Gary_Miller

Scoutfish, "But how people follow or use the program is a different story." Now your getting it. Its the people and how they inappropriately use the program, not the program. Scoutfish, "In another forum, you yourself said that within LDS, some leaders are "voluntold" to lead. It is expected and required of them." This I did not say. Go back and reread what I said. I was commenting on someone else's post. Scoutfish, "In the end,I think you missed the point of my post." Nope I understood exactlly what you were saying. In short you was saying it does not matter what other units do as long as it don't effect you unit. So why should anyone care what the LDS does, or what others are saying. I stated that I cared about what was being said because lots of time its based on inaccurate and misleading information. All I'm trying to do is help people know what the truth really is.

jet526, "You seem to believe there are no issues in LDS programs. That very well could be in your area." No sir, I don't believe that at all. If you ask anyone who know me you will find out I'm the loudest voice when it comes to the scouting programs not being ran according to guidelines. I know about all the issues and some that you will never know. I believe that its the people in the program not the program where the problem lies. I have spent many hours over the last 26 years as an scout leader studying the program and how it works with the church youth program. What I found was the programs work well together when implemented according to the guidelines from the LDS church and the BSoA. jet526, "I'll be the first to admit that there are issues with non-LDS programs." Then why do you single out LDS units? jet526, "The organizational dynamics are such that it is very difficult to maintain a high functioning unit." That can be a problem but its not a program problem its a people problem. jet526, "A failing non-LDS unit vanishes fairly quickly, a failing LDS unit can go unnoticed and continue for years until the ward gets a bishop that cares enough to notice and take action." Yep, once again, in both incidents, there is the people problem, not the program.

jet526, "Implementation is not always the same." Your right different leaders do different things. Happens in Non-LDS units as well. But you knew that!!!!!!! jet526, "Far too often those requirements are viewed as guidelines or even ideas to shoot for but that are not actually expected." Your right some leaders veiw the requirements as guidelines. Happens in Non-LDS units as well. But you knew that!!!!!!! jet526,"We recently shared a large dispersed camping area with a ward's father and son camp. When they left on Saturday, no effort was made to put out fires or pick up their trash." So just because one group was bad does not make everyone else bad. But you already knew that!!!! jet526, "We have had to leave people in our campsites at summer camp to prevent scouts from coming into the camp and stealing from us. This was after being warned by the camp staff. This occurred in a Utah camp were we were the only non-LDS unit in camp." This happens in every camp. There is alway one or two people out there that makes life difficult for all. And they come from all groups. Just so you know LDS members are not perfect if we were we would not need to attend church. But of course you already knew that also!!!!!!!!!! jet526, "I have seen program directors laid into by LDS leaders for not signing off on an unearned Merit Badge." Me to. I also seen it happen with non-LDS troop leaders as well. But you already knew that!!!!!!!! jet526, "LDS leader shouting at board of review demanding that the scout be given an unearned eagle." Yes I've saw this as well. I've also saw it with non-LDS leaders as well. But you already knew that as well!!!!!!!!

jet526, "Despite Gary_Miller's protests that it is the same program, spend some time in District Eagle Boards of Review and it becomes very obvious that they are not the same. Spend a week at camp with a number of LDS units and it is clear they are different programs." Funny, last I looked the program materials were all the same. The training were all the same. The requirements were all the same. The Oath and Law were all same. Even the last District Eagle Board of Review's were all conducted in the same manner, the Young Man had to do the same paper work, Ect. So where are the programs for LDS units and Non-LDS units not the same? jet526, "Are there good LDS units and fine LDS scouts? Certainly. But there are too many that are not and their behavior effects the reputation of all scouts." Exactly what was the behavior that had an effect on all scouts? jet526, "Yet that ward will have 4 votes on District and Council elections (Pack, Troop, Team and Crew) with less scouts than you will find in many non-LDS units with a single vote." This statement is not true. While wards may have 4 different registered units. They only have one COR who sits on the district and Council Committees, and last I looked only COR were able to vote.

