Gary_Miller

As and LDS Scouter who has over 30 years of scouting experience working in every type of unit. Its my hope that I can help you succeed in your new Calling as the Bear Den Leader. In order for me to do that you need to understand how I look at callings. When you are called to a position in the church it is no different than someone coming and asking you to volunteer for that position. As that is exactly what happens. In the case of Cub Scout Leaders they are nominated to the Bishopric (Leaders of a LDS Ward, one of these men are usually the COR) by the Primary Presidency (The primary is the organization in a LDS ward responsible for the children ages 18mos through 11 yrs old.). If the Bishopric feel that person should fill the position then they call (ask) the person if they would accept the calling (volunteer) for the position. Once you accept the calling you (you are now a volunteer) and have the responsibility to fulfill the duties of the postion to the best of you abilities. In order to help you fulfill you calling the church provides all the training and material to help you succeed in you calling. In the case of a Cub Scout Leader the training is provided through the local BSA Council/District. NOW BACK TO THE QUESTION (not shouting just changing subject) Chistineka, it not your responsibility to worry about pack meeting. In the absents of a Cub Master (CM) or Assistant Cub Master (ASM) the responsibility for Pack Meeting falls on the Cub Committee. In the absents of a Cub Committee the responsibility fall upon the Primary Presidency, usually one of the Counselors are responsible and oversees the Cub Scout program in the ward, and serves as a member of the Cub Committee. In our ward she serves as the Committee Chairman. Christineka, I suggest you only worry about your Bear Den. Let the Webelos Leader worry about the Arrow of Light Ceremony. And Let the Committee and Primary Presidency worry about the Pack Meeting. If you do this you won't be so over whelmed in your new Calling as a Cub Scout Den Leader.

I buy a box of cookies from every Girls Scout that asks me. I don't by any popcorn no matter who asks. Why? Quality and cost of product.

SMEagle819, "Needless to say, the irate email I received was about the change of plans without notification. I would like some suggestions on a response, as I am having difficulty coming up with something "PC" to say." I would not reply at all. If this parents son was there then they know why it was changed and there is no reason for any further explanation. SMEagle819,"I do admit that I was wrong, and should have sent an email regarding change of plans, and yes that will be worked into my response as well." The only wrong you did was not running this by the SPL and letting him decide how to handle the problem.

I suggest that everyone go study the Varsity Team Handbook. I think you will find out its not the Boy Scout program for older boys, its not just sports related, although thats an option. You will find out the program has its own advancement program and much of the program is High Adventure base.

I'm and old school WB'er in fact I attended both BS and CS Train The Trainer courses within a three year period of time. I'm thinking of attending the New course this coming summer only for one reason. So I know whats being taught since the course has change so much. However, the most important thing I learned at BS WB was to sit back in my chair let the youth do all the work and be there to help guide them when needed. I also learned scout skills and inter patrol competition is a good thing it what build strong character in youth. In the end when I really think about my experiences in both course the one thing I learned the most was how to properly apply the program. To this day I think that is the most important item an adult leader needs. If you don't know how to properly apply the program. If you don't know how to let the youth run and lead the program. Then purpose of the program will fail. The purpose of the program to me is: Taking boys and turning them into Men who are productive members of society.

Hence the reason for following the Adult selection guidelines and not just selecting anyone.

