fred8033

These days this violation is relatively minor. Plus, youth are affected by societal changes. States are legalizing. Current culture openly shows contempt. Youth are bound to be caught up in these changes. I find it hard to blame him any more than a 1950s youth that experimented with smoking when he comes from a home where a mom and dad smoke. Generally, I think your focus is wrong. If he is a member of your troop, he deserves the right to have an advancement path forward. That's part of being a member and one of the core scouting tools. We as leaders do not lay in the weeds waiting for the youth to reach a milestone that we will not let them pass. Either address the issue now or let it go. Like all good discipline, timeliness is key. If you don't feel like you can handle it now, then I'd question if it really is an issue to be handled in scouting. For me and mine, I think this is more a membership question and a question of the health of the troop. Will he bring this into the troop? Will he expose this other kids? Will other kids avoid the troop? Will other parents view the troop as a risk for their kids?

I've seen this happen too. Event time is not possible without prep time. We've had our prep time taken and had to re-scope and re-plan. It's not fun to take three hours of prep and do it all in 20 minutes. I feel sorry for the troop. Once the visitors and vendors are burnt by the experience, I doubt they'll invest the time and cost to go again. The troop just lost an event forever.

I hugely agree. We focus so much on teaching leadership, but we often don't do as well teaching what it means to be a team member or to support the leader. It's one thing that our troop historically did well. We often had the attitude that when one scout is working, then other scouts should be working too. You don't get to just sit and watch because your own job is done. I remember being on a camp out with another troop and having an epiphany that it was not the example I wanted my son to learn. My son and I arrived two hours late because of conflicts. My son and his tent mate started setting up their tent. I was sad because none of his patrol mates had helped his tent mate setup the tent earlier. And, none helped now. They just sat around because their work was done. While I was setting up my tent, none of the adults helped. They just sat around talking. In my main troop, it was a conscious practice that we had. If someone is working, you get up and ask how you can help. The patrol or senior scouts would have helped the lone scout setup the tent for him and his late arriving buddy. In addition, the other adults would have stopped gabbing and at least one or two would have come over to help setup my tent. It's friendly, helpful and part of building fellowship. While setting up my tent by myself, I was thinking to recent campouts with my main troop. The SPL would have encouraged the scouts to help. The SM would have encouraged the adults to set an example by helping instead of just sitting and chatting. When done and someone is still working, you find a way to help. And I've even had the scouts come over to ask if they could help. We'd all chat and laugh while working. But we had made a conscious decision that we wanted to emphasize in our troop that we help each other at all times. You don't get to rest just because your individual job is done. I'm strongly in favor of that. IMHO, it's less a job and more a duty roster.

This sounds more like I'm accustomed too seeing. Within a patrol, one guy has a title: the patrol leader. Maybe the APL too ... maybe. But the rest of jobs and responsibility. In advance of events and activities, someone is developing the menu and buying the food. Someone is also getting special gear needed for the camp out. For during activities and events, the PL makes sure the patrol work is spread out and shared. Assignments for cooking, getting water, etc etc etc. I always fear when I hear things such that everyone needs a job that it will get too formalized such that we are teaching middle-management instead of teaching leadership; that we start teaching bureaucracy instead of teaching taking care of your people and being a member of a team.

I briefly remember that from Woodbadge and I remember having a hard time matching that Woodbadge example with BSA teaching materials and past habits I've seen from my troops. I fear this is one of those where BSA teaching is not consistent and probably reflects internal differences of opinion of the BSA professional staff. At some point, we just need to make a program that works for our own troops. My troops don't publish a scout published newsletter for use by the scouts. Scouts text each other or chat face-to-face. The newsletters have been for parent consumption and are for coordination. Also, the patrols mainly follow the troop schedule with troop camp outs and troop activities. The "patrol" organized camp out or activity is the exception. From what I've seen in my troops, I would NOT encourage our patrols to have patrol scribes. I just don't think there is that much work. But then again, if there is a true troop published newsletter and each patrol has separate activities then we maybe I would. Ultimately, it is their choice, but the adult leaders do strongly influence the scouts.

I agree. I've seen troops that have multiple ASPLs as those ASPLs were assigned different responsibilities. But sometimes it seems like titles are being created to give people a patch. For example, eight quartermasters ? Do you then have a senior quartermaster patch and then patrol quartermaster patches? At some point we are teaching the bureaucracy of middle management instead of leadership. It's scouting. It's supposed to be simple and structured around outings.

