fred8033

From what I understand ... BSA doesn't want service projects to be primarily fundraisers because #1 Friends Of Scouting and #2 popcorn sales. That's how BSA finances professionals, camps and much more. If people started donating cash to Eagle projects all the time, they'd feel their good deed was done and then not donate to Friends Of Scouting. Or buy the popcorn which itself is essentially just a donation. It's not that scouts doing fundraiers is bad or there is automatically more value in physical labor. The fundraising restriction is BSA's way to reduce competition for the almighty dollar. (This message has been edited by fred8033)

Some cool ideas for tents. I really wish we could afford some of these tents. I'd love to get one of those Icelandic tents to have an entire patrol share a tent. On the flip side, I like smaller tent camping because two people can fall asleep fairly quickly. But ten scouts in a room and they are up all night and need to be watched so that the stupidity level doesn't get too high. http://www.blacksofgreenock.co.uk/acatalog/patrol-tents.html http://shop.scouts.org.uk/c-76-group-tents.aspx

Gotta admit, I think Sunday night meetings would work great. And very appropriate for a Sunday. Just think about drying out tents or cleaning up the trailer or other meaningful activities.

I'm betting within five years. It will be as with many things ... fought and protested and the end change will be much ado about nothing. As much as we complain about BSA's backroom old boy's national leadership, that same leadership style could make this an easy change.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

snugharborlabs - Sounds like your troop is working hard. Gotta applaud that. Just focus on giving this scout a good experience so that in the future he naturally leans toward helping others and giving service as part of his personality. That's the important part. As for service projects, we never have trouble with them. - We do a small service project on virtually ever camp out (scout camp, state park, other). The SPL asks if there's a service project the scouts can do. Usually a one hour project or less. - We do a few hours of service for our charter organization once or twice a year. Cleaning the grounds or other. - Many scouts do service at their church, school or other community group.

You are going to get answers all over the board on this. As such, I'd use the basic rule of thumb that if the scout is doing a good deed, then congratulate him and get out of the way. Officially speaking, I'd look at two things from the Guide To Advancement, http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf . GTA 4.2.3.3 Service Projects - Essentially leaves it open to the scoutmaster. The only real key is pre-approval. But even that is scoutmaster perogative. IMHO, a perfect example would be a scout walking up to the SM (or an ASM) and saying "I'm going to work on Timmy's eagle project this weekend. Can I use that for my Star rank service project requirements?". Scout thought ahead and asked. Not going for star rank and looking to hodge podge together service. ... Scoutmaster perogative. Lots of flexibility. Nothing strictly required each individual scout to talk with scoutmaster. Could be group approval too. GTA 9.0.2.10 Fundraising Issues - Says "eagle" projects can't be fundraisers for the sake of raising funds. Okay to raise funds to get materials to work your project. Not okay to raising funds to donate money. Not directly applying to your case, but I think it's an important message. We want the scouts doing something tangible. In your case, I'd be 100% fine with the scouts plans. My only comment is that it seems pretty darn formal process for just a star life servic project. ... That gets to the heart of my response. Star and Life service projects are definitely NOT mini-Eagle service projects. No signatures are needed. No write ups are needed. If your troop wants to do that, I don't see anything officially written saying you can't add as much burocracy as you want. But the emphasis for star and life is doing a good deed. Again ... IMHO ... the best time to discuss service project for the star rank is at the first class scoutmaster conference. Take a moment as part of the scoutmaster encouraging advancement to ask if the scout has ideas what he'll do for service for the next rank. A friendly conversation is enough. ... IMHO. ... Now if you want to get "legalistic" the scout doesn't even need to talk to the scoutmaster. The requirement is "While a #### Scout, take part in service projects totaling at least #### hours of work. These projects must be approved by your Scoutmaster." - So if your SPL arranges with a camp ranger to clear brush for an hour on a weekend camp and your scoutmaster agrees, the time should count. - If a scout has an approved service project, another scout can help out. No official need to talk with the scoutmaster because the project is already approved. ... I think the key points are... - Doing a good deed for others and recognizing that's what we do because we are scouts ... and because we are citizens ... and because we are people of faith ... and because that's one what person does for another. - Giving the scoutmaster a chance to have feedback into the service project ... for safety ... for consideration ... for coordination ... for simple planning. For example, if a scout want's to use his time as an alterboy to count as service, I'd hope he'd talk to the scoutmaster. I know our scoutmaster would count it. But it's really a matter of communication. .... To be blunt and I apologize if I offend, it sounds like your troop is over the top on what's to be done for service projects for star and life. If many troops do this, you can count on two more pages being added to the GTA. (This message has been edited by fred8033)

