fred8033

My first reaction was a chuckle when the scouter threw a match and the fire instantly started. Generally, I thought the video was very good and the lessons very meaningful.

I absolutely agree. I'd extend it even more to scouting leaders having such strong opinions on how to run a troop that they often step on each others toes to the detriment of the scouts.

I always wondered if OA should run a youth troop leader training program at round table. Essentially, a district level program for youth to teach youth leadership and how to run their troop. Very similar to the Boy Scout breakouts at round table ... maybe with some suggested structure. Like twice a year have patrol leader training. Twice a year have SPL training. Twice a year quarter master training. Patrol method training. Other topics I'm sure are out there.

My experience is it's better to NOT see everyone. IMHO, the patrol system is much harder when you can see each even if you are hundreds of feet apart. Some local camps are perfectly setup to have small patrol sized sites 100' to 200' feet apart, but the trees and bushes fully obscure each site from the others. You have to trust your scouts more, but it really works out better.

I could be wrong. I thought the registrars are council employees, not national. I could be wrong though.

Your suggestion is much better than mine. Well thought out.

I'm betting more than 50% of the printed cards never made it to the scouts. Often lost in a pile papers. We've been involved since 2000. 18 recharter cycles. I've seen at most five of my cards. My sons have maybe received two each. It's sad to see going away as a tradition, but it's an easy money saving decision ... especially in our council where BSA membership fees went to national and card printing was done by council employees. I suspect there is some money transfer going on, but it's still a fairly easy decision.

I'd challenge this statement. The SM works with the scouts. The scouts camp, cook and do activities mostly on their own. Your other adult leader could help run interference.

Sadly, then you need an adult on the camp out who's job it is to distract the adults and get them away from the scouts. It's not a bad job. Invite the guy to go get coffee. Invite him to sit with you at your camp fire. Break out a deck of cards. See if he wants to walk with you to go visit another side of camp. Heck, new friendships are often built this way.

It's also a great way to separate the scout from his parent. Often kids do better when their parents are not present. Also, it's not just distance. It's visibility. It helps if there are trees or other obstructions so that when patrol A is cooking and eating, they can't see patrol B or see the adults.

Great advice so far. Patrols bonding as a team. Rewards. Duty roster buy-in. I think there are many 11 year olds that have never had real chores. Wash dishes is alien and repulsive. For me, that was dissecting a frog in school. That was hard to overcome and do. I think there are kids that cleaning and doing chores is like my dissecting a frog. It's repulsive. For those scouts, we have to help them overcome it until they realize that it's just not that big of an issue. I hope the SM, SPL and PL can learn techniques to de-escalate, district and guide the scout to do his work. Eventually, he'll learn it's not that big of an issue. Also, this is an opportunity for learning. If the scout doesn't want to do his share and really fights, it is reasonable for the patrol to ask him to find another patrol. Maybe he'll bounce around patrols until he finds a good home. Maybe, he'll need to find somewhere outside of scouting to spend his time. That itself will teach a lesson. Natural consequences of our choices are great lessons. Maybe the best natural lesson he'll learn is when he tries to eat the next meal and his dishes are covered with dried waste from the previous meal.

I suspect not. This is a matter of suing those with deep pockets. Each charter org would be alot of cost to sue and there are questions of links to deep pockets, etc.

Post removed. It's the same thread that's been posted for years here.

Yeah. I agree. If you show respect and value their experience, you can usually build great relationships and join the team.

Your comments are aligned with my experience. People want "values taught" that are "inline with" their own faith. It's not that scouts is a key factor in teaching faith. It's more about scouts being compatible with their faith.