At this point, I can agree. I've often described it differently, but I think it's similar. I've viewed it as when a team is working on something whether it's setting up individual tents or cooking dinner or ... Everyone works. When cooking, some get water, others start the fire, others find the ingredients, etc. You don't just do your part and then sit down. In another case, ... if your tent is up, but your patrol mate's tents are not done, you help your patrol mates. It's part of being a team and not just individuals. A good leader helps the individuals on his team find their purpose to be on the team. It's part of working together. My fear is making it official or overly pompous. I swear I've seen adults have custom patches made that say things such as patrol grub master or patrol quartermaster.

My question is why? Can't be for advancement. "Strictly speaking", only the patrol leader job counts for advancement. Why does each patrol member have to have an official job? I think this gets to the philosophy and personality of the troop. Is the troop advancement focused or focused on teaching the kids responsibility, etc ? Focused on creating the ideal, perfect troop ? From my last few years of experience, I'm done with troops that are intensely focused on how things should be done exactly. Rather, I'd rather find a troop that is doing things. Camping. Hiking. Exploring. Being active !

I fear I can see both sides of this in that scout troops are often chartered by churches as extension of their youth program. As such, their Eagle scouts are poster children for their values. But, the focus is lost here. The EBOR should not focus on the fact that he fathered a child. That's the past. The question should be how is he fulfilling his new role as a father. Accepting responsibility. Pursuing opportunities to be a better father. Working to be a leader / mentor in this new person's life.

Slight correction. Alternative only applies if troop has pre-established expectations and the scout does not meet those. If the troop does not have pre-established (i.e. written), the third test is passed. You only use the alternative if the scout fails to meet documented written pre-existing unit expectations. "Alternative to the third test if expectations are not met: If a young man has fallen below his unit’s activity oriented expectations, then.... "

Buddists not believing in God? It is a simplistic misguided question. Using it to say BSA is inconsistent is weak, at best. The Buddist answer to the question of God depends on the branch of Buddism. More importantly, Buddism is less about answering questions about God and more about a path to enlightenment and Nirvana. But clearly, Buddism is about spirituality, faith, transcending our physical existence, etc. I remember reading "Religions of Man" by Houston Smith 30 years ago, Buddism is a core religion. If anything, celebrate that BSA has long been a uniting force bringing many many religions together under one umbrella. But I am generally with you... BSA should be open. Let the charter orgs choose leaders that reflect their beliefs. I'd rather have everyone as members and let them choose units under charter orgs that reflect their personal beliefs. We can leave the Oath and Law as it is. Even our schools pledge "one nation under God" and our money says "In God We Trust". Let each charter org emphasize as it wants. BSA can keep the premise and the charter orgs can teach it according to their beliefs. The issue is that atheism is more often anti-theism and evangelized int he face of those trying to raise their children in their families faith.

I'm generally a fan of SOAR because of the strong and stable user interface. Rich email capabilities. Good calendaring. .... I contacted the owner recently and he indicated a lot of good features coming. I'm not involved with the company. Just interested in it's success as I've got about 15 local units to adopt it for their packs & troops. Good package. I tried TroopWebHost recently, and had trouble with buttons that were invisible on some browsers and menus that did not immediately expand. The web interface is flaky.

Ya know ... I'm pretty happy with our solution. ---- SOAROL.COM - for web site, email, calendar, sign-up, auto-payment, automatic newsletter, etc ---- TroopMaster (PC version with data backup on internet) for general records and tracking "IN WORK" (i.e. to be awarded) advancements - We've really gotten away from recording that much in Troopmaster anymore. - We just don't see the purpose. ---- Boy Scout Handbook for real advancement tracking with the scout. ---- BSA ScoutNET for official tracking

Agree with the not-so-fine line between conduct disorder and autism spectrum. BUT ... if a parent won't come hiking and camping ... that's not the solution either. There is a fine line here. Scouts need to work with scouts. Parents and adults need to be kept at arms length. Our troop has been very flexible and parents have helped greatly when the kids are autistic or other "ability" issues. But it's very different to need the parent to attend because you anticipate bad behavior and the scout being asked to leave camp. IMHO, you've got a bad situation. Scouting is about independence and trust. If you know he won't be able to contain himself fairly regularly (once a camp out or even every other camp out), then you don't TRUST him and scouting is probably not the right answer for him. IMHO, it's the job of the CC to deal with these situations quickly and delicately. Most importantly, deal with them. If that means removing the scout, so be it.

Well said.

Yea. So true.