I would be very interested to understand... Where the tradition of eagle scouts planning their own COH started? Where it started as a separate event from a normal COH? Where it became so much more formal filled pomp than all the other ranks? Our troop usually does separate ECOH planned by the scout family. We had one recently that was just part of the normal troop COH. I much prefer the normal troop COH, planned by the troop and including recognizing the new Eagle scout. I'm not trying to diminish eagle. I'd just rather see it as a troop event.

Scout Oath and Law are all that are needed. To deal with disrespect, bullying and teasing is a matter of knowing the scouts and dealing with issues in a timely way. The Oath and Law spells it out in a very simple way. We had a new scout who pushed those limits this summer. Picking on new scouts. SM, an ASM and me (CC) sat with him at a picnic table on camp and said it was not acceptible. That it was a membership issue. It repeated. We repeated. One the next occurance we indicated the next incident would require notifying his parents. Any incident after and he would be going home. I can't say he was better, but he was much much improved. All we used was scout oath and law. Really all that's needed.

Link failed because I punctuated the sentence with a period. Try it without a period in the URL. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf Page 21.

bnelson44 wrote: "The EBOR is not a job interview, at least it isn't intended to be one." I wish this was published somewhere. Our district EBOR leaders absolutely believe it is to be treated as a job interview. They've used that analysis time and time again. I disagree with that, but that's me. bnelson44 wrote: "If the Scout is walking into the room for a EBOR he should have for all intent and purposes already earned the rank." Fully agree. Scouts earn the rank. We are not hiring them as Eagle scouts. And it's an outlier for a EBOR to not approve a scout. .... As for mock EBORs, I don't see the purpose. Scouts have plenty of practice with BORs for tenderfoot, 2nd class, 1st class, star and life. They also have practice presenting thru their PORs and their eagle service project. A bit of prep time is a great idea, but a mock EBOR is more for the people wanting to inject themselves into the process than to help the eagle candidate. Heck, each EBOR I've been on is different enough that I don't think a mock run would help. Plus the scout has essentially already earned his rank. EBOR is just the last step. Let the EBOR happen as it will. Some are smooth. Others are bumpy. Fine. Let each scout have his own experience. .... I always feel strange when I'm in agreement with Beavah. I think I'll go take an asprin, eh.

funscout - Your quoting the old policies that were updated in 2011 with a more nuanced approach. Check this http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf. See page 21. I don't think BSA encourages an "active" percent, but BSA does allow units to define a reasonable level of involvement. Sorry to hear about your scout that missed Eagle. If it as you wrote, that's just mean. Especially considering how hard scouts work as camp staff and how little under 18 staff get paid. IMHO, camp staff is just slightly more than volunteer work. What a great way to tarnish the scout's experience in scouting. I wish he would have pushed it hard. I bet it would have happened but often 17 year old scouts have other priorities in life with school graduation, work and girl friends. Things like closing out their scouting trail can easily be set aside. Very sad especially when he had everything done. .... Also Beavah had the better answer for code of conduct. Scout oath and law. The rest is how you present, teach and use it.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

