FScouter

The first clue is "PLEASE DON'T DELETE THIS".

"My suggestion is that every time he brings up that old and factually incorrect point, somebody should post a one-line reminder, with link, to another thread where it was already discussed and demonstrated that Ed's assertion is wrong. And then DROP IT and move on to the rest of the discussion." Or, hows about IGNORE IT. As has been demonstrated more times than fleas on a dog, any response at all begets another iteration of the same.

I'm reminded of Forrest Gump's feather. It drifts hither and yon controlled by the puffs of wind around it. Occasionally the wind may pick up, even turn into a nasty dust devil. But the wind always settles down and no damage done.

Eric, and everyone else, Ed and Merlyn were asked to take their bickering "outside". Merlyn has done that by opening a thread specifically to address Ed's arguments. Fellow moderator OGE has opted to let the thread stand and I agree. Let's please not hijack their "discussion", and leave this thread to the two of them as their personal yet publicly viewable thread.

The patrol method can really come to life in a camporee setting. I suggest that whatever you do to make things "fair", don't encourage or force troop patrols to break apart and abandon the patrol method to fit into a camporee "patrol" model. No benefit to camporee administration justifies destroying the cohesiveness of a patrol. My son still has a lingering distaste for camporees after one year the "system" pulled him out of his patrol and into another one, to make things "fair". It wasn't fair to him or to his patrol. And it really wasn't fair to the patrol he was put into because their performance was skewed from what they were really capable of as their own patrol. The supposed benefits to camporee patrol manipulations is trivial compared to the lasting disruption to patrol spirit and teamwork that results.

What is a senior patrol? Why would any patrol be not permitted to participate?

Rinso white, Rinso bright ...

No, it's because of people that hire lawyers to get free money to make good on all the little slights that happen in that terrible existence we call "life". It's just terrible about that poor innocent girl that had her life ruined forever when she violated the rules by wearing earrings and got her ear ripped off the side of her head. Did the earring manufacturer get sued too? All the more reason to help young people make ethical choices over their lifetimes.

Playing these kinds of insurance games just perpetuates the system. What would they say if the kid told them they were imposing too much governmental red tape and I'll go do my no-charge service for somebody else. Don't they understand that a teenage boy doesn't have insurance to protect the old lady he helps across the street??

Its part of the boogeyman syndrome. I don't know anything about whatever it is, but by God its agonna get you. You never know, be prepared and all that rot. Then there's the other extreme where the self-proclaimed stuffed shirt insurance and legal expert declares there's no problem letting the Cub Scouts play russian roulette with a .357 mag in the den leader's back yard; you're covered as long as they're wearing the uniform.

Tell him for me "Good job, man!" He did all the work, but credit goes to Mom and Dad too for supporting him along the way.

Hey, heres a thought. If uniform patches are discretionary, how about a homemade patch of the 1-fingered salute with U.P. DONT TAZ ME BRO underneath. It could be 8 square and positioned on the back of the uniform shirt. The Insignia Guide is silent on this so it should be OK.

"I was also not aware the flag was optional." Gee, I was not aware that what we may find on a personal internet web site constitutes BSA policy. Where can we find "flag optional" in a Scout pub?

"If I swapped out my incorrectly oriented flag patch with a correctly oriented one, could the U.P. taz me?" If you were in the Army, would it be correct to swap out the standard issue flag for an opposite flag? With respect to the Scout uniform, "correct" is what the uniform comes with. What is a "u.p. taz?

Well, since the Scout uniform does not have a flag streaming in the breeze as the person walks forward, we should be safe. Plus, the Scout uniform is not an army uniform. We don't carry the flag into battle.

I have to agree with OGE. You know, it could be that in that part of the country people are just a little different. Cookie-cutter rules dont always work and we have to be able to adapt to local needs. Thats why the SM, the troop committee, even parents are encouraged to interpret the BSA program as needed. Besides, it could be that the chartered organization has certain rules we arent privvy to, and we all know that CO rules trumps the BSA program. After all, its for the boys and we all know those pencil pushin' geeks in Irving dont know nuthin except how perpetuate their own existence and steal money from Scouts at every opportunity.