About basementdweller's situation ... a few comments Talk with the parents BEFORE the scout is involved in a formal meetings or discipline. ---- Zero surprises. ---- Early and up front communications You need to remove the scout from the troop ---- if the scout won't own the issues ---- if the parents won't agree on a solution ---- if the troop leaders don't believe the situation is fixable Make sure the troop leaders are being honest with themselves. ---- Red flag phrases. --------- "If any kid needs scouting, ..." --------- "It's our duty to ...." --------- "Isn't this why scouting was created ..." ---- Troop leaders are responsible for the health of the WHOLE troop. I'd NEVER put a scout in front of an adult disciplinary board or even a youth version. ---- Don't hold a trial or a punishment committee. ---- Deal with the scout one-on-one ---- Have at least two or three adults present, but one is the key player. Follow the techniques a manager uses for a problem employee meeting. ---- Think of it as coaching ---- Pre-plan. Be specific. Use examples. ---- Listen to the scout ---- Make sure the scout owns the issues and agrees to fixing things. IMHO ... scouting is not about punishments. Having to debate punishments means something is wrong. Might be the troop. Might be the specific youth. But something needs to change.

I agree with Krampus ... to a degree. The term "disability" is too loosely used. I've had excellent experience with scouts that have some level of asbergers, autism or a disability. They are excellent scouts. I've also had scouts that come from broken homes or with parents in jail. We can work with them too. To be honest, I'm confounded when people talk of the category of asbergers as some type of really bad diagnosis. From what I see, they function fine in families and in society. The category I have had little success integrating into the troop is "EBD"... i.e. significant / severe emotional behavioral disorders. Oppositional. Defiant. Strong anti-social behavior. Meanness. "I believe" (not a clinician) those fall into the term severe or significant "emotional behavior disorders" ... "EBD". I'm at the point that when I see it demonstrated, we may or may not give a warning and/or a 2nd chance. The result is separation from the troop. If the scout is willing to work with us, great! We accept them. But if they want to bring meanness, oppositional, defiant or strong anti-social behaviors into the troop, they need to move on ... and very quickly move on.

Ya know ... I'm not an expert but there is a way to make scout accounts work. You need to be careful though. BUT FIRST DISCLAIMER. ***** TALK TO A TAX ATTORNEY ***** SECOND DISCLAIMER . ***** TALK TO A TAX ATTORNEY ***** - If you are not chartered by a non-profit, it is not an issue. BUT YOU PROBABLY HAVE A BIGGER TAX ISSUE FOR THE SALES So if you are a non-profit .... The IRS issue I see is the conferring private benefit. - If you hold a "troop" fundraiser (jointly selling popcorn, car washes, etc), it is troop/non-profit money. You can't benefit individuals by crediting them with XX amount of the sales. That is clearly against the rules. Essentially, you can't give non-profit money to an individual because they participated in fundraising. Non-profit funds must benefit the community targetted by the non-profit. You can't benefit specific individuals. - If scouts sell wreaths / popcorn and say "Would you like to purchase **** to support Troop ###?" or there is a big banner at the sale saying "Troop ### popcorn sales", then you are using the status of the non-profit to trigger sales. That is again a no no. The money earned by the sales must go to everyone the non-profit serves and can't be targetted back to the individuals that worked the fundraiser. .... BUT .... ******** ******** I'd like to confirm with a tax attorney that ... if a scout individually walks around saying "would you purchase popcorn? I'm raising money to pay for me to go to camp and to participate in my scouting activities." or similar, then the money is not being given to the non-profit. It's owned by the youth. It's his money ... and his tax issue if he wants to submit a tax statement ... pay sales tax ... submit a income tax return ... etc. Very similar to if the scout said to his neighbor, can I wash your car or mow your yard? I'm earning money to go to camp. Essentially, he's not using the non-profit status to benefit himself. It is clearly setup to benefit the specific individual. Also, it needs to be clear, the "sale" or "service" is not tax deductible. ******** ******** Scout accounts can work. You just need to be darn careful.

A nearby troop has a large fishing tackle box of patches kept in their scout closet. They restock after advancements. They immediately give the patch (rank or MB) and at the COH give the card. I like this appoach. Wish we were organized to do it too. The big challenge I always saw was how to initially create the supply. I was thinking if I did it, I'd get one of those small portable plastic tool boxes. Keep everything in it. Forms, advancements, MB cards, etc. Any of the "paperwork" type of items.

Units give out unofficial awards all the time. Unit leaders just need to get creative and do something meaningful that the youth / "scout" can look back and take pride in as he should because he's achived something special. Yes, it's mucked up by the unit leaders and the mother. But he has still achived something special.

