FScouter

The boy learned a lesson. Earrings on boys is not universally embraced by society. The Board was out of line, but I still think it is a trivial thing, and to quit Scouting over it seems like a severe reaction. The boy is going to have aa tough time later in life if he always insists on "standing his ground" over petty stuff.

"The Scout stood his ground, left the room and evidently the Troop along with his dad, an ASM." He and his dad quit over this? Seems like a mighty severe reaction over such a trivial bit of individuality.

I dont know what a thought experiment is, or a slippery slope. I'm not sure all rules are of equal importance. I'm not sure which rules can be safely ignored or altered. Perhaps our national organization should rank them in order of importance. They could then tell us that rules with a lower importance ranking may be ignored or altered at the discretion of the local unit. Maybe that would help? If our BSA uniform policies are bad, they absolutely should be changed. Since they are written at the national level, they should be changed at the national level. Have you voiced your concerns to the chairman of the national uniform design committee? Personally, I'm happy to take rules and policies as written. I'm not on the committee and just don't have time to worry about how defensible the rules are.

"Was I violating G2SS rules in doing so?" Was your visit one-on-one contact?

"Not to change the subject but is the link:www.jltbsa.org a BSA page or what?" That site says it is provided by woodbadge.org, which is not affiliated with BSA.

"Making barriers and placing obstacles only take away from our mission." YES. Enticing volunteers and selecting one works better in the long run than forced labor.

How about a game of Capture the Flag?

A uniform look is not a uniform. The "uniform look" among the rogue boys and adults in your unit will clash with the uniform the rest of the unit wears. Or does your custom rule say boys are not allowed to wear BSA pants? This is good? You seem to be advocating a practice of writing custom rules against parts of the program you don't like. "Everybody" hates something. Should we write a rule at the unit level to change whatever it is we don't like? Explain why is it a good practice for your unit leadership to institute a custom policy against the established rules of our organization? Any organization would be in chaos if its members ignore the rules that govern them whenever they don't like those rules. "Everybody" hates writing tour permits. Should we write a rule exempting ourselves from that? "Everybody" doesn't like paying the $10 registration fee. Should we write a rule that we don't have to pay? "Everybody" hates fundraising restrictions. Should we write a rule allowing a Las Vegas night fundraiser, complete with booze, gambling, and dancing girls? Our organization would be mighty disorganized if it's members were to pick and choose what rules they want to follow, and add their own custom rules. This is good?

"That is strange cause I seen leaders wearing them above the right pocket." It's easy to see lots of stuff that is not correct. Same as hearing wrong info too. The Insignia Guide specifies the locations for insignia. If it's not listed, it goes in the temporary location on the right pocket. If you're challenged about it, ask to see the written source that says otherwise.

How about this: The PLC re-defines the BSA uniform by eliminating Scout pants and substituting greenjeans. Their action is condoned by the adult leadership, despite being clearly against BSA rules and regs. Here's the challenge: explain precisely why this is a good decision.

Perhaps the campmaster should write to the offending unit that they did not honor the terms of the tour permit and that assurances must be made that a similar violation will not occur in the future. CC: Scout Exec.

I sure BSA would be happy to get your input. Maybe you could ask to be a part of the uniform design committee. Meanwhile ...

Headwear, neckerchief, and belt options are discussed in the Insignia Guide. Beyond that, BSA has not given options to units. If any pants options come down the pike, BSA will let us know.

My personal opinions are ... mine. Putting it another way, my personal opinion is that some objectors place more importance on their personal likes and dislikes than they do on wearing the uniform as designed and promulgated by our national organization. Id say the exchange goes more like: I dont like what is. But we have an obligation to do what is. Well, I have a different idea, so Im going to do that instead. Discussing changes is fine. Departing from the established standard is arrogant. The message communicated, either spoken or unspoken, is that if I dont like scratchy socks, Im excused from wearing them. Again, no personal offense intended.

I am talking about measured changes within parameters to better serve the Scouts and their families. Sounds OK to me. I have no objection to BSA making changes to the uniform. If and when BSA makes a change to the uniform, the responsibility of us adult leaders will be to embrace the changes and implement them in our units. Until that happens, our responsibility is to embrace and implement the current uniform in our units. I strongly object to any suggestion that custom changes may be made at the unit level. It is irresponsible and detrimental to our organization for individual members and individual units to ignore the uniform, make substitutions, or to otherwise tweak it to satisfy personal likes and dislikes.

"...the card games were causing no problems when they were allowed, and it kept the scouts busy." I'd say we're in a heap of trouble if we need card games to keep Scouts busy.