It's treating a symptom and not the disease. The troop problems are caused by the program, not the "active" rule used by the troop. The disease is not camping and not having a strong / fun program. I am saying this because you indicated the troop camps three times per year. Scouts invest their time where they get somehting out of it. And rightfully if the troop itself isn't "active", the scouts will find other places to spend their time. IMHO, you want to celebrate that and encourage scouts to explore all opportunities in life. For example, their high school bowling team awards dinner could very easily be more important to them then a troop COH. Just consider they probably have more bowling tournaments and trips than camp outs each year. The advancement requirements have plenty of expectations of being "active". And having a POR requires the scout do something as part of their role. I'd avoid the focus on defining "active" for the scouts because it's blaming the scouts for a troop issue. Also, "active" is difficult to fairly track and enforce. And if your going to have a code of conduct, let the PLC write it and update it. It is a scout run program and they will do a fine job with it. (This message has been edited by fred8033)

Didn't realize the troop was only ten scouts. Though not the smallest I've heard, it's hard to sustain at that size. Until your last comment, I had reversed routed and moved into the attitude to switch to the new startup troop. I do like the idea though of moving the whole troop over to the charter org of the pack that wants to start a unit. It would solve two issues with one action.

bigbovine - Your stuck in a hard situation. If the new troop will be created in any event, then you have a real decision. If it wouldn't be created without your help, let a sleeping dog lie. Beavah's right about numbers. Our city has seven troops and seven packs. Recruitment is a real issue. Hard feelings occur between units at recruitment time. Not much fun. Some years troops get enough new scouts. Other years they get almost zero. Not fun. I look forward to the one-unit concept being piloted in our council in the coming year. I hope to learn more about it soon. If the cub scout numbers just aren't there, hopefully someone puts an end to creating the new troop. ... The issue I have not seen mentioned is your son's experience. It was raised to consider what they want. But what about their new experience? It would definitely be different than what it would have been in the existing troop. What new opportunities would they gain and what would they lose? The key is that a boy's time in Boy Scouts is relatively short, four to seven years. And with the first three years being the most influenial as each of the first three years tend to be a different type of experience. If you start a new troop, what will their new experience be? Any friends to look forward to sharing a tent with other than their own brother? Enough boys their own age to do things with? Or are they one or two of the only boys in their age range? They might help start a new troop, but you would be separating them from a solid scouting experience into a new program that will take time to get off the ground and in which they won't have similar age friends. That's important as it affects if they stay in Boy Scouts for five or seven years. Unless your going to recruit new members from the existing troop which I would NOT do because it creates hard feelings. ... Another consideration is the personality of the troop. Odds are people want the existing troop to continue with a personality similar to what it has now. What is expected of the other troop? Will everyone be on the same page? Same idea and values? Same emphasis? If not, run away fast. ... Your in a hard situation. I sympathize with your wanting a near-by troop aligned with your pack and with wanting a smooth transition for your next son. If you stay with the existing troop, your next son could end up transitioning to the far-away troop without any friends. If you switch troops, I assume your sons will switch you and then they lose out on their existing friends. I wish you the best either way you go. Neither choice is perfect.

CPMom wrote: "Only one problem: He was the only adult leader in their campsite. Yeah, ummmm... That's not a little problem. Each unit, provisional or not, should have at least two leaders. This is a youth protection issue. .... Provisional units are a gamble. You need to start with a flexible, outgoing scout that can easily build friendships and can see good in others. Don't send a scout that can get easily frustrated or isn't that flexible. Don't send a scout that can be challenge. After that, it really depends on the combination of scout, unit leaders and other scouts. They might mix or might not mix. It really depends. I know several really good scouts that went on a jamboree only to be threatened several times by the adults with punishments. I know another scout that was positive and outgoing but felt like he was on the outside of a group of scouts that knew each other. They were a click and not looking for new temporary scouts to join them. Provisional units are a gamble.

Scout leader on KP - Make sure one of the scout leaders is on each KP duty roster and ideally sitting on each dining hall table. By doing that, they can make sure each scout gets a fair share of the food that's set out.