Oak Tree,"It does have some little effect in how it affects my troop - maybe in terms of setting expectations for Eagle," Not sure what you mean here. The expectations set for Eagle are spelled out in the BSA literature all scouts must fulfill the requirements as set forth by the National BSA Committee. Local units can not add or take away from the requirements. Oak Tree, "or when a whole bunch of Scouts disappear from the camporee because they don't camp on Sunday." Every CO has the right to set standards on whats best for their units. The LDS Church has determined that it best for their Young Men to be back in their home units fulfilling their obligations to their God on Sunday. Its how they have determined the best way to live the Scout Law and oath. You know the part about "Duty to God" and "A Scout is reverent.". To my knowledge no one in the church as ever set a requirement that the camporees be tailored to the LDS units specifically. The COR who sit on the district committee makes those decisions. Oak Tree, "One effect that I do care about is in terms of national policy setting - when the LDS church decides that all of BSA should do something, that can affect me." The LDS Church does not decide that all of BSA should do something. BSA National Committee make those decisions, the LDS church being one of the sponsoring organizations of BSA is only one voice/vote on the committee. Oak Tree, "And for the most part, I don't even care about that - all of the different constituencies are free to voice their own opinion." Yep and they all have a vote. Oak Tree,"I would prefer not to have this obvious split between LDS units and non-LDS units. But hey, I'd prefer a great many things and I can't get worked up over this." I also prefer to not have this obvious split, and its up to us all to work at not allowing it to be apart of BSA programs. It starts at the district level and everyone realizing that we have the same goal in mind. That of building boys into good men. A wise person (I don't know who it was) once said "Its easier to build a boy into a man than it is to repair an man." or something like that.

Remember you are working with boys not adults, and the boys don't care how well you speak in front of groups. All they care about is that you care about them and that their meetings have meaning and are fun. So somethings that will help you be successful. Go on line at myscouting.org. Take all the training related to being a webelos leader. Get the necessary books to do the job, read them. Go through the Webelos hand book get familiar with how its layed out. Make sure you know what the diffrent requirements are you don't have to memorize them just have an understanding of them and where to find them. Make sure you have an assistant Den Leader and give them responsibility. Work with the local troop and get a Den Chief make sure he has the materials to do his job and give him responsibility at every meeting. But most of all just have fun and keep it simple.

Eagle92, "From what I read on some LDS and Scouting blogs, there are many folks who feel obligated to say yeas when called to be a scout leader. They are not enthusiastic, are not interested, and are marking time until someone else gets called." Many members of the LDS church take a "calling" because the don't feel it would be right to turn it down when they feel they all called by inspiration given from God through the Bishop. However, when one accepts a calling, they are saying they will fulfill that calling to the best of their ability. In essence they become a volunteer. One also have the right and responsibility to turn down a calling or asked to be released if they don't feel they can fulfill it properly. Here is were the problem lays. Men, once they accept a call, through their free agency have a choice do their calling or choose not to. In the scouting program those who choose not to usually do so because they just don't know what to do, and don't take the time necessary to become trained. There are also those who do an outstanding job at scouting and would stay there for ever who get released way to soon. This usually happens because this type of person would do just a good a job no matter where they are working and the Bishop feels he needs them somewhere else. Some Bishops also feel it best to move people around to diffrent postions in the ward, because it gives them more experiance in the church and makes them a more rounded person. The bright side is in recent years the leadership in Salt Lake has been working on training Bishop about the importance of keeping Young Men Leaders (Scout Leaders) in their calling for longer periods of time. In fact they have said that tenure is spelled "T E N Y E A R S". The bottom line is everyone has their agency to do or not to do, and its my belief that we will be held accountable to God for the choices we make.

resqman, "Are we presenting the program the best we can for our lads?" Your not if your not trained, Don't attend round tables, Don't attend Scouting University, Don't train your youth leaders, and Don't make sure PLC meetings are being held. resqman, "I would like to see more involvement by the older scouts." Hold a SMC with each of the older boys you would like to see more involved. Find out what they see needs improved, and let them know what you would like to see from them. Send them to NYLT then allow them to use their new leader skills. Help them become involved in the OA. resqman,"I would like the boys to be more involved in annual planning." Make it their responsability. Hold a annual planning confence on a weekend. Let them know you will back their dicissions and fight for them with the Troop Committee. Let them know nothing happens if they don't make it happen. Then sit your chair in the back of the meeting room and watch the magic happen. resqman, "Don't know how or why the LDS units may do it differently." The only difference is the way the LDS units move their young men from program to program at a certain age. Other than that the program is the same.

trainerlady, "As I'm learning from some of my LDS customers in my store, leaders aren't volunteers they are "called" to be leaders. A popular term in my area is they are voluntold to be leaders. Some look at it as a great opportunity to give to the kids of the church and embrace the project with gusto and learn and do all they can. Some see it as a major burden, they do it grudgingly and with little effort. I feel sorry for those kids." The "calling" of leaders in the LDS Church is not different than any other organization. The COR of the organization visits with a person and asks them if they would take a position. The individual in both incidents have the right to say "Yes" or "No". No one is told they have to do the job, and every one is a volunteer. The problem lays when one say "YES" but chooses not do the job. To which the organization (BSA) and youth suffer. It has nothing to do with the way the leaders are selected. But has everything to do with how well and how serious the leaders fulfill their responsibility.

