fred8033

I often think that such scoutmasters behave as such to justify their own existence and show their own importance.

This was the old normal. In 2011, BSA created the new Eagle Service Project Workbook and updated the Guide To Advancement. The whole intention of that 2011 re-design was to reign in out-of-control expectations and create a clear consistent set of expectations for all scouts. Too often the emphasis was put on the paperwork and making the scout jump hoops to advance their project. The paperwork became more difficult than the execution. Bureaucracy was valued over service to others. After 2011, the proposal signatures are to reflect concepts, general plans and would such a project fulfill BSA project requirements. Further, a reviewer should also consider whether you will succeed and have a good experience. Reviewers should NEVER expect exact work days, detail meal plans, itemized materials or an architectural diagram. Those can help the reviewer get confidence the scout will succeed, but it's not required at all. The SM is using old habits and he is in conflict with the current defined process. My question to you. Can your scout survive this and move on? Can he find a way past these things? Or, is this a deal breaker causing him to switch troops or give up on Eagle ?

I agree. IMHO, scouts should cross over directly from cubs to the lined up boy scout troop. And be provided resources and channels at all levels (Tiger --> Eagle) to easily find and switch units.

I fully agree. I hate troop shopping as a default hoop to jump through. But, if your current scouting unit is not a good match at any time, look for a better situation. There is no reason you can't change at any time.

It was after crossing over and their first meeting with the troop. At that time, there was no "earning" scout rank. Scout was a badge reflecting membership was setup correctly.

Great comments so far ... ... I was going to add a comment about pack camp outs and the gentleman not being able to share a tent with his girlfriend's Tiger scout son. So I re-read the G2SS. BSA documents have been getting more precise over the last 15 years. Words that are flexible are intentionally flexible and words that are more specific are more specific for a reason. The G2SS sometimes says "legal guardian" and other times just says "guardian". In the sections referring to sharing a tent, it just says "guardian". So if the mom says XXX is responsible for my son this weekend, do we consider that to be enough to establish "guardian"??? Or do we still apply "legal guardian" (a much more specific statement)? I've seen this situation in my cub pack and I've discussed occurrences with other packs. It happens all the time these days.

I had some trouble. One problem was that it said I could use my email or username. When I used my email, I could not sign on. I had to use the my.scouting.org username. Then it worked with my password. It was confusing for a bit.

I always get sad when I hear about a MB class that is an eight hour lecture. The only time I've seen class based do well is when there is something that makes it personal and connects with the scout. An eight hour lecture is not scouts and not how we do things. Filling in blanks on a worksheet is not scouting and does NOT replace the requirement to interact and fulfill the expectations. What I mean is a class is okay if it's wood working and the scouts go to a wood shop to do projects with the guidance of the MBC. Or it's photography and the scouts run around with cameras, etc. Or canoeing and they have a lake with a canoe for every two scouts. Scouting is active. Doing. Moving. Action oriented. Power point is not scouting. Doing worksheets is definitely not scouting. QUESTION - Did your scoutmaster recommend the out of council MB class? Did you promote it to your scout? I say this as parents (myself too) get almost more excited about scouting than our kids. Then we sign them up for things that we think would check-the-box or get-it-done when it might not be a good fit. KEY POINT - I've taken my sons to MB opportunities many times over the years. I've watched. If my sons ask to leave because it's dry or boring or ... , I'm okay with them leaving. Key point --> It's better to leave if it's not a good match for your son. The badge is great and getting-it-done is great. But, I'm really looking for my sons to have eye opening experiences at this point. If they are not going to get that, then the badge is not worth it. Great ... Archaeology done with a park ranger at his personal archaeology dig site was great. Brief class room with quirky college archaeology teacher added to it. Great experience. Bad ... Exploration done in a sunday school / church 2nd grade day care class room with MBC filling in without expertise clearly damaged my scout's expertise. Good ... Aviation done in a private plane hanger under the plan wing ... good. Bad ... Aviation done in a small day care class room with someone filling in ... bad Great ... Welding and metal working in a maintenance shed with tools and grime. Bad ... 60 minutes of re-reviewing first aid before every merit badge A class room with worksheets and a long lecture for a scout with dyslexia is not a good match. It's better for you and your scout to leave and go spend the day at the zoo and have a nice lunch. That class might be okay for some scouts. Some may get the badge. Many will definitely have a bad experience. IMHO, don't chase merit badges. Chase the great experiences. The merit badges will follow.