How bout we bring this back to the original question and concern. Which has nothing to do with the Indian culture. To summarize the OPs original question. The Lodge is struggling in numbers and participation, and the OP feels that there is a direct correlation between membership numbers/participation and the % of Scoutmasters in the council who are OA members. I don't think there is a correlation. In fact while it is nice to have SMs involved in the order for obvious reasons. SM are usually not the best choice in the type of adult the OA needs. SMs if they are doing their job correctly are just to busy to have "the ability to perform the necessary functions to help the Order fulfill its purpose"(Guide to Officer and Advisors, 2010, page 21) and its better to have another adult in the unit to help. The problem I have seen is the way adults are selected. It seems that in most lodges adults are selected more as an award to what they have done. Which causes Sash and Dash Adults. According to the OA literature the selection of adults should be base on what they can bring to the order. I can't find my Handbook right now but if my memory serves me right it states that one of the main purposes of adults in the order is to ensure that youth can get to events and can fulfill their duties. It also seems that many lodges have developed their own election forms in which there is a place to add the name of the adult being selected by the unit on the form. Instead of using the official OA forms. I know this is the case in my lodge. Which makes adult selection more of an award or recognition. I feel that for many lodges the problem with participation and numbers comes down to the selection of adults and how chapters operate. Its the chapter that delivers the OA program at the local level. Its the adults that help the youth deliver that program. Criteria for selecting adults is as follows, if lodges use this criteria in the selection of adults inducted the lodge will have a much stronger pool of adults. Which in turn will create more participation and higher retention of membership numbers in the youth. From the top of the adult selection form". "Selection and induction into the Order of an adult Scouter should take place only when the adult's job in Boy Scouting or Varsity Scouting will make Order of the Arrow membership more meaningful in the lives of the youth membership. It must not be for the purpose of adult recognition." From the body of the form: "The following conditions are the basis for candidate selection and MUST be fulfilled to be considered. Make a brief statement regarding the individual for each item. 1. Selection of the adult is based upon ability to perform the necessary functions to help the Order fulfill its purpose, and not for recognition of service, including current or prior achievement and position. The individual's abilities include: 2. This adult will be an asset to the Order because of demonstrated abilities that fulfill the purpose of the Order, in the following manner: 3. The camping requirements that apply for youth candidates apply to adult candidates and must have been fulfilled within the most recent two years prior to recommendation for membership. The requirement, which is a minimum of fifteen days and nights of camping, which must include six days and five nights of resident camping approved and under the auspices and standards of the Boy Scouts of America, was fulfilled as follows: 4. This adult leader's membership will provide a positive role model for the growth and development of the youth members of the lodge because:"

T2Eagle, "Gary said its a good what would you do scenario, but we dont have enough information to really develop a good answer for that." I disagree, while we don't have all the information, we have enough to get a good discussion going on what could have been done and what type of equipment to carry with you even on a short hike. Assumptions could be thought out to the point of being able to determine what one may or may not been able to do, based on assumed knowledge, skills and equipment. For example, we can assume that they had no way to light a fire because if they had, they could of made a big smokey fire in which those looking for them would have seen the smoke or the light from the fire.

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Looks like a good what would you do scenario to give to your scouts. Let them think through and talk about what should or should not have been done, as well as what type of equipment they should have had.

Just have the committee gather all the paper work, after all that what they are there for.

Yea Beav I saw that after I posted, so just waited to see if someone would bring it up. However, if the requirement has been signed off by the SM who's to say it has not been met. I've seen many boys, including Eagle Scouts, who can't do the basic Knots/Hitches. However, they met the requirement at the time they pass it off. Since a BoR can't retest how you going to determine the requirement was met except that its signed off in the book. And if the MB counselor is the one who decides that the badge is completed, the BoR has no buisness questioning other wise. About the only thing a BoR can determine if a requirement has been met is on the PoR, active, and service project. Lets face it the real purpose of a BoR is to get the boy in a interview type environment, and the EBoRs main purpose is to determine that the boy showed leadership during the execution of his project.

No you have to be registered as the Den Leader to earn those awards. You can how ever earn the Cub Scouter Award.

Twocubdad, "A basic purpose of any BoR is to determine if requirements have been met." Not a purpose of any BoR. Requirements having been met has already been determined by the SM. The purpose of a BoR is: From the "Guide to Advancement 2011". 8.0.0.1 Purpose and Timeliness of Boards of Review After a Scout has completed the requirements for any rank or Eagle Palm, he appears before a board of review. Its purpose is to determine the quality of his experience, decide whether he is qualified to advance and, if so, encourage him to continue the quest for Eagle or the next Palm. Because the board of review date becomes the effective advancement date, boards should be scheduled at least monthly so Scouts are not delayed in beginning time-oriented requirements for the next rank.

