various programs is needed to prevent this.

juliagoolia15, "I have worekd hard to bridge the gap between the LDS packs and nonn-LDS packs. We are making progress, because afterall, we have the same interest-the boys!" Julie, there should be no gaps a pack is a pack no matter the charter organization. The only difference from LDS packs is they don't use Tiger Cubs and they run on the age joining scale instead of the grade in school. Wolfs are 8, Bears are 9, and Webolos are 10 and run a one year program instead of a 2 year program. If you have anything other than that gap someones blowing smoke at you.

There is no church guidelines that says LDS units must have LDS Commissioners, and LDS leaders do not call commissioners. Commissioners are a district function and therefore are appointed by the district. However, as has been pointed out there is a publication that was published last year to help non-LDS scouter better understand the LDS scouting program. This publication suggest the Stake Young Mens Presidency and the Stake Primary Presidency could serve as commissioners. This is because the duties and responsibilities assigned to those presidencies overlap those of what a commissioner would do. So those positions fit well as commissioners. The bottom line is commissioners for LDS Units do not have to be LDS. But it does help to understand the guidelines and restrictions that the Church as the Charter Organization had place on their scouting units. Hope this helps.

Eagle92,"And please do not take this and an attack on LDS units as it is not meant to be." Then why single out a charter organization? Eagle92, "My observation with 2 sets of units, one was top notch, the other had a long way to go, was that adults do more of the youth work than in non-LDS troops." While that maybe your "observation" my experience has been it has nothing to do with the charter organization as it has to do with the adults involved their level of training, their understanding of an advisors responsibility, as well as their trust in the boys. Eagle92, "I thing this is because LDS units are divided on age, i.e. 11 yos work with CS, 12-13 work together in a troop, 14+ in a crew. I believe that it takes away from having the patrol method somewhat." First a correction. 11 yos scouts in LDS chartered units don't work with the CS program. They function as the new scout patrol in the troop. They don't met with the troop but hold their own weekly patrol meeting. The leaders are ASM in the troop an if done properly the troop guide meets with them. While all units are different I have found the division of age groups in different programs work well if the adults in the programs focus on their responsibility to teach the YM to be leaders. Eagle92, "And here's why: once you have an experienced youth who is capable of being a leader and passing on his knowledge to his patrol, he moves to the next level." However, because the boys move by age and not all at one time there is always an experienced YM to pass on his knowledge to his patrol. Eagle92, "But because that isn't happening, adults are doing more of the older scouts' work." I think it has more to do with the adults not doing their job of training the youth in their responsibilities and then expecting them to do it. It goes back to the old saying "Its just easier to do it myself." So some leaders just step in and do it, instead of letting the boys figure it out. LDS units are not the only units with this problem. Eagle92, "By having the full gamut of 11-17yos all together, the older scouts should be working with the younger ones. the older ones do the teaching, they do the mentoring , they are running the program." That same influence and teaching happens when the leaders of the various programs in and LDS units work together and teaches the YM in their duties of helping each other.

jet526, "Every scout and situation is different. Every unit is different as well. Things that may work in a unit with twelve scouts may not work in a unit with fifty or a hundred." Your right here. However, is not the purpose of this form to discuss scouting and what others have found that works or doesn't work. Or process or procedures that could be done differently to make a program better. As well as helping us to become better leaders. jet526, "The dynamics in a LDS unit are different from a traditional unit." Having worked a a leader in both LDS sponsored units and units sponsored by other organizations. I have not found the dynamics to be different at all when the program is done according to BSA guidelines. As well, making blanket statements about units charted by a specific organization (ie: LDS Units) makes a number of assumptions that are prejudice, inaccurate, and possibly were not well thought out. jet526, "Making blanket statements that any particular method is "foolish" or "childish" makes a number of assumptions that possibly were not well thought out." Actually I was not making any assumptions. I was only stating my opion of a procedure/process in which you described. jet526, "Certainly claims that things are "doomed to failure" when they are being done in what appears to be a thriving unit are ill advised." Once again my statements was made based on my experience (27yrs) of working with youth in the BSA program. Which is when the adults place unrealistic requirements upon youth, the first thing that happens is the youth leave the program. My goal is to ensure that the youth stay in the program, because if I or the program can't have an influence on a youth who is not in the program. jet526, "Unless what the person is doing is unsafe or against policy, it might be more helpful to restrict comments to what works for you rather than what you think the other guy is doing wrong." However, your statement: "Unless there was a very good reason to have missed (neither band nor football practice count as good reasons), they can wait until the next COH." Is one in which forces a YM to have to make a decision in which I feel maybe detrimental to whole reason for the Boy Scouting program. Which is to have a positive influence in the lives of Young Men through out the world. So I guess you could say anything that could drive a YM away from the program could be against BSA policy. You can't have an influence in a young mans life if he is not part of the program.