Hunt, and others. No intention to offend. My personal opinion is that uniform objectors don't like being told to wear specific uniform clothes. They don't believe their personal objection is a valid enough reason to not wear. So they make up a myriad of other excuses to not wear. As if a valid argument might be: If the price is too high, I don't have to wear it. If the quality is bad, I don't have to wear it. If the fit is bad, I don't have to ... If whatever I don't like, I don't have to ... Then come the testimonials about price, fit, fabric, etc. etc. If enough other objectors agree with them, they feel justified. "Finally one of the dads just said that they don't want to look like scouts, and thats why they are wearing blue jeans." At least the dad had guts enough to state his real reason. Bottom line for me is there is no excuse at all for not wearing the Boy Scout uniform. Just my personal opinion with no intention to offend.

"When I am forced to pay premium prices, I expect ..." When I buy a BSA product I expect to get what is. I don't expect BSA to meet my personal standard. "It seems that some people think that any change to the uniform is tantamount to heresy." I suppose some people may think that, but the uniform has not changed. I will happily embrace any uniform change BSA implements. Heresey is when individuals or units make their own custom changes because they don't like what is, or don't like being told what is. There's stuff about BSA that I don't like. But I don't skip that part or change it because I don't like it.

Lack of participation. Lack of efficiency. Leftover food. These are challenges for the patrol to overcome. Overcoming them builds skills that will help boys later in their lives. The ASPL sees the 3-bottles-of-ketchup issue and has a possible solution. The problem with his solution is that he takes away the opportunity for the boys in the patrol to devise their own creative solutions. What other possibilities did he consider? Here's a few to consider. Maybe none are any good. But it gets the boys in the patrol to think about alternatives. Buy a smaller bottle. Save the leftover bottle for the next time. Buy individual squeezy packs. Devise a menu that uses ketchup as a significant ingredient. Use something other than ketchup. Maybe their first choice doesn't work out. That's a good thing because they learned something. Now they can consider other alternatives. How can they go through this process if one boy, the ASPL, takes away the problem? What did the boys learn? They learned they don't have to worry about stuff because somebody removed the obstacles. I believe it is the responsibility of the adult leaders to guide the boy leadership to discovering solutions that work within the methods of Scouting. I would say to the ASPL that his idea has merit, but that because the patrol method is part of Scouting, we must find solutions that do not take away the responsibilities of the patrol.

I'd question the plusses you listed. Reducing the amount of cooking gear is not a Scouting objective. Reducing food waste is something the boys should be concerned about and work to avoid - within their patrol. When the food waste issue is removed, how can they learn to deal with it? Reducing the gear hauled sounds like an adult thing. I'd be careful about tweaking the patrol method to make life easier for the adults. Patrol spirit and teamwork is developed within the patrol. Removing patrol responsibilities removes opportunities for patrol spirit and patrol teamwork. Minus - It doesn't take 8 boys to cook. Or to wash dishes. Or to build a fire. Or draw water. The biggest minus I see is that the patrol method is cast aside for the sake of an adult vision of efficiency. Young boys are not born efficient. They need to learn it and they can't learn it if the adults have streamlined things to remove the learning opportunities. A lean, efficient, smooth operation is means nothing if the boys have not overcome the obstacles to get there. Go with the patrol method and all of the "problems" it presents and let the boys learn.

"It makes it difficult for me to argue against the "generic" olive dockers." If the objective was for the boys to all wear exactly the same color, you might have a point. But wearing the same color is not the objective. The objective is to wear the Boy Scout uniform. "Son, you're not wearing your uniform." "But I'm wearing dockers that are exactly the same color!" "That's nice, but dockers is not the uniform."

You need to go learn Spanish.

When I need new clothes I go to the store. I get to walk up and down the aisles and pick through hundreds and hundreds of styles, fabrics, and colors. Then I pick what most tickles my fancy. I love it, because I picked it out myself. And if later I decide I dont like it so much, it gets pushed to the back of the closet and I go buy something else. I wear what I like, and Im in total control of what I wear. With the uniform, its different. Joe Scouter gets no choice. There is only one store. There is never a sale. Its not my clothes. Its somebody elses choice, somebody elses clothes. Joe has no control. He is told when and where and how he must wear these clothes. He doesnt like that. He is an independent thinker. He hasnt been dressed by anyone since he was 6 years old. He thinks to himself They cant do this to me! I wont put up with this nonsense. He decides to hate the Boy Scout uniform. He wears only part of it. He makes substitutions. He looks for reasons to not wear it. He complains about it. What is the one real objection? Its not the fit, the material, the color, or the cost. Its not the style, the patches, or the durability. It is the idea that someone else has dictated what the uniform shall be. There is only one rack to choose from. The underlying objection is the loss of control, the loss of choice. I would only hope that as responsible adult leaders we could rise above personal objections to dressing in the Boy Scout uniform. I would hope we could all be proud to wear it, and support the organization that we belong to. It is really too much to ask to wear the uniform of our organization? Can we not rise above and make the right choice?

Gee, I wonder what BSA (a non-profit) does with all the "profits" they make from product sales? Seems like I heard something about that at an FOS presentation.

"What? And lose sales???" Are you volunteering to do the job?