fred8033

Unit leaders need to use judgement when implementing scouting events, but we should NOT imply that the rules are not the rules. When GTSS says on page two "Youth sharing tents must be no more than two years apart in age", then we have a duty to implement that.

Phones are tools. My experience watching other troops that enforce "no phones" is that scouts hide or lie. Worse, scouts learn that being a leader is about "enforcement", not about setting an example and being-in-front.

If a person is not willing to follow the GTSS, then that person should not be a scout leader and should not supervise scouts. Period. As part of becoming a leader, we explicitly sign that we will follow these rules. It's a promise and an expectation. Floats ... What is "unsupported" ? When water is involved, absolutely follow G2SS, Safe Swim Defense and Safety Afloat. Anything less puts scouts in danger and puts your troop and yourself at risk. That means qualified supervision. Backpacking ... GTSS Section 3 Camping starts with an age chart that says for "Wilderness and Backcountry" ... "(“Older Scouts BSA” are age 13 and have completed eighth grade or 14 years old and up.)" ... So I'd argue, what is wilderness and backcountry? Some of our local state parks have hiking trails and hike-in camp spots. I'm not sure I'd treat those as wilderness or backcountry as most of the spots have cell phone reception and people can hike out within an hour or so. I'd be tempted to interpret wilderness and backcountry as how far away is help and relief. As for the rest, follow the explicit words of G2SS. If it's truly vague or can be argued, there is flexibility. Always consider the scout's physical and mental maturity and the situation. Even if BSA allows it, that does NOT mean you as a leader need to allow it. As a leader, you need to always be comfortable with the situation and the scouts involved. But I'd be extremely reluctant to treat BSA's explicitly written words as a suggestion you can choose not to follow.

What is an activity? In our troop, it is anything other than the scheduled troop / patrol meetings. It has to be in some form of scouting context. It can even be the patrol hanging out in a scout's basement on a Friday night. Is service an activity? Yes. I'd ask it this way --> What is your objective with the requirement? IMHO, it's to promote the positive. We want scouts involved. We absolutely want the scouts involved with service projects. So why wouldn't you let the scout count it as an activity. The opposite would be scouts avoiding service projects because of the negative that happened when they tried to use them for a list of activities. Keeping a log of activities? It's nice to promote good habits, but it's the 10 activities that are required. The LOG is NOT required. It's an important difference. We are promoting being active scout. We are not promoting bureaucratic overhead. IMHO, if the scout wants that 10 activity requirement signed off, he needs to answer the question to the SM (or designated signer). If he has a log, great ! It helps. Otherwise, he can receipt them and count on his fingers. It's the activities that are required. Not the paperwork. Online Troopmaster recording? That's for the benefit of the troop. In no way does it "significantly" help the scout. ... We stopped recording detailed advancement in Troopmaster a decade ago and have never missed it. ... My experience is keep the scouting infrastructure simple. It promotes better experiences. Paper scout handbook recording? That's exactly why the handbook exists as it is. It has sign off pages. It has checklists. It has logging pages (if the scout wants to use them). It exists to help the scout. The scout can carry it with him everywhere he goes. The most important reason to use the paper handbook ... It gives the scout responsibility to control and manage his own records. It eliminate him having to beg for printouts or have online records be updated and then be at the whim of others for his own records.

Your first comment reflects my experience. If Webelos (... arrow of light scouts ...) complete and earn, they usually cross over. They may or may not stay. The big losses are NOT the month of the Blue and Gold crossover into a troop. It's the previous years. If you start with 20 lions and an "average" den, I'd bet 5 will join Scouts BSA. The rest are lost on the Bataan death march from Lion to earn Arrow Of Light. We had one parent who had three sons. He was very dedicated to his first in cub scouts. But by his fifth year, he really questioned whether he wanted to bring the 2nd and 3rd into cubs because of the huge commitment it needed from him ... yet again. I myself spent 15 years as a cub scout parent. If I could choose to do it again, I'd start each as a Bear or Webelos scout and find other activities for the earlier years.

