fred8033

bnelson44 wrote: "The EBOR is not a job interview, at least it isn't intended to be one." I wish this was published somewhere. Our district EBOR leaders absolutely believe it is to be treated as a job interview. They've used that analysis time and time again. I disagree with that, but that's me. bnelson44 wrote: "If the Scout is walking into the room for a EBOR he should have for all intent and purposes already earned the rank." Fully agree. Scouts earn the rank. We are not hiring them as Eagle scouts. And it's an outlier for a EBOR to not approve a scout. .... As for mock EBORs, I don't see the purpose. Scouts have plenty of practice with BORs for tenderfoot, 2nd class, 1st class, star and life. They also have practice presenting thru their PORs and their eagle service project. A bit of prep time is a great idea, but a mock EBOR is more for the people wanting to inject themselves into the process than to help the eagle candidate. Heck, each EBOR I've been on is different enough that I don't think a mock run would help. Plus the scout has essentially already earned his rank. EBOR is just the last step. Let the EBOR happen as it will. Some are smooth. Others are bumpy. Fine. Let each scout have his own experience. .... I always feel strange when I'm in agreement with Beavah. I think I'll go take an asprin, eh.

funscout - Your quoting the old policies that were updated in 2011 with a more nuanced approach. Check this http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf. See page 21. I don't think BSA encourages an "active" percent, but BSA does allow units to define a reasonable level of involvement. Sorry to hear about your scout that missed Eagle. If it as you wrote, that's just mean. Especially considering how hard scouts work as camp staff and how little under 18 staff get paid. IMHO, camp staff is just slightly more than volunteer work. What a great way to tarnish the scout's experience in scouting. I wish he would have pushed it hard. I bet it would have happened but often 17 year old scouts have other priorities in life with school graduation, work and girl friends. Things like closing out their scouting trail can easily be set aside. Very sad especially when he had everything done. .... Also Beavah had the better answer for code of conduct. Scout oath and law. The rest is how you present, teach and use it.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

It's treating a symptom and not the disease. The troop problems are caused by the program, not the "active" rule used by the troop. The disease is not camping and not having a strong / fun program. I am saying this because you indicated the troop camps three times per year. Scouts invest their time where they get somehting out of it. And rightfully if the troop itself isn't "active", the scouts will find other places to spend their time. IMHO, you want to celebrate that and encourage scouts to explore all opportunities in life. For example, their high school bowling team awards dinner could very easily be more important to them then a troop COH. Just consider they probably have more bowling tournaments and trips than camp outs each year. The advancement requirements have plenty of expectations of being "active". And having a POR requires the scout do something as part of their role. I'd avoid the focus on defining "active" for the scouts because it's blaming the scouts for a troop issue. Also, "active" is difficult to fairly track and enforce. And if your going to have a code of conduct, let the PLC write it and update it. It is a scout run program and they will do a fine job with it. (This message has been edited by fred8033)

Didn't realize the troop was only ten scouts. Though not the smallest I've heard, it's hard to sustain at that size. Until your last comment, I had reversed routed and moved into the attitude to switch to the new startup troop. I do like the idea though of moving the whole troop over to the charter org of the pack that wants to start a unit. It would solve two issues with one action.