The following are a few of the things that we did differently this year that were really good improvements. - Parent talk - Every year as we gather to drive to summer camp, the SPL and SM talk to the scouts about a few subjects. This year during the scout talk, we took the parents about 150 feet away and had a parent talk. I'll probably forget part of it, but a few of the key points were... ---- Parents are welcome to camp with us and to observe any part of camp. No secrets. Just let us know their plans. ---- BUT we want the scouts to socialize with scouts and to work with scouts. ---- We asked that parents allow their scouts independence as that is a key part of being a scout. ---- We explained the role of the PL and SPL. ---- Further we asked that "adult" instruction, guidance and direction to be kept to the assigned SM and his two ASMs. We provided their names and pointed them out. ---- We also pointed out that of course if a matter of significant safety was involved, they are welcome to take immediate action. ---- If not an imminent safety issue, then all corrective actions / directions was to be thru the SM and his two ASMs. ---- We also explained that if their son or another scout asked for help, that we'd like them to direct the scout to his PL. If they did not know or couldn't find the PL, direct them to the SPL. If still an issue, then direct them to the SM and/or the ASMs. ---- This was a great way to start summer camp as the parents (existing and new scouts) got the immediate experience of having the scouts work together and the parents working together SEPARATELY. - Adult table - Our summer camp has a dinning hall. We had four tables. We assigned one of the tables as the adult table. Huge improvement. Scouts ate together. Adults ate separately and together. Sometimes with a full table. Sometimes with just a few. This is something that we will definitely continue in the future and will work to make it happen. - Split responsibility - We had adults responsible for adult stuff and scouts responsible for scout stuff. We did not freeload on the scouts hard work. Adults setup and bused our own table. Adults cleaned our own camp site. It kept us busy and emphasized to the adults that the scouts did their own thing. Also, it helped us set an example. So much of what the scouts learn they learn thru observing what others do.

qwazse wrote: "Have what candidates told you at your district EBORs had an impact on district program?" I have never seen it. Most district scouters already have strong opinions. I doubt feedback from a single EBOR would affect the district. But if it was coming from multiple EBORs, I bet the district would be already hearing it through other channels. Just my opinion. I think this is a key reason to do unit EBORs. A single EBOR could affect/change the unit. Those EBOR members from the unit have known the scout for years and will take his comments to heart. At a district EBOR, the EBOR members just don't know the scout and as such will not take any comments as seriously.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

I wonder if trading leadership jobs helps? In my 1st year as CC, it was a huge amount of work. In the 3rd year, it was easier. Now in year ten, it's pretty easy. I'd hate to switch to another role because I'd have to re-invest and figure out how to make that role work. Not that it's harder or easier. It's just different. To prevent burnout ... take breaks ... get to know the other adult volunteers. Become great friends with them, socialize and get to know them. Most importantly, have fun! No fun equals quick burnout.

I'd like to see our district change to unit EBORs. Our district is large and does well but has trouble staffing the EBORs. It affects the quality of the EBORs. Our district has about 100 troops with an average of one or two eagles per troop per year. That coordinating time and place for 450 to 600 reviewers, 100 to 200 scouts and their scoutmasters. That's a lot of work. Also they are a bit impersonal and ya get the feeling that most of the EBOR members are just trying to get through it. I myself can sit through one EBOR. Maybe two if it's a good set of adults that make it fun. By by the 3rd EBOR, I'm burnt out. It becomes a production mill. Plus they usually get stuck in really small rooms that you can barely fit a small table and six chairs into and still be able to open the door. I'd much rather see unit level EBORs. I could really see making them very special for the scouts involved. Have the scout escorted into the room. Make it both a review of his project and also a celebration and a reflection on their scouting career. I'd say also confirming the requirements are done, but the council registrar does a really good job of that before the EBOR is approved to move forward already. Plus I've yet to see a district EBOR that does any type of check that the requirements are done. So unless the scout makes a big mistake, the district EBOR is pretty much an automatic move forward event. I wish our district would move to unit EBORs. As the CC, I'd be glad to coordinate getting the district adv person to attend and to make it a very memorable event.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

BNelon44 quoting the GTA is useful. I'd walk right in with that information and ask for the certificate. I bet someone just didn't know what they were doing. Multiple times we've received a special certificate of insurance co-listing the city or some other group. For example, to have a float in the city parade, the city requires each group to provide proof of insurance with the city listed as an additional insured. One phone call to council. Then I get an email with a PDF certificate with the city listed as an additional insured. Done that one twice. Done a few others also. Usually does require a tour permit / plan though.