Great points. I noticed that myself. Lots of revisions. And I'm not always sure it's for the better. I still prefer v11 over v12 or v13. We should cut BSA some slack though as they needed to revise the books for the gender updates. But still, it's a little over the top right now. For example, Scoutmaster Handbook was 2010. Then new Troop Leader Guidebook in 2018 and another new one in 2019. Why did they even publish the 2018 ? They knew there was more coming for 2019. It frustrated me. But then again, it frustrates me that we have to pay anything for the troop leader guidebook and the other leader books. IMHO, BSA should sell the youth scout handbook and it should be a complete book (scout, SPL, PL, etc). The rest should be available easily online.

I'm not sure if it's needed, but the infrastructure around the G2SS and how it's organized enables easy updating. It could definitely use a "what's changed" and maybe even a subscription allowing announcing changes. But it's a good model for tracking such things.

I'd like to know too. I've been comparing training documents, Kindle versions of guidebooks, web sit content and GTSS content. There are still glaring surprises. For example, I'm searching right now to see if any other BSA document contains this ... "Range of ages (no more than three years between oldest and youngest)." That's written for traditional patrols under the syllabus for scoutmaster specific training. ... Did some author just throw that in? I can't find references in GTSS or other books right now. IMHO, it sounds like a good idea, but I just can't find it. GTSS has a two year age difference for tenting. Could follow as common sense as scouts should camp by patrol. ... Or is it just basic math because older boy patrols start at 14 years old and 10/11 year old scouts start in a new scout patrol? Thus three years apart in age ? It's stuff like this that drives me crazy. Is it intentional or a different author / team that had a different view on the topic? Or was an author just getting creative? Or am I missing something? Maybe it's also how BSA has organized info. There are too many books that try to re-state the exact same thing yet again ... in a slightly different way. For example, troopleader.scouting.org on patrols methods (https://troopleader.scouting.org/the-patrol/) seems to introduce new words in the statement on what a patrol is: "A Scout patrol is a small team of normally six to eight members where Scouts learn skills together, share responsibilities and take on leadership roles" ... It's a different meaning than the 1950 handbook and different than Hillcourt or I'd even Baden-Powell. ... But then later words in the section seem to represent the traditional view. ... But then troopleader.scouting.org references types of patrols that has new emphasis on mixed-age and at the same time references a beginngers guide that has no reference of mixed age patrols. BSA really needs help getting it's hands cleanly around it's publications (paper, web, training materials, etc). IMHO, GTSS and GTA (and the advancement team) have done extremely well and are as high quality as I've ever found. The rest (including the painfully verbose rank requirements) need to be cleaned up, condensed and made internally consistent.

As I said, I suspect it was being re-written and re-organized. I suspected that's why I could not find it. I'm surprised it's a search issue. When I search "Aims and methods" from the top level scouting.org, I only find the Cub Scout aims and methods. The new TroopLeader.Scouting.Org is not found. ... But if you search in TroopLeader.Scouting.Org, then you find the TroopLeader info without finding the results of the top level scouting.org search. ... The sites are isolated somewhat from each other. I've seen the ProgramResources.org site, but I really was not sure if it was BSA's product or not. Or if it was active and used or a future product or past product. ... I pray ProgramResources.org matures and continues. ... It would benefit to be found under Scouting.Org. Like TroopLeader.org that re-routes to TroopLeader.Scouting.Org, ProgramResources.org would benefit from ProgramResources.Scouting.Org.

Yeah, BSA's documentation quality is lacking right now. I agree. I think BSA could easily solicit dedicated volunteers and organize them into an effective structure to improve the documentation of the program.

I sadly agree. It's very hard to get a large set of adults on the same page. Where the patrol can be a get learning opportunity, it is often reduced to dividing the scouts into manageable numbers. Just now, I went to scouting.org to look at "aims and methods". Found it for cub scouts. But "Scouts BSA" has nothing. It's gone. Only lists Advancement, Merit Badges and Eagle rank. I suspect lots is being re-written, but it's surprising to me that "aims and methods" of scouting doesn't exist at the national site anymore for their premier program. I would be surprised if aims and methods are changing. I did find the scoutmaster specific training syllabus, last updated 2018. I was surprised at two things. #1 there are four aims of scouting. I've always been used to three aims (character, citizenship and fitness ... 2010 scoutmaster handbook). Now, leadership development is added as an explicit aim. I always heard leadership development described, but it was not explicitly another aim. It was more under character or citizenship or mental fitness. #2 2018 SM position specific training still is aligned with 2010 scoutmaster handbook. Only describes, new, traditional and venture patrols. Does not mention mixed age excel that traditional patrols should not have more than three years between the oldest and youngest scouts. BSA needs to decide where they are with their program. Maybe BSA should acknowledge that it's a rough shell that charter orgs and create many different styles of troops within and where all those troop styles are all legitimate. Each charter org should decide their own objectives and purposes for the troop. This would be more aligned with the venturing style of unit. Or maybe BSA should proscribe a purposes and objectives and ask units to work toward those ideals. This applies toward this thread with how patrols learn and grow. Is it through a TG that mentors the patrol or through more senior scouts embedded inside each patrol. I'd like more BSA thought on this.