bigbovine - Your stuck in a hard situation. If the new troop will be created in any event, then you have a real decision. If it wouldn't be created without your help, let a sleeping dog lie. Beavah's right about numbers. Our city has seven troops and seven packs. Recruitment is a real issue. Hard feelings occur between units at recruitment time. Not much fun. Some years troops get enough new scouts. Other years they get almost zero. Not fun. I look forward to the one-unit concept being piloted in our council in the coming year. I hope to learn more about it soon. If the cub scout numbers just aren't there, hopefully someone puts an end to creating the new troop. ... The issue I have not seen mentioned is your son's experience. It was raised to consider what they want. But what about their new experience? It would definitely be different than what it would have been in the existing troop. What new opportunities would they gain and what would they lose? The key is that a boy's time in Boy Scouts is relatively short, four to seven years. And with the first three years being the most influenial as each of the first three years tend to be a different type of experience. If you start a new troop, what will their new experience be? Any friends to look forward to sharing a tent with other than their own brother? Enough boys their own age to do things with? Or are they one or two of the only boys in their age range? They might help start a new troop, but you would be separating them from a solid scouting experience into a new program that will take time to get off the ground and in which they won't have similar age friends. That's important as it affects if they stay in Boy Scouts for five or seven years. Unless your going to recruit new members from the existing troop which I would NOT do because it creates hard feelings. ... Another consideration is the personality of the troop. Odds are people want the existing troop to continue with a personality similar to what it has now. What is expected of the other troop? Will everyone be on the same page? Same idea and values? Same emphasis? If not, run away fast. ... Your in a hard situation. I sympathize with your wanting a near-by troop aligned with your pack and with wanting a smooth transition for your next son. If you stay with the existing troop, your next son could end up transitioning to the far-away troop without any friends. If you switch troops, I assume your sons will switch you and then they lose out on their existing friends. I wish you the best either way you go. Neither choice is perfect.

CPMom wrote: "Only one problem: He was the only adult leader in their campsite. Yeah, ummmm... That's not a little problem. Each unit, provisional or not, should have at least two leaders. This is a youth protection issue. .... Provisional units are a gamble. You need to start with a flexible, outgoing scout that can easily build friendships and can see good in others. Don't send a scout that can get easily frustrated or isn't that flexible. Don't send a scout that can be challenge. After that, it really depends on the combination of scout, unit leaders and other scouts. They might mix or might not mix. It really depends. I know several really good scouts that went on a jamboree only to be threatened several times by the adults with punishments. I know another scout that was positive and outgoing but felt like he was on the outside of a group of scouts that knew each other. They were a click and not looking for new temporary scouts to join them. Provisional units are a gamble.

Scout leader on KP - Make sure one of the scout leaders is on each KP duty roster and ideally sitting on each dining hall table. By doing that, they can make sure each scout gets a fair share of the food that's set out.

The following are a few of the things that we did differently this year that were really good improvements. - Parent talk - Every year as we gather to drive to summer camp, the SPL and SM talk to the scouts about a few subjects. This year during the scout talk, we took the parents about 150 feet away and had a parent talk. I'll probably forget part of it, but a few of the key points were... ---- Parents are welcome to camp with us and to observe any part of camp. No secrets. Just let us know their plans. ---- BUT we want the scouts to socialize with scouts and to work with scouts. ---- We asked that parents allow their scouts independence as that is a key part of being a scout. ---- We explained the role of the PL and SPL. ---- Further we asked that "adult" instruction, guidance and direction to be kept to the assigned SM and his two ASMs. We provided their names and pointed them out. ---- We also pointed out that of course if a matter of significant safety was involved, they are welcome to take immediate action. ---- If not an imminent safety issue, then all corrective actions / directions was to be thru the SM and his two ASMs. ---- We also explained that if their son or another scout asked for help, that we'd like them to direct the scout to his PL. If they did not know or couldn't find the PL, direct them to the SPL. If still an issue, then direct them to the SM and/or the ASMs. ---- This was a great way to start summer camp as the parents (existing and new scouts) got the immediate experience of having the scouts work together and the parents working together SEPARATELY. - Adult table - Our summer camp has a dinning hall. We had four tables. We assigned one of the tables as the adult table. Huge improvement. Scouts ate together. Adults ate separately and together. Sometimes with a full table. Sometimes with just a few. This is something that we will definitely continue in the future and will work to make it happen. - Split responsibility - We had adults responsible for adult stuff and scouts responsible for scout stuff. We did not freeload on the scouts hard work. Adults setup and bused our own table. Adults cleaned our own camp site. It kept us busy and emphasized to the adults that the scouts did their own thing. Also, it helped us set an example. So much of what the scouts learn they learn thru observing what others do.

