FScouter

"What do you do when you have 20 boys show up for each activity and only 4 for each campout?". I'd say get enough drivers, go and have a fun time. They will get credit for participating in a troop activity. When they reach 10 activities, they have met that requirement for the rank advancement. Those boys that have lots of camping activities will have had more opportunities to meet the other rank requirements. Those that only attend entertainment activities will have a more difficult time meeting the other rank requirements. So what could be the purpose of the SM making up a "camping only" rule? Who knows, but it looks like he enjoys playing the role of the "big boss".

JD - This may be a simplification of your response to Eamonn's question, but allow me. You make up a troop rule. A boy violates the rule and when called on it he says the rule is stupid. You cross-examine him as to why the rule is stupid. If his answers meet with your approval, he is excused from the rule. Does this mean you've been convinced that the rule is bad and should be repealed? And if so, maybe it should not have been imposed in the first place. That approach may work with a rule imposed by a Scoutmaster. I'm not sure we would want a boy to take that approach with a law in the community. Break a law, maybe get caught. If caught, argue with the judge about why the law is stupid.

Think like a Boy Scout reading his book. Does the requirement sound like "camping only"? What would you call things the patrol or troop does together if you don't call them "activities"?

OOOH! I think I can answer this one. Lessee ... Bringing a pistol to school ranks higher than brining a pocketknife. Right? Sooo, that means it is OK to bring a pocketknife?? Or maybe that is still too high a rank. Talking out of turn in class must be a lot lower rank so that must always be OK. Right?? This is fun! What is the recommended way to teach this ranking system to kids? How do we make sure they rank rules in the correct order?

It sounds like some here believe that all the rules cannot be adhered to simultaneously and we must somehow devise a method to select which will be followed and which will not. We would not allow a boy and an adult leader to sleep together in a tent. But we would allow a leader to skip the uniform? Cannot we follow both rules? Must we pick one over the other? There is no need to prioritize or rank the relative importance of rules unless the intention is to skip the ones ranked low on the list. The way I look at it, the only purpose of prioritizing rules is to give oneself "moral permission" to not follow them. Another approach to give yourself permission is to call the rules you dont like guidelines. Is it more ethically acceptable to violate a guideline than a rule? The speed limit is not a rule, its only a guideline, so I dont have to abide by it. The uniform rules are not really rules, theyre only guidelines, so I dont have to abide by them. Another approach weve heard is that if a rule is not enforced, its OK to violate it. How ethical is that? This is all so transparent. Ones character shows through all the mumbo-jumbo about wise judgment and hierarchy of importance.

Somehow I don't think our mission of teaching boys to make ethical decisions means teaching them to rank the importance of laws and which ones may be safely ignored or violated.

Are the 2-deep nazis, the axe nazis, and the boat nazis more holy than the uniform nazis? We don't need no stinkin' nazis. We need leaders that follow the program. What is the purpose in ranking the relative importance of program elements, unless our intent is to ingore elements deemed low on the scale?

I groan every time I hear that trite, moronic term.

The answer is ... as soon as he has completed the requirements, which may be found on the back pages of the Boy Scout Handbook. 1st Class, Star, and Life ranks must be held a minimum of 6 months each. All the answers you need in Scouting can be found in the BSA publications. Start with the Boy Scout handbook and Scoutmaster handbook.

"Baby sitters of america" is clever?

I think we would get better uniforming results if adult leaders would accept the uniform as it is and wear it correctly. If it changes in the next 10 years, so be it. But today the uniform is what it is. We can wear it and hate it, or don't wear it and hate it. Or take a positive view and wear it and enjoy it. It's more fun to enjoy Scouting than wistfully wishing it was something it is not. Negativity is so depressing.

BSA publications do not address documenting disciplinary issues because there is no need to do so. There is nothing the troop needs to defend. Get on with the program and forget about this. Bob White has the best advice here.

At our recent ordeal the boys were told not to attempt to wash their new sashes because the dye in the red embroidery would bleed into the white sash. Has anyone experienced this? Maybe the newer sashes are not colorfast?

"This doesn't have to be a bad thing, just hide behind the program and do your thing, it's going to be fine." Hiding? The lamentation was that a Life scout is working on the Eagle rank and his last swim check showed all he can do is dog paddle. OneHour questions whether he can earn Eagle. Ed wants to question him to see if he is trustworthy. Should the boy be kicked back to Tenderfoot? What would you do?