Exactly. That's my point. And it got worse with the latest leader guide description of patrols. Now we have stronger contradictions within BSA's publications. From what I've seen, BSA would be better off re-organizing how it does publications. IMHO, the 2011 GTA re-write was outstanding. Done very professionally. Many people brought in. Specific words were precisely chosen and the structure was well laid out. In addition, BSA created a follow-on infrastructure to provide further details and provide a feedback loop for updates. From what I see of the BSA leader guides ... at least the section I saw ... someone was told to put words on paper. Depending "who", the program takes a different tone. I'm just not sure what the program is anymore. I question whether the new books are worth buying. Boy Scout Handbook v12 never mentioned a differentiation between mixed and same age, but the new leader guide does. What does the 14th edition of the scout handbook say? I'm just not sure I want to spend more money to answer a question. This stuff should be readily available such that I don't have to buy a library of books that contradict each other. I was talking with a scout parent that I highly respect. His kids have loved scouts, but he shared the frustration that the program delivery is just too inconsistent and it's hard to tell what the program is.

I keep reading because I keep thinking I'm missing something. Especially as I see people say BSA has long done mixed age patrols. I just don't see that. Baden Powell ... "The Patrol is the unit of Scouting always, whether for work or for play, for discipline or for duty." Bill Hillcourt ... One of the main driving influenced and respected BSA leaders Bill HillCourt wrote a series of essays ... in addition to writing much of hte BSA program ... http://www.inquiry.net/patrol/hillcourt/method.htm .... "This gang, this natural unit of boys for boy activities, is the all-important unit in Scouting. It changes it name, it is true, from gang to Patrol, but it is a "gang" just the same, a small, permanent group of boys allied by similar interests, working together under the responsible leadership of one of its number—the Patrol Leader." 1950s Boy Scout Handbook (page 88): "The Scout patrol is the finest boys' gang in all the world. The patrol is the unit that makes Scouting go. It is a group of boys, usually six to eight, who pal together because they like to do the same things." Scouting Magazine ... How Scout's friendships strength patrols. ... https://scoutingmagazine.org/2012/04/how-scouts-friendships-strengthen-patrols/ Woodbadge ... Meant to mimic a scout's experience in scouts. The new scouts (class attendees) are put into patrols where everyone is brand new. No existing leaders in the patrol. Patrol members have to figure it out. TGs regularly reach in and mentor the patrol. Lots of mentoring as the patrol gets started. Less later on. The patrol does not start with a certain percent of the patrol coming from a previous Wood badge course or part of the leaders of the course. Instead, everyone in the patrol starts the same. Though people argue about the past, it seemed fairly consistent. My issue is I just don't really know what BSA recommends anymore. BSA has lost it's vision of why patrols beyond the shallow statement they are important.