Yeah, I must disent though. While Krampus may have successfully wiped himself for 30+ years, it is cold hearted bad advice that adds more damage to an already bad situation. Of course the unit on it's own can't give the "scout" official advancement. The council/BSA needs to fix that. But that's only part of the problem. The problem is that the "scout" is many years down a scouting path and has effectively completed it. AND the problem is only partially the mom's fault. Even more at fault are the unit leaders who are supposed to know the program, know the rules and know what will happen when you have a youth participate for years without registering. It might be a fun fantasy to be the hard a##, but that is almost always bad advice. AND I fear someone would actually take that advice. Would you really tell the scout: "Your mom was an idiot .... ????" If you did that, the only thing you end up creating is a kid with a grudge against mom and against scouting. Not only that, but you take a kid who has achieved and slap him in the face and only focus on the negative. *** AND *** you might as well continue at that point and say that all the previous unit leaders were morons too as they were in the same boat and they were the captains of the ship and running the tiller. ... But it doesn't help anyone and as such it's not real practical advice. The original poster is now representing the unit that led the scout youth astray and has responsibility to participate in fixing the situation. I'll leave it to the SE, council, BSA to figure out if they want to go so far as to formally credit and recognize the scout. There is not enough info to judge that here and the poster doesn't have authority to decide that. The key is that we are supposed to be teaching leadership, character, citizenship, etc. To have led someone and treated them as a scout and taken them thru the advancement program FOR MANY YEARS and then only at the end draw a hard line is completely wrong. We are not the guy yelling: No Soup For You. Find a way to recognize the scout that is on par with what he achieved and don't dimminish his achievement because of adult screw ups. It is sad that it will probably be unofficial due to his mom and his unit leaders. That is already unfair enough. Don't damage the youth / scout any more.

Work with the parents to understand what is going on. If they don't want to work with you, fine. That ends the situation. Two keys though are that #1 scouting is a group activity and that #2 scouting is a volunteer activity (both youth and adults). You can only go so far "forcing" youth to include someone who doesn't want to function as a part of their group. It's one thing if they exclude someone who wants to be involved. It's another if the kid won't socialize with them. QUESTION - Have you lost other scouts because of him? Or, have others said they'd rather not go on events if they have to camp with him? Just curious. It happens. If you really really think you can help this youth, great! BUT, scouting is not for everyone and I'd really warn against naively taking the "If any kid needs scouting, it's this kid" attitude. It's true, but the damage to your troop and your troop's reputation can be pretty bad.

Yeah .... I tend to agree it's not the best idea, but it's in line with what has happened so far and it works to smoothly close the door. It's unofficial and everyone knows it. Perhaps instead of calling it "Eagle Scout", call it the "Spirit of the Eagle" award. Doesn't really matter what it is called as it's unofficial and such. The end all is that there is nothing that can be done to fix the situation. What can be done is to find a way to recognize the youth and make him proud and glad for the time he has been in scouts. It sounds like he has learned and benefitted from scouts. Hopefully, he will do the same for his own kids ... and also register them.

Eagle92 - No offense taken. I fully understand where you are coming from and I know the requirements very well. You are right. I'm just answering this from the drastically broken situation that it is. Both the unit leaders and the mom screwed up on this. I really think that many adults newly introduced to the BSA program don't realize how formal and detailed the requirements, process and record keeping can be. Heck, it can take many years to get up to speed on BSA requirements. So unit leaders focus on running and doing the best they can. So here is a case where we have a youth being damaged by an over-protective mother and unit leaders who tried to do a good deed. How do you make the situation whole? --- #1 Recognize that you can't make the situation whole. Ultimately, the boy is not a scout, never has been and thus can't become an Eale scout ever. Perhaps the council SE or BSA national might be more flexible. Let them decide that. --- #2 Work with the mother, scout AND THE UNIT LEADERS so they fully understand the situation. Essentially that all advancement recognition is from BSA national. Anything else is unofficial. Make sure that the scout knows that he won't ever be able to prove he was in scouts or that he earned any of the achievements that he might claim. --- #3 I'd finish the course started with this youth. He should be proud of his achievements. Give him "unofficial" recognition as an Eagle scout and move on. Just do something to recognize him. That's the path his mother and the unit leaders brought him down. Now finish the path. And never let a situation like this occur again. The sad part is there is no way this youth can claim to be an Eagle scout. The best you can do is help him understand so that he can explain the situation cleanly to others for the next seventy years.