qwazse wrote: "Have what candidates told you at your district EBORs had an impact on district program?" I have never seen it. Most district scouters already have strong opinions. I doubt feedback from a single EBOR would affect the district. But if it was coming from multiple EBORs, I bet the district would be already hearing it through other channels. Just my opinion. I think this is a key reason to do unit EBORs. A single EBOR could affect/change the unit. Those EBOR members from the unit have known the scout for years and will take his comments to heart. At a district EBOR, the EBOR members just don't know the scout and as such will not take any comments as seriously.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

I wonder if trading leadership jobs helps? In my 1st year as CC, it was a huge amount of work. In the 3rd year, it was easier. Now in year ten, it's pretty easy. I'd hate to switch to another role because I'd have to re-invest and figure out how to make that role work. Not that it's harder or easier. It's just different. To prevent burnout ... take breaks ... get to know the other adult volunteers. Become great friends with them, socialize and get to know them. Most importantly, have fun! No fun equals quick burnout.

I'd like to see our district change to unit EBORs. Our district is large and does well but has trouble staffing the EBORs. It affects the quality of the EBORs. Our district has about 100 troops with an average of one or two eagles per troop per year. That coordinating time and place for 450 to 600 reviewers, 100 to 200 scouts and their scoutmasters. That's a lot of work. Also they are a bit impersonal and ya get the feeling that most of the EBOR members are just trying to get through it. I myself can sit through one EBOR. Maybe two if it's a good set of adults that make it fun. By by the 3rd EBOR, I'm burnt out. It becomes a production mill. Plus they usually get stuck in really small rooms that you can barely fit a small table and six chairs into and still be able to open the door. I'd much rather see unit level EBORs. I could really see making them very special for the scouts involved. Have the scout escorted into the room. Make it both a review of his project and also a celebration and a reflection on their scouting career. I'd say also confirming the requirements are done, but the council registrar does a really good job of that before the EBOR is approved to move forward already. Plus I've yet to see a district EBOR that does any type of check that the requirements are done. So unless the scout makes a big mistake, the district EBOR is pretty much an automatic move forward event. I wish our district would move to unit EBORs. As the CC, I'd be glad to coordinate getting the district adv person to attend and to make it a very memorable event.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

BNelon44 quoting the GTA is useful. I'd walk right in with that information and ask for the certificate. I bet someone just didn't know what they were doing. Multiple times we've received a special certificate of insurance co-listing the city or some other group. For example, to have a float in the city parade, the city requires each group to provide proof of insurance with the city listed as an additional insured. One phone call to council. Then I get an email with a PDF certificate with the city listed as an additional insured. Done that one twice. Done a few others also. Usually does require a tour permit / plan though.

Arizona? Sell relocation maps to live somewhere it's not 110 in the shade. Just looked. Today's forcast is for thunderstorms in Tempe AZ. So much for a dry heat. Actually, I love AZ. Just not having my car sandblasted during wind storms or getting stuck there because it's too hot for the plane to get enough lift for take off.

G2SS says to use constructive discipline. Constructive discipline leaves a positive at the end. Push-ups leaves a sore muscles but doesn't address fixing the behavior or teaching about the behavior. All your doing is hoping the scout learns to avoid pain. Watch out the next time he won't be caught though. I think you have to do this on a situation by situation basis. #1 I'd look for an educational component so that both the WHY and HOW to avoid his behavior in the future. #2 I'd look for something to restore the damage done. That might mean paying for a broken tent. It might mean helping the patrol leader with his dishes. It really depends on who was affected by the behavior? What the behavior was? What opportunities do we have to make it a learning opportunity? Can we restore the situation? How can we make it a positive. An example we use in our own home is when one of my kids misbehaves or is not thoughtful toward his mother, he'll get to help his mother with the dishes. He won't be doing them by himself. Instead, he'll be in the kitchen right with her helping to get them done. ... ummm ... Same thing I do when I piss off my wife. I'll be right in there helping with the house chores hoping to fix the situation. I'd also make it clear to the scout that the task is not punishment as much as restoring his relationship with the person that his behavior affected. He him see the fairness in the task. I'd also mention that for many things we just deal with the educational component. A friendly smile. A reminder. A suggestion how to avoid it in the future. Scouts will pick up on that.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Glad to hear so many scouters have moved away from the punitive approach. It's teaching bad leadership. One article I read described such leadership as the "weenie" way out because you want to jump to the quick fix proclaiming your great solution without addressing the problem. I'll let others decide what the legal or professional oppinions are. IMHO, it's abusive and a power trip. There's ways to correct behavior without being punitive.