Because I do care about all the misguided/uniformed/and false information which abounds on this site and others about the Boy Scout program that "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"(LDS) uses. Let just get something straight. The BSA program that the LDS church uses is the same one that every other unit uses. Its the one that BSA prescribes should be used. There is not now or has there ever been "tweaks" that have not been in accordance with BSA policy on how a chartered organization is to/can use the program.

I was driving through the front gate at Mountain Home AFB in Idaho. I remember commenting to the the Security Guard on duty about a plane crashing into the first tower. At that time I thought it was just a Plane crash. When I got into work we was watching it on TV when the second plane hit and the plane at the pentagon. Shortly afte we received orders to bring up our unit control center which I was responsible for manning. We was placed on full alert with 24 round the clock shift. Three weeks later we where in Qatar building a 5000 man tent city and sending fighters to Afghanistan, was gone 5 1/2 months.

What's with assigning counselors? Why to much leader control going on here. Just give the youth a list of counselors and let him pick contact the one he would like. If its his parent so be it, maybe the only time the youth gets one on one time with his parent.

While I think its important that all leaders attend the pack leaders meeting sometimes its not possible for many reasons. So as long as DL is providing the information the committee needs, and as long as the leader makes sure their den fulfills their responsibilities for pack meeting I don't see a problem.

Basementdweller, "I was told that it would be a 150 mile round trip for them to visit us and put on the ceremony. NO was the answer." 150 miles round trip is just a short drive:). The farthest pack in out district is about a 2hr drive and we would not even blink to go there. Heck we have to drive 25 miles just to go to Wal-Mart. If your unit will pay for the trip I'm sure I could get the chapter to come. Any excuse for a road trip is good.

Basementdweller, "Wow, That is asking a lot from your OA lodge Ceremony team." Our CS Ceremonies are the responsibilities of the chapters. Each chapter handles all the ceremonies for their district. We have a check out procedure through the scout office for the regalia or the chapter provides their own. Works out quite well. Our chapter also serves on CS day camp staff and are also the district camping committee. Responsible for all district camporees.

The only Badge an Eagle Scout over the age of 18 should be able to purchase is the Adult Eagle Knot. They can't wear the individual patches so have no need to purchase them.

CPAMom, "We plan to do that exact thing at the end of February. If kids earn them early, is there anything short that can be done to recognize and honor quickly at a regular pack meeting?" Why not have the OA guys come and do every Arrow of Light Ceremony for every boy, even if there is only one boy. There is no need to do another ceremony in February for those who have already had a ceremony. Then at the end of the program year have a crossing over ceremony. Since most of the units in our area are LDS and the boys usually cross over when they turn 11 yrs old. We do an arrow of light ceremony for each boy and a crossing for each boy. Sometimes we only have one boy and sometimes we have more boys in the ceremony. But the ceremony is the same no matte how many we have.

As a retired USAF service member. This is my take on how a deployment effects the unit and the family. As well as what can be done to make the deployment easier on the family. Scoutfish, "1) If your pack or troop is predominantly military family, how do you handle routine and sudden military deployments and departures?" This is where its important to have numerous leaders and making sure you have a balance of military leadership and non military leadership. Get fathers and mothers involved who are not the military member. Scoutfish,"2)Has this ever cause a camping trip or event to be canceled or delayed?" Yes, this happens, and there may also be a period of reforming the unit for a period of time. Scoutfish,"3) Are there more or less behavioral issues with the youth" Its hard on the youth of a family when parents are deployed. Lots of things go through a child's head. Even though I was in the military for 20 yrs I can only imagine how the children in a family feels when a parent leaves. The biggest thing is they don't know if they will ever see the military parent alive again. So there will be issues of youth acting up, and its important for leaders to understand this. There may also be issues of youth who become quite or separate them selves for a time. The important thing is that the leaders who don't deploy make sure they form a relationship in which they can help the youth and the families of those who are deployed. A deployment also offer an excellent time for troops and packs to perform much needed service. Things like mowing yards, taking out the trash, raking leaves, and taking care of younger children to give the parent that is at home alone time off. If the youth are keeping themselves active in the service of others they don't have time to worry about themselves.