While I understand the frustration "jet526" may have a youth can be duel registered in a Scout Troop. I know this from experience as my boy was dual registered in his LDS scout unit and in another local unit. So It can happen and is allowed. I could be wrong here but my guess is you have two boys from a divorced family. The boys went to Utah to visit their other parent. Or the boys went to Utah to visit their grand parents. In ether case the must have attended the youth activities of the Church in Utah, which in the LDS church would be Boy Scouting. While there the church unit was scheduled to go to camp as well as other activities. In order to be covered by the church insurance while on the activities they duel registered or transfered the boys in the LDS unit. In ether case the SM of the other unit had the right to sign the boys off on their requirements and the unit had the right to do BORs if they felt the requirements were met. And No one in any other unit has the right to question the actions of the other unit leaders, even if you don't think its right and especially if you have a prejudice against the charter organization. It seems to me the father did the right thing. He know his boys was going to be gone. He contacted the unit leaders to find out where the boys were with their advancement. And he passed on the advancement reports of the boys upon the boys returning back home.

I see no problem with this and no reason to check your relationship at the door. Its natural that two people in a crew may become attracted to each other. I think the most important thing is to keep the affection appropriate in crew meetings. No hanging on each other and no lovey dovey stuff ether. On camp-outs no going off alone and messing around. Remember your young and this relationship is likely to be short lived.

jet526, "And exactly, how is it that this requires that the advancement chair has to haul the scout's awards to each meeting?" Because that's what he volunteered to do. Support the scout. Of course this does not mean that other procedures could be adobted like the YM going to the Advancement Chairs house to pick up his awards or the awards being given to the SM to take to the troop meeting. jet526, "Why is it important to support the scout but not to support the adult volunteer?" Because it the adults volunteers job to support the scout. That's what we said we would do when we volunteered. jet526, "Perhaps we should drive to the scout's house and hand deliver it to him. That would be supportive wouldn't it? Thats one option. Just think how a YM would feel if a adult volunteer brought his awards to him, found out why he was missing and let him know that we care about him as a person. jet526, "Or perhaps the best support I can give is to help him deal with the decisions that he needs to make." That is support also. It teaches the YM that he has choices to make in life and that he is responsible for his own decisions. It all depends on what you are trying to do. For me I try to let the boy know that he is wanted, important, cared for and responsible for his choices without driving him away from the program. I do this because I can have no influence on the life of a YM if he is not in the program.

jet526: "I disagree. When shown by your actions that Scouting is not important and that you will make it as accommodating as possible then you make it less desirable to them. When you set the value of Scouting high by your expectations then you make it more desirable." Letting a YM know that you are there for them and that you support them in all their activities is not saying "Scouting is not important". Its saying that you support them in their interests, you support their decisions and have respect for them and the choices they make. Its saying that the YM is important and you care about them more than you do about the program.

If a Scout misses the the COH just give him his stuff at the next meeting. Its his stuff he earned it and it be longs to him. None of this waiting until the next COH thats just plan "foolish" on the leaders part. None of this it wasn't important enough for him to be at the COH so he can just wait thats "childish". Belive it or not YM have a life other than scouts so we need to give the some slack if we want them to stay involved. We can't be like the coaches and music leaders who make it seam that life revolves around sports and music, and everything else is second. We need to be the flexible ones.

When I was a cub (40yrs ago) we wore are uniforms to school on den meeting day. We were proud to be Cub Scouts and everyone did it. Uniforms are part of the program, and boys should be expected to wear a complete and proper uniform. If you want uniforming to happen the adults need to be in a complete uniform. Adults need to not make any rules such as shirts only. Expect the whole uniform and it will happen. Having uniform inspections in Den and Pack meeting will encourage uniform wear. I know uniforms are expensive and with young boys growing like they do this could mean a new uniform every year. However, there are ways packs can help with this problem. A pack could form a uniform closet. Where there is a supply of used uniforms, a committee member would be responsible for the closet. The rules for the closet are simple. When a boy is new they purchase a uniform from the closet for a small fee. When they grow out of the uniform all they need to do is swap out the uniform, one for one. Have a fund so uniforms can be purchase for the closet. Then put the word out to leaders, parents, and friends of the pack to look for and purchase uniform items at garage sales, second hand store or from prior cub scouts. This will ensure a good supply of uniforms in the closet. Note: I'm a strong believer that boys should not be left out of the program because they don't have a uniform. But I'm also a believer that once they have a uniform they should expected to wear it to all activities. The uniform closet take the excuse away that they can't afford a uniform.

It also could be that they are members but have not kept their dues up-to date and are following the guidelines.