I don't accept your premise and I believe mixed age requires similar mentoring from outside. Just now you are mentoring an older PL on being a leader ... because he's the older scout and he's usually the leader because older scouts can can intimidate younger scouts ... and the patrol that is designed to teach rank requirements internally still has scouts going to brown sea programs and splitting off to learn knots and first aid with scouts from other patrols. ... But now also add a power imbalance that naturally occurs when you put a 16/17 year old in the same social group as a 11/12 year old. Add that not every scout wants to mentor younger scouts but is now in that forced structure. It's why I do NOT like the new leader guide. Our debate here is also now represented briefly in the BSA troop leader guide with no offered solution or recommendation. BSA split from the long held recommendation into this misplaced argument and has wrongly started using the term "same age." I don't remember that in the old Scoutmaster Handbook. If a term should be used, it should be the "same interest patrol" or "friends patrol". Patrols should exist because they want to spend time together and want to do similar things. My frustration is with the new leader guidebook. The Scoutmaster Handbook seemed to promote a direction / concept. That concept seemed consistent with my experience and what I've read from Baden-Powell, Hillcourt and previous publications like the 1950s Boy Scout handbook. I ask the question because I think it's the real issue. We've lost vision on why we have patrols. Do patrols exist primarily to teach and the scouts get the side benefit of activities? Or do patrols exist to be active and do things and. thru the doing as a side benefit. the scouts learn and grow. I really think the later is what scouts is about. Focus on activities and through activities scouts learn many things. Do patrols exist to TEACH or to DO ? You say the first. I say the second. ... In my view this is the key issue. This is important because it shapes how we view and interact with our patrols. I read this Scouting magazine article many years ago and I still think it's very well written on the topic. How Scout's friendships strength patrols. https://scoutingmagazine.org/2012/04/how-scouts-friendships-strengthen-patrols/ I strongly recommend this reading.

Maybe. My interpretation is they learn faster, they learn better and create more memories. Too many leaders jump on mixed age patrols as an excuse for not trusting the scouts after failed mentoring. You can embed the older scout expertise into the patrol, but it comes at horrible consequences. Leadership of peers is not earned or learned. Real patrol elections are subverted (will go to the oldest boy 16 years old versus 11 years old). Decisions often can be done by intimidation or bowling over the younger scouts. Patrol pride is subverted as patrols change over time. IMHO, my a scout can change patrols at any time but my "ideal" is a scout's patrol works well together, wanting to do similar things and stays together for 6/7+ years. Patrol identify is subverted as patrols are not doing similar things. Yes, they may cook together or plan together. But ... Few can share a tent together. IMHO, tent sharing across patrols is one of the biggest ways to subvert the patrol method. Individual scouts are constantly breaking off. To go hang with their buddies. To do basic learning at summer camp. To go on higher activities. Bad habits and bad behavior is past on. Conversational topics of 15/16/17 year olds is very different than 11/12 year olds. Pals can often call each other on bad behavior or know how to ignore it. 11/12 year olds will mimic to get on the good side of the older scout. I think we can easily and justifiably debate this back and forth. My issue is less the debate. My issue is BSA had a fairly consistent story over time. The latest leader guide reflects that BSA is giving up on teaching patrol method. Instead, BSA is saying patrol method is critical and we should go figure it out.

I fear we read different things into the quotes of Baden Powell and Hillcourt and others. I fear BSA's definition of patrol has been mucked up by poor wording choices. I prefer the 1950s boy scout handbook (page 88): "The Scout patrol is the finest boys' gang in all the world. The patrol is the unit that makes Scouting go. It is a group of boys, usually six to eight, who pal together because they like to do the same things." ... I thought Hillcourt (or another author quoted with Hillcourt) wrote as a gang of friends who wanted to hang together and do things together. Where you say "new scout (same age patrol) experiment failed", I don't see it ... but I won't argue. Troops fail with it often, but it often seems a reflection of the unit vision than the idea. My issue is with troop positions such as troop guide and instructor and ASPLs there to help coach the PLs. It seems like BSA's documentation just does not line up. If suggesting mixed age, then troop guide and instructors have little work. If new scout patrol, then there is a strong need for troop guides, instructors and mentoring of new scout patrol PLs. I just don't see a vision promoted from BSA on how to make all of this work and I think it's to the detriment of the scouts.

So I'm rephrasing yours to say it's more like #1. To make SM / SPL job easier. No bigger concept beyond that.