"As far as the uniforms go...our pack only asks for the boys to wear the shirts w/necker" Rather than redefining the uniform or granting permission to wear less than the uniform, why not let them know what the uniform IS, and remain silent if they choose to wear only part of it.

"... but if anyone can cite the periodicity from a national BSA publication. I would certainly appreciate it." "I've asked for this for years and have yet to see this." In the olden days I would spend days tearing through publications looking for a purported policy cited by others around the Scouting water cooler. At some point you finally realize that there is no such policy. Save some time and ask the person quoting the policy to show you where that can be found in which publication.

We all have the exact same information and make comments and offer personal opinions based on limited facts, myself included. Several here have concluded that adult leader hanky-panky at 3 am is no big deal. I take a different view; it is a big deal. A full set of facts in a specific case does not shape my personal thoughts on morality and character. Children learn behaviors by watching and emulating the actions and attitudes of other adults. Adults demonstrate their character and morals through their everyday actions. Children observe adult actions, inactions, comments, behaviors, philosophies, and evaluate them. It doesnt matter whether any boys did or did not see the tent bouncing up and down at 3 AM. Character, morals, ethics, and principles are with a person all the time. One cannot purport to teach Scouting values and then temporarily discard those values for a 3 AM tryst. Kids arent fooled, and neither should those charged with selecting adult Scout leaders.

"It properly belongs in the hands of the CC, COR, and IH ... and certainly not the parents." Yes it is the job of the CO to remove adult leaders, and select them. Parent input can come when the CO is looking for comments about the qualifications for adult leader positions. And of course parents have the final say as to whether they want their sons in the care of adults that lack the character they want their sons to develop. Personally, I'd have a very hard time supporting and encouraging my son in a program with adult leaders that place a higher value on their personal pleasure and "free sex with anyone" than on their life partner and family. A role model with this demonstrated lack of values just does not mesh with the values we teach in Scouting. Keeping either of these leaders would be a bad choice, in my opinion. Values and character is serious stuff and if we blow it off, so will our children.

I like Eamonns approach. If the court of honor is still pending it would not be inappropriate to review all the advancements and merit badges since the last one. I would suggest writting a policy or proceedure statement and handing it out to everyone, saying This is how we do things for now on. The policy is already found in each boys Handbook, and a simple All of the requirements found in your Handbook need to be completed before you can advance to the next rank should suffice. Same for the troop committee; the policies are already found in the Advancement book.

"I am about to require green camoflauge zip pants found at Target... " And what do you tell the kid that wants to wear the real Cub Scout uniform? What is "verboten" is requiring street clothes as a uniform, pseudo-military clothes from walmart or elsewhere included. Imitation of military uniforms is specifically prohibited. Refer to the the Insignia Guide.

"I wonder why it was moved OUT of the Issues and Politics Forum, where it originated?" I moved it out of Issues & Politics because the thread topic does not involve God, religion, politics, homosexual topics, or subjects unrelated to Scouting. Should the discussion turn in those directions it may be moved back. If someone wants to change the original topic, a spin-off is better than a highjack.

"All it will take to destroy the program is for us to invest as leaders the very people who esteem the values so little." Ideally, the chartered organization selects adult leaders with good character and values. If it develops later that a leader does not model the behaviors and morals we want to teach our children, the CO should replace the leader. BSA leaves leader selection to the chartered organization. I wonder if either of these two adults would have been selected as leaders if the midnight tent incident occurred before they were leaders. They said they are "sorry". Are they sorry about the choice they made, or sorry about being discovered? I do find it interesting that this incident is repeatedly referred to as a "mistake". Sounds more like a premeditated choice. A mistake would be if he went to the wrong tent.

Yeah, why quibble and sweat over a small detail? Surely no JLT/NYLT course director is going to get all bent out of shape when he learns it's a temp patch, not a Jamboree patch. And if a kid is all excited about wearing his new patch, surely he would be just as excited wearing it correctly. It really is such a small thing to let the recipients know the correct information about where to wear it, I can not imagine why anyone would insist on telling boys wrong.