Thanks. I'll try again. Hmmm..... Just tried .... Errors out. Different than it error an hour ago. But still errors out. BSA must be working on security and other upgrades. Here is what I did. https://my.scouting.org/dashboard-legacy ---> My Training ---> ---> Training Center ---> ---> Cub Scouting (click the ">") I am re-directed to BSA LMS Logon https://my.scouting.org/vim2/unifiedlogon/userservice/proxy.aspx? Method=UserLogon&PageCode=MobileTaleoSSO&ReturnCompleteURI=.... I enter my username and password for mys.scouting.org. I was getting a different error for the last few days. Now I get this. Error 500--Internal Server Error From RFC 2068 Hypertext Transfer Protocol -- HTTP/1.1: 10.5.1 500 Internal Server Error The server encountered an unexpected condition which prevented it from fulfilling the request.

I tried to use the my.scouting.org online training recently (last night again) and it just crashes. I can't get any training courses to run.

I saw a BSA troop invest new scouts. It was a very meaningful. The lights were dimmed. The new scouts stood in a crescent facing the SPL. A candles were held by the new scouts and it was their first time saying oath and promise with the troop. It was kept very short. I'd be glad to see it done again.

I mostly agree with BSA's direction, but I do cringe when I hear there will be a scoutbook for girls and another for boys. Even if it's the same except pronouns, I know many scouters will be spending time to see if they are really the same. There is just too much temptation to drift with different content.

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I understand. I will share one sadness that I do have. Even though I do cringe at times and I believe OA (and other groups) will continue to move away from using native american lore (IMHO it's inevitable), I believe something will be lost. I think camps named after tribes (like antiquated art and other lore) can be offensive, but I hate seeing change as it cleanses the past. I'd rather have the lore and art as it can be a tool to teach us about the past. (good or bad)

I would be careful. It can be seen as a personal attack. Take this out of email. Do it face to face. Try to connect with the SM and build a common understanding. I find "most" people are reasonable when you show respect and truly value who they are and what they do. Work with the SM so that you understand the reasoning for his concern. See if there is flexibility or some common middle ground that would be helpful. For example ... The scouts should definitely run their projects independently. recruit and record volunteers, separately. communicate hours and expectations separately. have their own time sheets where volunteers sign in and sign out. start their work days separately. Maybe at the same time, but separately start. finish their work days separately. Each project defines it's own "done" release their volunteers separately. closes out and cleans up separately. Each project is separately responsible for cleaning up, and closing things out. If scouts choose to help project B when their commitment to helping project A is done, that's their choice. Perhaps some trading of volunteers can happen similar to how the NFL or NBA teams trade players. The key is that the projects are owned by the scouts doing their Eagle project. Perhaps the SM would be sufficiently happy if the scouts ... clearly establish separate staging areas for their project at the beneficiary site have separate designs have work areas. If this can't be done, then perhaps the SM does have a valid concern that it's not separate projects. Instead, each scout is doing part of one single larger project. At that point, one of the scouts should step up and the other two would need to find separate projects. In the end, the SM has to sign the project. Or, the Eagle app is submitted with an unsigned project ... which is not a show stopper in itself ... just something that raises eyebrows and triggers more questions. This long comment is to say ... try to work it out with the SM ... you will be better off in the long run.

I create a custom scoutbook report that shows rank, age, eagle required badges, etc. Scoutbook would be a bit more useful if we could sort and invert the columns into rows. But it's still a pretty good report.