Arizona? Sell relocation maps to live somewhere it's not 110 in the shade. Just looked. Today's forcast is for thunderstorms in Tempe AZ. So much for a dry heat. Actually, I love AZ. Just not having my car sandblasted during wind storms or getting stuck there because it's too hot for the plane to get enough lift for take off.

G2SS says to use constructive discipline. Constructive discipline leaves a positive at the end. Push-ups leaves a sore muscles but doesn't address fixing the behavior or teaching about the behavior. All your doing is hoping the scout learns to avoid pain. Watch out the next time he won't be caught though. I think you have to do this on a situation by situation basis. #1 I'd look for an educational component so that both the WHY and HOW to avoid his behavior in the future. #2 I'd look for something to restore the damage done. That might mean paying for a broken tent. It might mean helping the patrol leader with his dishes. It really depends on who was affected by the behavior? What the behavior was? What opportunities do we have to make it a learning opportunity? Can we restore the situation? How can we make it a positive. An example we use in our own home is when one of my kids misbehaves or is not thoughtful toward his mother, he'll get to help his mother with the dishes. He won't be doing them by himself. Instead, he'll be in the kitchen right with her helping to get them done. ... ummm ... Same thing I do when I piss off my wife. I'll be right in there helping with the house chores hoping to fix the situation. I'd also make it clear to the scout that the task is not punishment as much as restoring his relationship with the person that his behavior affected. He him see the fairness in the task. I'd also mention that for many things we just deal with the educational component. A friendly smile. A reminder. A suggestion how to avoid it in the future. Scouts will pick up on that.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Glad to hear so many scouters have moved away from the punitive approach. It's teaching bad leadership. One article I read described such leadership as the "weenie" way out because you want to jump to the quick fix proclaiming your great solution without addressing the problem. I'll let others decide what the legal or professional oppinions are. IMHO, it's abusive and a power trip. There's ways to correct behavior without being punitive.

perdidochas - Your lucky then. From what I've seen in the last ten years, school administrators are forced to recommend expulsion by default. Anything less and they risk liability if anything else happens. Zero tolerance is a marketing term for zero liability risk and school employees having zero responsibility. I'll admit that I've seen some brave administrators knowingly minimize bad situations. Thus violating school policies. Bless their hearts. But very few do that anymore. The only good news is that there are groups beginning to push back. ... Here's the stats from my state for last year. I find it interesting that there was one gun expulsion and 36 pocket knife explusions. Kids are getting expelled for pocket knives. Note that the BSA standard boy scout pocket knife is 3" long and the cub scout knife is 2 and 3/4" long. Here's the stats... CLICK HERE .... The one that sticks in my head is this one from years ago. A student with just five tardies worked at a local grocery in the evenings on clean up. His job included using a box cutter to break up card board boxes. He left it in his car in his cup holder. Never threatened anyone. Never carried it on school grounds. Recommended for explusion! Instead received "just" a suspension. People call it a good result but I call it sad, foolish and pitiful. Why punish a boy who did nothing wrong? Why are hearings and punishments involved for something that's just a basic tool used by so so many people and that was part of his normal job? There is nothing fair about this in any way. http://www.startribune.com/local/north/29466674.html ... http://brainerddispatch.com/news/2012-05-10/eighth-grader-takes-pocket-knife-school http://www.overcriminalized.com/casestudy/Rankin-End-of-Pocket-Knife.aspx Farmer's son facing explusion for having a knife on him after morning chores. http://www.waconiapatriot.com/articles/2011/04/07/norwood_young_america_times/news/news02.txt Girl expelled for holding another girl's knife http://www.41nbc.com/news/local-news/3708-perry-student-suspension-controversy