I see BSA and scouting at approaching the same cross roads the YMCA crossed. Faith versus community. When I was young, our local YMCA had a big cross at the entrance and crosses in meeting rooms and other significant places. The YMCA was very very much a Christ based organization with strong ties to local churches. Now, the crosses and ties to local churches are all but gone. Still in the title, but the rest is mostly gone. Most customers of the YMCA saw the YMCA as a local organization for exercise and community. It was created and supported by the churches for much of it's life, but the customers shifted to viewing it as a community organization and not a faith organization. Hospitals and school systems went through this too. Our hospitals started as Catholic or protestant extensions to serve the community. Now, most still have the name and often a cross, but the nuns and most of the religious aspects are gone. BSA is at the cross roads now. Most customers see BSA as far more a community and civic organization. Customers with religious values see BSA as compatible with their faith, but not a key faith building tool. Likewise, most charter orgs view their BSA support as a part of their supporting the community. Very few view it as a key part of faith development and even fewer have a "youth pastor" or similar running the troop. Most view BSA as teaching outdoors, leadership, civics or just helping kids man-up. Few really view it as a deep faith program. I pray BSA never loses the key tenants of "Duty to God"... , but I do believe the program should be truly open to all. Too often we teach our scouts how to skirt the faith issue. I think that's a poor civics lesson and a poor character trait. I'd rather BSA have strong elements of faith; being a very visible aspect of scouting. BUT, let's support those of no faith and teach each other how to respect each other.

Ask for it to be re-signed using the original dates of review and signature. Scouter's should be friendly and help. It's a whoops, not a circumventing processes. If you don't get help, take it to the next level. Even if not signed, I'd still submit it with an explanation. ANOTHER VIEW comes from BSA Nov/Dec 2017 Advancement News talked about signatures on the proposal. The topic is "Jumping the gun." https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/advancement_news/2017_Nov-Dec.pdf Their view is the advancement requirement is to develop, plan and lead a project. Paperwork and signatures are NOT part of the requirement. They are enablers to ensure a better path toward success. Without signatures, you could have issues. Signatures make a smoother path. But strictly speaking, they are NOT the requirement. So if you lost the signatures, it's a mistake but not circumventing the process. Ask to see how is best to remedy the situation.

$20,000 !!!! Are you sure that's not the cost for a NEW version? Old boats lose value quickly. If it is worth $20,000, that is a ridiculous asset for a troop to carry. It sounds like this is a nebulous position on whether it's a personal vehicle (titled to a individual, used mostly for personal use) or a troop owned asset (not titled to charter org, used once a year). New motor boat engines for a 20+ foot boat is worth more than $4000. Often, the engine is worth the same as the boat. Perhaps this is an in-board motor that is really a car engine mounted in a boat. See if you can smile and let this go. If you rented a boat, you'd be paying $1000 per day for such a vehicle. Boats are expensive period ... to buy, to operate, to repair.

Good comments so far. Here are a few of my thoughts. It's hard to judge this sort of thing from the outside. A 21' motor boat is a big luxury for a troop to use once or twice a year. Depending the age and features, a $4000 repair could be 20% of the value or 120% of the value. I strongly question continuing to hold that asset. Broke due to misuse? ... How? It would help to have context ? Boats are pretty durable generally and hard to break. On the flip side, using boats have common accidents like running into docks, losing anchors, hitting rocks with propellers. So it really makes me wonder what is misuse ? Lots of experience in the troop committee and what they've achieved over the years probably attracted you and your scouts. Strictly speaking, scoutmasters and the ASMs are intentionally supposed to NOT have a vote. That's the rule. But, most troops allow it as most troops are run by a set of friends that work in friendly agreements. Votes happen, but usually the votes don't happen on controversial issues where there are huge differences of opinion. If that is normally an issue, then troops tend to fall apart because of internal differences. My questions though are ... Do the committee members know some of the parents are upset ? Do the committee members know that parents are chatting that this money is misused ? Is there a chance for the troop to sell the boat? IMHO, it seems like that is the best option. If the boat was donated to the troop, then the troop can sell it. As for the spent money, it's in the past. Now, you really need to make a choice of whether you can leave the issue in the past? If not, move on. KEY POINT - The time our children have in scouts is short. It might seem long now, but the time goes quick. I'd focus much less on this incident and much more on providing him the best scouting experience possible. Don't let this issue damage his (or her now) experience. Though you might disagree with the decision of the troop committee, it roughly sounds like they followed the right procedure and came to a reasonable decision. The "misuse" issue is a distraction. The boat is a troop asset that requires cost to maintain and run. If you want to make a difference, then build friendships with the committee members AND build an understanding and discussion with the committee members. Get to know each other.