"If he is trustworthy, you should be able to ask him about this & get a truthful answer." Why would you even ask him, and what difference does it make? If he says he did no swimming for the rank requirements, you will do what? If he says he did swim for the rank requirements, you will do what?

Not likely a mistake, but updates occur periodically. I believe the most current revision of the Scoutmaster Handbook is #33009B. The letter suffix indicates which revision, 'B' being a later revision than 'A'. Maybe you have a later revision 'C'? Meamemg pointed out that the very latest update of the adult leader application says assistant Webelos den leaders may be 18+, whereas the Cub Scout Leader book from 2 years ago says 21+.

"I had a talk with my DE about this... he said... that if we all went to the Cabin as friends.. no Scout agenda.. than there would not be an issue..." I'm surprised and a bit dismayed that a professional scouter would say such a thing. That's almost an invitation to do all kinds of prohibited activities with Scouts: exploring an abandoned mine, parachuting, hunting, hang-gliding. Just say "we're not Scouts today and everything is OK". If it is discussed at a Scout meeting, attended by Scouts, led by Scout leaders, then it's a Scout event regardless of what you call it. Your blanket idea seems a reasonable accommodation given the circumstances.

Like Barry said, the Guide to Safe Scouting says 2-deep leadership is required for trips and outings. It does not say meetings and cars. It also says one-on-one contact is not permitted. 2-deep is always a good idea, but other than trips and outings, not having 2 adults is not a violation of youth protection rules. I would never cancel a troop meeting at the last moment solely because a second adult was not available.

"...someone with a "bully" mentality can gain control of the discussion." Once you have decided to remove someone, there is no discussion. Two individuals from the unit inform the individual what has been decided. The decision is final. You may not attend unit functions or participate in any way. Sorry we weren't able to work things out, but as of now the unit will be moving forward without you. Have a nice day, goodbye. Done.

I'd like to know what you all would like the parents to actually do instead of dropping off their boy. They would come in the front door, say "hi" to the SM and to each other. Then what? I'm wondering if there is a little bit of resentment towards parents, and why? What exactly are you all expecting them to do? What exactly do you all want them to do to be "involved"? Moral support? or ??

All adult leaders in Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts must be at least 21 years old with 3 exceptions: - An assistant Scoutmaster must be at least 18. (The assistant must be at least 21 to replace the SM in his absence.) - An assistant Den Leader must be at least 18 (an assistant Webelos DL must be at least 21) - An assistant Cubmaster must be at least 18. Assistants work side-by-side with the 21+ year old leader they are assisting. A committee member works primarily independently. Refer to the Troop Committee Guidebook and the Cub Scout Leader book.

Letters are for wimps. If your decision is to remove an individual from the unit, do it in person. Follow up with a confirming letter if you want a permanent record.

"... your responses seem to be challenging her on the who can earn the Whittling Chip." I know exactly what jteamnmj is saying, as in my earlier days, I've been there many times. She want her son to earn the chip. The Cubmaster (or whoever) says "no way". She asks around, gets conflicting opinions. She wants a printed publication to settle the issue. It would be great if there was a publication that said "Cubs of any age may earn the chip", but there isn't. My general stance is that statements from others presented as "facts" are only opinions unless they can be supported in the publications. Talk is cheap, but show me on what page that "fact" can be found. Otherwise it's just another personal opinion and I'll consider it with all the others before I make my own conclusion. So, my response to jteamnmj is what I would ask of the Cubmaster (or whoever) that is saying "no way". Show me where I can read that and learn more about it. I'd much rather hear something to the effect that "some Wolf dens teach this, but I prefer to wait and cover it as part of the Bear program because there are so many other things Wolves can do, and waiting one year will help ensure that they will have a successful whittling experience", or words to that effect. Much less arrogant than NOT ALLOWED.

"They went as ONE PATROL..." Therein lies part of the problem. 11 is too many for one patrol. No patrol identity. This kind of tweaking by "efficiency-minded" adults is very detrimental. The designated boy leaders of this kind of one-event patrol really don't have the close ties to the other boys that are found in a normal patrol. I've seen these kind of campout arrangements deteriorate into an every-man-for-himself mentality.

"Can anyone show me were they talk about Knives in the Wolf handbook?" Perhaps the question should be "on what page does it say Wolves may NOT? or "on what page does it say Bears ONLY?" What about a boy entering as a Webelos? Tough luck?