The key is that each project is owned by the scout. Planned, developed and led. I've had projects where we coordinated with other projects. But my project is still my project that I'm the driving force on. As for the scoutmaster, "it should be" outside his control. His chance would have been during scoutmaster review of the proposal. Perhaps the scoutmaster could have refused to sign proposals because he did not see it as three separate projects. But he did sign. Now it's the scout's project and it's up to the scout to plan, develop and lead. I'd imagine the Eagle board would be looking for the same criteria. Was it the scout's project? Did he develop, plan and lead his project? If he was just a helper on another person's project, then no. There is lots of grey between okay and not okay. The key is the scout being able to represent what was his project. For myself, I'd leverage the "a scout is thrifty." Why drive out three times? Your supposed to be helping the beneficiary. Why add extra cost and head aches for the beneficiary.

Qwazse ... and HashTagScouts ... I value and recognize your points. There is a long tradition in OA using indian lore for ceremonies and to communicate OA lessons and values. I can see it being really cool to younger people and very meaningful. It's just that society has changed and we are very sensitive to the past errors and abuses. I quoted "local nations" as it's really a hard thing to define local in a 50 state organization. Plus, tribes are made up of many many individuals. I could see some agreeing and some having major issues with it. I could also see this changing easily with time as society is changing quickly these days. Being an outsider, I saw the indian ceremonies at call outs for many years before being called out. During that time, I had no knowledge Lenni-Lenape. There was a brief script. Every time we'd see the regalia and comment on head dresses, shorts, how well the script was done, etc. It's not a fight I want to take up. I raised the point as I liked the original video that started this thread as it solved a cringe I experience at every call out ceremony.

Trouble is scouts and their parents have preconceived notions of how US wronged native americans. They will cringe. I know I did and I still do if I have to explain any of the ceremonies to people not already involved in OA. You have to be an OA insider to know it's okay. Needing to be an insider to know it's okay begs the question whether it's okay. I'm okay with your position that "local nations" have helped and approved. I'd ask though if they still approve this year. It is something that you will have to re-ask yearly. Times change and they change quickly these days. Washington Redskins is still a football team and people were once okay with the name. Now, it is regularly protested. Before that it was the Fighting Sioux that was forced to rename themselves. I suspect both had at least tacit native american support at some time. It's really not a big issue to me and I'll never be an OA insider. But if someone asked me ... I would say OA needs to drop the indian lore myth. Use it as teaching lessons. But the ceremonies need to change.

Well, I never knew. I've always been on the edge of OA. Involved and supporting, but never in the guts. Interesting. AIA, American Indian Activities. Now, that I see it. It makes sense. AIA is a shell around which meaningful ceremonies and memories are created. Thinking more on it, I'm uncomfortable with using AIA to make OA meaningful. We try to be respectful, but OA is appropriating another culture to serve our purposes. It's one thing to have a dance team to teach native american history. It's very different to use AIA to make our program meaningful. Part of the issue is about playing pretend. Another part is about the updated history perspective (trading diseased blankets for land, forcing people off their land, breaking treaties, repeated wars / slaughter, alcoholism, etc). Now, we are appropriating their culture too for our purpose. I really don't have that big of an issue with it, but everyone who goes through the ceremonies is also cringing just a little bit because of those blankets, and broken treaties and lost land and .... We should be able to make OA meaningful without repackaging another

I'm still confused. Is "American Indian Affairs (AIA)" something you created or is it an organization provided by local native american tribes ?

What is this? What year was it ? It's an interesting comment and I'm wondering if it's still current. I find many quietly cringing at the use of indian lore for OA ceremonies.

I so so like the statement. It's dead on right.

There is the ideal and what often happens. Ideally, the existing troop leaders focus on developing new volunteers who can step up in the future. Often, key people need to leave and create an empty position before new volunteers step up.

I agree. I want my sons in scouts because of the outdoor aspects. Outdoors is the meat of the program. Arts, tech, STEM, leadership, etc can be explored in many channels (academic teams, robotic teams, etc). Outdoors is the special part. I view the merit badges and awards as a really good side dish, but it's not the meat of the program. BSA's competitive advantage is the outdoor program. Camping, hiking, cycling, shooting, etc, etc. For me as a parent, it's also the draw. I want my sons to be comfortable in parks, camping, etc. I really don't think they would grow that comfort and skill through my wife and myself. I view BSA as opening up many possible future experiences in their future.