BSA "Troop Leader Guidbook" has replaced the "Scoutmaster Handbook". The previous scoutmaster handbook talked of regular, new-scout and venture patrols. The new guidebook has changed tone with "mixed age" or "same age". I've always viewed "same age" as a slight and I prefer it to be called "same interest" or "same experience". The new guidebook says "historically patrols were made up of scouts of all ages and ranks". But I think that was not necessarily inferring "mixed age" in what mixed age patrols infers today. From what I read more and more ... my interpretation is current BSA doesn't suggest a best answer and doesn't have a best idea to use. Rather, BSA is suggesting rough ideas about how to justify organizing patrols. Beyond that, BSA just says it's important and wishes you luck figuring out their mess. So my questions .... What is the guiding reason to have patrols ? Make life easier for SM and SPL ? ... by dividing large group into smaller groups ? To train ? To distribute experience ? To be active together ? Obviously I'm strong on #3. If we fail, it's because we communicate "same age" patrols .... inferring they have to stick together or that same age has same interests. My thought is start them together as they will have strong similar interests when they join. (aka becoming a capable scout / first class) But let the scouts know they can switch at any time. My ideal is that scouts settle into their long term patrol fairly quickly and that's their patrol ideally for six plus years. But they switch patrols at any time at their choice. I choose #3 as I want to see that patrol going to the beach to compete against the camp counselors. I want to see that patrol organizing a unique special campout. Or see that patrol texting each other to go to the movies. Or .... IMHO, if you don't naturally socialize and hang with your patrol, it's not a workable structure. It's just their for training and then it's just a busy-work type of structure. So what do you think? Why patrols ? IMHO, BSA has lost sight of what they are trying to teach and no longer share a consistent idea beyond saying patrols are critical.

I agree. I was attempting to say that scouts is not about teaching Robert's Rules. If anything, those rules can get in the way of our teaching our scouts to listen and be compassionate and thoughtful to each other. But if you can use those rules in a constructive way to teach listening and compassion and thoughtfulness, then great. The key is ... We are not there to teach our scouts to master bureaucracy. It's about the social dynamic and how to work with others. That's the leadership we're teaching.

That's fine, but ya know this is not about Robert's Rules or creating the perfect mini-legislature. It's a gang of kids that should be doing things. It's probably going to look and smell like a gang of kids when planning. Pay attention to the social dynamics and mentor the scouts there. Being kind, helpful, loyal, etc. IMHO, Roberts Rules are applied when there is opposition and winners and losers. Now if you want to use Robert's Rules to get to trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, ... fine. It can be a tool. It's just not required.

"simply wear as many ... as possible" (that fit) ... I've many times seen adult leaders do uniforming checks but then be wearing four or five rows of square knot awards ... even though the adult leader uniform inspection checklist says the world crest needs to be centered between left shoulder seam and the top of the pocket. Depending on shirt size, many leaders should only be wearing two rows of square knots and not four or five. Shouldn't we correct our most experienced scouters first? Our scouts were recently doing a ceremony picture. I watched and kept my mouth shut. It was their picture and they were driving it. Yes, they were wearing both MB and OA sashes concurrently and one over each shoulder. I would have preferred just the MB sash or with the OA sash folded over their belt. But to be honest, as long as they were clean cut and looking sharp, I'm going to let it be their picture. Anything beyond that is nit picking and taking away from their experience.

Rules and procedures never can address all cases though back of the sash is a reasonable solution and explicitly stated. From all the uniforming violations I've seen, I think the best answer is make it look sharp and clean. Sashes have been sewed double wide and lengthened. Or use the back. As long as it looks sharp and respectable, no one should complain.

Rough idea ... stop troop camping. Maybe troop summer camp and a troop district camporee. Beyond that, patrols should function as patrols. Choose their activities and schedule. Find their own camps. If you really want patrols to function as patrols, minimize the troop focus. I say this as a rough idea because every troop calendar I've seen has a monthly troop focus with some sporadic higher adventure activity. I never see an annual calendar for the patrols. Maybe asking the patrols to have one or two months each year where they focus on creating the coolest patrol campout or activity. One patrol goes caving. Another does a canoe trip. Another does a state park. Maybe another does a bike trip.

I think SM signing son's rank requirements is absolutely directly analogous to MBC singing MB requirements, both per situation and per GTA. The key point I may have missed saying ... I'm very glad I got to had the honor to work with my sons on a few MBs. It was a very special and memorable time. If I had done many MBs, then I think my son would have missed out on growth opportunities. IMHO, the best advancement is varied. Some through troop. Some elsewhere. Some with parent. Some with other adults. Some with external MB fairs. Some where the scout picks up the phone and calls the adult.

Don't 100% avoid working with your son. It can be a very meaningful and grow your bond with him. As it applies to my sons ... I think MBC is an analogous role. For each of my sons, I've only mentored one Eagle MB. For the non-Eagle MBs, I've done one or two further. But then again, those extra MBs are more unique opportunities I don't think would be offered other ways. Motor boating for example.