mikeb, "What will I do when this new scout gets a half mile down the trail and decides he wants to go home? (For any of a multitude of reasons.) What will I do when this new scout of unknown ability is crippled with blisters (or some such thing)? What will I do when we discover this new scout doesn't get along with others or doesn't bring the right gear or brings something he shouldn't or wanders from the group or etc., etc., etc." The same thing I would do with any other Scout. With the help of all the others on the trek we would help them work through the issues/problems. This just maybe what this boy needs in life, and who knows what kind of impact it may have on him.

GernBlansten,"then the LDS church is an 800lb gorilla on setting BSA policy" Call it what you would like. However, the facts are the LDS church is the oldest chartering organization the church adopted the program as it activity arm for boys and young-men because of its high moral standards shortly after BSA was officially established. The LDS church due to its involvement has officials that sit on the National Board of Directors, and its the NBoD that makes policy for BSA. You may not like it but that is how the program was set up. Its the same in every region, council and district. There is a BoD which makes policy pertaining to the program in their areas, and the number one rule it they have to stay within the guidelines of the BSA. GernBlansten,"Yup. As long as there's an 800lb gorilla in the room, there will never be a local option." There already is a local option. Every CO has the right to pick it own leadership as long as that leader meets the approved BSA guidlines. The have the right to not allow someone to be in a leadership position or to remove them from their leadership position. If you don't like the policy then I suggest you do what ever it takes to get on the BoD and work for change through the organizational system. Instead of the court system. OR Go and start your own program.

Scoutfish, "Gern, It may be that the LDS from your are have indeed decided that the will drop. But doesn't mean all LDS will. Technically, I am Episcopal. There was alot of infighting and cliques becasue some were all for gay pastors and some were dead set against it. Churches torn apart and some dropping from mainstream. Your local LDS may be in a similar situaton." Since church program policy comes out of church headquarters in Salt Lake City. If the church decided to drop the program it would be dropped for the entire church. Not just in one area.

GernBlansten, "How about the threat that the LDS would remove all their units if the BSA allowed non-LDS units to set their own criteria for adult membership." Myth, and personal opinion from people not in the know. I don't think anyone will can find anything coming out of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints headquarters in Salt Lake City. GernBlansten, "units to set their own criteria for adult membership." Last I looked units can already set their own criteria for adult membership. All they have to do is follow the BSA guidelines.

ScoutLass,"Gary, while I agree with you in theory, in action money is a limiting factor. If the choice for a pack is to award unlimited belt loops or to spend the money on field trips and activities for the boys, I vote for the activities hands down." Money is always a limiting factor. However, I disagree with where the money should go. I believe that the exposer that a boy gets in the Sports and Academic program to different activities is more valuable to a boy than a field trip to the zoo, or pumpkin patch, or farm, or pack sponsored family campout. These are all things a boy can do with their parents. With the excepting of one Yearly sponsored Council or district day camp and webelos camping for advancement, there is no need or Cub Scouts to go camping. However, I don't believe in working on Sports and Academic program as a Den or a pack, as they are designed to be individual in nature. Much like merit badges for Boy Scouts. So the cost balances out as some boys with work hard on the program where others may do nothing. The average cost for a boy per year for awards is approx $20. This is a boy advancing one rank, 4 belt loops and 4 pins.(This message has been edited by Gary_Miller)

Yep, I've been doing it for years. I just feel if a girl is brave enough to ask, then I can at least purchase. One time a friends girl brought her whole troop to my house.

Basementdweller here is the answer "A Very Young Cubmaster from a LDS Pack". My guess this individual has not yet been to training, has not read his BSA handbook. And from this comment "According to him Webelos cannot join boy scouts till 12." has not read his LDS scouting handbook. So therefore he does not know the program. What would of been helpful was for you as an experienced scouter to ex-plane to him the difference in how different COs put the CS program on. You missed a perfectly good teaching moment, and maybe you could of had a new friend. Of course I understand that sometimes we have our own groups, and we tend to be a bit clickish at times. So instead of helping the new scout leader we just blow the off as being "intolerant and condescending".