perdidochas - Your lucky then. From what I've seen in the last ten years, school administrators are forced to recommend expulsion by default. Anything less and they risk liability if anything else happens. Zero tolerance is a marketing term for zero liability risk and school employees having zero responsibility. I'll admit that I've seen some brave administrators knowingly minimize bad situations. Thus violating school policies. Bless their hearts. But very few do that anymore. The only good news is that there are groups beginning to push back. ... Here's the stats from my state for last year. I find it interesting that there was one gun expulsion and 36 pocket knife explusions. Kids are getting expelled for pocket knives. Note that the BSA standard boy scout pocket knife is 3" long and the cub scout knife is 2 and 3/4" long. Here's the stats... CLICK HERE .... The one that sticks in my head is this one from years ago. A student with just five tardies worked at a local grocery in the evenings on clean up. His job included using a box cutter to break up card board boxes. He left it in his car in his cup holder. Never threatened anyone. Never carried it on school grounds. Recommended for explusion! Instead received "just" a suspension. People call it a good result but I call it sad, foolish and pitiful. Why punish a boy who did nothing wrong? Why are hearings and punishments involved for something that's just a basic tool used by so so many people and that was part of his normal job? There is nothing fair about this in any way. http://www.startribune.com/local/north/29466674.html ... http://brainerddispatch.com/news/2012-05-10/eighth-grader-takes-pocket-knife-school http://www.overcriminalized.com/casestudy/Rankin-End-of-Pocket-Knife.aspx Farmer's son facing explusion for having a knife on him after morning chores. http://www.waconiapatriot.com/articles/2011/04/07/norwood_young_america_times/news/news02.txt Girl expelled for holding another girl's knife http://www.41nbc.com/news/local-news/3708-perry-student-suspension-controversy

Beavah - Getting on a tangent now, but I fully agree with you. As I think about it more, I'd really like to see unit level EBORs. Our district is large and does well but has trouble staffing the EBORs. It affects the quality of the EBORs. Though they are okay, they are a bit impersonal and ya get the feeling that most of the EBOR members are just trying to get through it. I'd much rather see unit level EBORs. I could really see making them very special for the scouts involved. Sort of a celebration and a reflection on their experiences. I'd say also confirming the requirements are done, but the council registrar does a really good job of that before the EBOR is approved to move forward already. Plus I've yet to see a district EBOR that does any type of check that the requirements are done. So unless the scout makes a big mistake, the district EBOR is pretty much an automatic move forward event. I wish our district would move to unit EBORs. As the CC, I'd be glad to coordinate getting the district adv person to attend and to make it a very memorable event.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Is there really any difference of opinion here? Eagle is not the goal. It's a tool / method. The Boy Scout Handbook is written to "use" advancement as a tool. Thus, it gives scouts Eagle as a tangible goal. The GTA and the BSA program in general was created to describe "how to use" advancement as a tool. Thus, it gives the guidance on how to use that tool and references BSA's goals and aims. It's no different than little league baseball. The ballplayer is there to learn skills, win games and win championships. The leagues goals are building confidence, physical fitness, working with others, etc.

IF the situation is as you said, quietly look at other troops now. Explain the situation as you just did. And if you can find a troop within a reasonable driving distance (hour ??), transfer troops and do it NOW. https://beascout.scouting.org

Lisabob wrote: ... "Dad was also surprised to learn that Eagles have their own COH now, he figured it would be part of the regular troop COH because that's how he remembers it being in his day - not some big hoopla almost like a graduation party. I know it's the scout's choice, but ... I recently attended a troop COH that finished with recognizing the new eagle scout. His mom and dad got their pins. His mentor got theirs. He took a special pledge. IMHO, it made the normal troop COH a very special event. I wish more more Eagle scouts choose to be recognized during a normal troop COH.

bnelon44 - Fully agree with you. I'm just getting really tired of the better-than-thou long-winded badgering wanton ignorance and sloppy logic. BSA isn't perfect, but it's pretty darn good. I just feel pain for the scouts that get stuck in such misdirected unit.