I may have missed some posts from the original scoutmaster that may influence my view. It's the challenge when the facts come out a bit at a time. I am one who always wants to make the mistake in the scout's favor. But, it is the scoutmasters discretion and there is a threshold where you do say no. It's in the scoutmaster's discretion and boards will hold it up in those cases. I wish this scoutmaster the best.

Experiencing repercussions is natural. We just don't need to pile on more. The scout already has repercussions at school and home. He will have probably some minor follow-on in the court system with a juvenile diversion program. He did not commit an offense in camp, at meetings or at a scout activity. My view is that we should not penalize him anymore than the school would if he shop lifted from the local Walmart. I was not inferring either. I was just confirming it's the exact reason the Scout Spirit requirement exists. It's the catch all. You can't use the scoutmaster conference as a blocker for the scout. But honestly, you could use the scout spirit. It's a unit's call. If the scout had committed a serious offense, yes I would use it without hesitation. But ... in my opinion ..., I would not use it for this.

Scout spirit is the one scouters can use as a fallback when the scout misbehaves. It's why many scoutmasters keep it for the end and reserve the signature right on that requirement to themselves.

We need to be careful with labels. "Criminal behavior" may be accurate but it is also strongly biased. In Illinois, the penalty he faces is about the same as a large speeding offense. I suspect most of us at one time or other was speeding at least 10 miles over the speed limit. Probably in our lives, at least once significantly more than that whether intentional or by accident. That is also criminal activity. We are also definitely at a point where we are discussing whether it should be treated as criminal. It is easy to for impressionable youth to get caught up in those discussions and surrounding glamorization. I'd think about showing compassion and understanding before adding more headaches to the scout's life. If you can't for whatever reason, then he should not be in your troop.

Great question ... For the unit to approve, the scout needs to fill out the "Proposal" section of the workbook. If it ain't written, it ain't a proposal. Otherwise, it's like someone asking you to sign a check without them filling in the receiver and the amount. https://www.scouting.org/programs/boy-scouts/advancement-and-awards/eagle-scout-workbook/ The approver can be one person. You don't need the committee to review. We often just use the committee chair. Other troops assign a person. Some troops do have the scout present to the committee. As for criteria to sign, the BSA signature line is fairly good ... "This Eagle Scout candidate is a Life Scout, and registered in our unit. I have reviewed this proposal, I am comfortable the project is feasible, and I will do everything I can to see that our unit measures up to the level of support we have agreed to provide (if any). I certify that I have been authorized by our unit committee to provide its approval for this proposal." When I sign, I look for ... What is the scout committing to do ? What is in scope ? What is out of scope ? How many ? What defines done ? Does it meet the criteria for a legitimate Eagle project ? Non-profit or public institution or ... Does it give scout a chance for leadership ? Is he developing a concept ? is it his project ? Does the scout have a good chance at success ? Will the scout have a good experience ? Does the scout understand his own project such that he can drive the development of the idea, plan the execution and be a driving force ? There is no requirement for detailed planning or diagrams. But there is an expectation that the scout can communicate in his proposal enough to establish an agreement of what is his project is. If it's not there, it is reasonable to help him flush it right then, out on-the-spot or ask for him to go back and come back when the concept is communicated better. It is important to remember the project is about service, leadership and the scout making a difference. Paperwork and signatures are just enablers.

For me ... The good Patrol mates and refreshing fellowship of being with other scouters who wanted to be there. It helped rebuild my energy for the program. Watching how they ran the program. Marching. Songs. Competitions. Service patrols. PLC. Blue and Gold. etc. I was not a scout in my youth. It helped show me an "ideal" program. The meh... I won't say bad because none of it was bad. Classwork and individual topics. I've been through so so many leadership, management and team development programs that I saw little new and much of it was done very lightly. As such, it was a good introduction, but I don't think I benefited from this part as I had seen it previously many times. The annoying Woodbadge volunteer badgering. ... Happened to me. Happens to many. You are made to feel like you are not well trailed if you have not taken it. I have a friend who has been in scouts for 50+ years through parents, himself, kids and his grand kids. Eagle scout. Retired military officer. He just took the class to stop the badgering from woodbadge locals.