Abel, The COR position is the key as they represent their organization and scouting units at the district and council level. However, to be effective and have any credibility they have to be involved all the time not just when something is not going the way they think it should. Its the organizations who charter units and without units there is no council. Without the council the professional staff has no job. It really is that simple and will work. The problem is that most CORs don't understand their responsibility and are just a name on the charter.

Basementdweller, "Ok guys, so when are the volunteers going to take the organization back????" As soon as you get true volunteers sitting in COR positions, who get trained in their position, who understand that they control what happens, who then attend meetings at both district and council level in order to ensure that the district and council does what the units want and not what the professional scouter's want just to make themselves look good.

Why not do a nice AOL and Cross over for these boys at the next Pack Meeting? After all thats what Pack Meetings are for, and both of those ceremonies can be done anytime.

The advancement guide give guidance on how a scout should dress for aBOR. All members of the BOR should be follow the same guidance.

This is why its so important for CORs to be involved. CORs have the ability to drive whats happening in the district of council. CORs have the majority voice on district and council committees, they determine which way to drive the car. DEs can not remove volunteers at any level they do not have that ability. If the district is being properly operated, district volunteers can only be remove once a year when they are not renominated (by the nominating committee) or voted in by the district unit CORs. In actuality the term District Executive is misleading as their responsibility is to only support district units and volunteers. They really have no powers as the term Executive suggests in the cooperate world.

skeptic, "Taking shoes from horses is inhumane and violates the fifth point of the Scout Law." As a Farrier I'm in violation of this on a daily bases. However, I always give them a new set of nails when I put them back on. skeptic, "Before throwing the shoes, they must be documented to have not been taken from an unwilling horse." Eventually the horse will become a willing participant.

Learn the program. Take all the training you can. Read your handbooks. Train the youth on the program Give them all the resources they need. Let the youth run the program. This includes planning and doing everything. Understand they won't run it like you would. Understand they are learning to be leaders. Let the youth drive the care. Sit back and let it happen. Don't try and save the day when something fails, let the Youth work it out. Don't dictate the program to the youth. Remember you main job is to advise not do. Always sit in the back of the room, this includes Courts of Honor. Run blocker of other adults for your youth.

Since the main point of the requirement is to learn how to use a compass and map together. I would say that taking a trip would be appropriate in this situation. Have the boy map out a route and then take the trip. The mode of transportation could be by car, or ATV, and I would say if it could be done in the woods that would be best.

Why don't you just use the definition in the Scout Handbook. After all thats what the book is for. A Scout is obedient. A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he seeks to have them changed in an orderly way.

Merlyn_LeRoy, "That works for your definition, too." Using Websters Definition. How does an organization choosing its membership based on principles and standards on which the organization wants in it membership fit into the definition of a bigot? Merlyn_LeRoy, "Fortunately, I'm not affiliated with the BSA." Why is it that some people not affiliated with an organization seem to think is OK to try and force an organization to change/lower its principles and standards in order for those who don't hold those principles and standards can become members? Merlyn_LeRoy, "Would that be the same way thousands of public schools agreed to violate the constitution back when they chartered BSA units that excluded atheists?" Violate the constitution? How does a school allowing BSA to use of their facility violate the constitution?

Papadaddy, "Not to be rude, but a lot of us prefer the anonymity of the forum, which can lead to more open discussions." Not to be rude, but if you want your thoughts, ideas, and opinions to be taken serious, anonymity is not the way to go, and it does not lead to more open discussions. As for me. I have been an adult leader since 1982. Have held many positions in Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts at both unit and district level. I'm a proud member of The Ore-Ida Scout Council have been since 1984. I attended Boy Scout Wood Badge in 1989 (Fox Patrol), and Cub Scout Train the Trainer Wood Badge in 1990 (Antelope Den). Awarded the Silver Beaver in 2001. OA vigil member and associate lodge advisor (Treasure). And I'm currently serving on the district advancement committee.