This thread assumes the conclusion that BSA is inconsistent or going down the wrong path. Guess what! There are people that disagree with that statement. I'm getting a little snippy with this type of discussion. And I fear it might be an escalating type of conversation. The type where one side has been holding it's breath slightly more politely putting up with alot of stuff. And now needs to vent. If you can't find a consistent path down BSA's program, it's because that's your view. Your stuck in attitudes that don't reflect BSA 2012. You can read any document and find ways to be argumentative and oppositional. But you can also read documents to find how they work together and complement each other. It's a choice. And so many "volunteers" choose an oppositional defiant interpretation. That's very sad. BSA documents do lay out a consistent program. But you need to want to see it. If your stuck wanting a different program, of course your going to have problems with the documents. It's not about idolizing BSA. It's not about blind legalism. It's about boundaries. It's about working together. It's about some level of consistency. And yes, it is about loyalty that we do owe both to our charter orgs and to BSA. From what I've seen, BSA is far more involved in the details then any charter org. All this manure about poor citizenship and legal mischief? It's just that. Manure. I could more accurately say that when the other side explicitly ignores the letter of the law for some vague intangible private vision, they are guilty of wanton negligence. And suggesting poor citizenship is the worst type of arrogance. What does it say about citizenship when you choose to ignore the most basic written statements from the organization you belong to. I do care about this stuff very much too. I've seen way to many old coots treat scouts poorly because they remember the past different than it was or try to implement a program that was their unit and not BSA then or now. I've seen too many grown adults get off on badgering scouts and stepping in the path of their advancement. ... One side accuses the other with terms such as legalism, credentialism, one-and-done, inexperienced, out-of-touch. The other side accuses with labels such as mean spirited, gate keeping, power mongering, going rogue, brain washing and creating their own program. I just see it as mean. ... I'm a little more understanding of units that go rogue risk their scouts lives on the very dangerous sport of laser tag. Oh my. (This message has been edited by fred8033)

Crew21_Adv wrote: "That each unit select co-facilitators and present that month. Most all of our units agreed to host (or co-host) a monthly theme. Our thought was, if they feel that they are active participants in Roundtable, this would add to their own personal value, up the game a little bit. Having each attending Scouting unit, be responsible for an education/program segment thru the year, has increased our attendance even greater. " What an absolutely great idea! Sort of moves the roundtable commisioner similar to unit commisioner. Commisioners are there for advice, but unit leaders implement the program. Moving that sort of thing into the district level too. I could see that NOVEMBER - Troop ## presents winter camping. Troop ## presents camping on an aircraft carrier. Pack ## presents local pack overnight camping. What a great way to get people to attend and get fresh presentations. Heck, every unit does something really well.

Crew21_Adv wrote: "That each unit select co-facilitators and present that month. Most all of our units agreed to host (or co-host) a monthly theme. Our thought was, if they feel that they are active participants in Roundtable, this would add to their own personal value, up the game a little bit. Having each attending Scouting unit, be responsible for an education/program segment thru the year, has increased our attendance even greater. " What an absolutely great idea! Sort of moves the roundtable commisioner similar to unit commisioner. Commisioners are there for advice, but unit leaders implement the program. Moving that sort of thing into the district level too. I could see that NOVEMBER - Troop ## presents winter camping. Troop ## presents camping on an aircraft carrier. Pack ## presents local pack overnight camping. What a great way to get people to attend and get fresh presentations. Heck, every unit does something really well.

Beavah - What is the document your quoting in the 7/4/2012: 9:39:17 PM post? It's out of date and sometimes contradicts the current BSA pubs. But I'll still read it if I can find it. I'm not saying the ideas are bad. I'm just saying they are superseded by the current program. But at least now I know where your getting this one-and-done protest kick. It's an outdated document that's currently out of favor. Or at least that part of the document did not continue on as part of current expectations.