fred8033

I agree, but I disagree on focusing on effectiveness, max class size or things like that. Rather, I'd want people to focus on making these as interesting as possible. For example, a merit badge class day on metal working better include most of the day working on metal. Bending. Welding. Etc. I remember an oceanography course that I wish my sons could have gotten in on. It had lots of kids in it. But it was led by an active duty submarine officer and an oceanography researcher who could talk real life. That was cool. IMHO, these classes have their place. But it should be done in a context that develops interest and definitely not death by power-point.

I absolutely agree. The "outdoors" is BSA's big unique selling opportunity. It's debatable on BSA's track record with physical fitness, leadership and citizenship. BSA is generally really good, but those can also be addressed with sports, ROTC and other programs. But I really don't see a quality youth outdoor nature program other than BSA.

You are right. Sometimes it's best to agree to disagree. Failures and problems can easily be re-created in a new form. Knowing what happened is critical to avoiding it again. Many projects in my career have had a close-out review. The term varies depending on the "type of" close out. Retrospective. Postmortem. Often, it's a required step in the project mgmt life cycle. I fully agree that should be done with the unit commissioner program. I fear we are mushing how to change with the fact that change needs to happen. Perhaps a retrospective on unit commissioner programs would help. I've been watching it for many many years. Sadly, I'm ready to jump to the conclusion that it can't be saved. We need to destroy it and create something new. But perhaps, it can be saved / re-engineered. The key point though is the unit commissioner service is not anywhere near a quality program in most districts.

I hope you find the right answer for scouting. I love the scouting program ... when it works. But if you don't find the magic, it's okay to look for alternatives. Your kids are only young once. Find the right answer to give the experiences to develop friendships and grow as a person. Scouting is a great program when it works. But don'[t chase windmills. There are other answers too.

Problems need to be understood so that we can move on. At some point though, we need to cut bait on a concept / structure / program that just isn't working 90% or more of the time. I'm sure there are some districts that magically make it work. But I've yet to see one in a really long time. From what I see is that unit commissioner is such a low involvement position that quality people won't stay in it and are then recruited into or find a better way to spend their time. I think the unit commissioner program is a direct reflection on BSA's bigger problem. The inability to cut programs that don't work and that hurt BSA's reputation as a quality program. Where is there the leadership to acknowledge the unit commissioner program is dysfunctional and needs to be disbanded. This would make room for new ideas that might work ... like a unit-to-unit mentoring program or a district unit triage staff.

Not sure. I've been thinking about this for 10+ years. I've been a key unit leader for 18 years. Effectively never having seen a commissioner in action. Unit commissioners are supposed to be one per charter org (one pack, one troop, one crew). That can be 20+ commissioners in a district. You will NEVER get that many quality volunteers well coordinated doing the same function. A tight knit crew of experts to triage only those units needing help would be easier to staff as it would have a well-defined purpose and volunteers tend to stick around for that.

I hugely agree. The unit commissioner program should be dissolved. I've seen districts so desperate to fulfill commissioner number requirements that any warm body is signed up. District committee staff. Former unit members with grievances or agendas looking for a title. No show commissioners. ... Sadly when they do show up, I've seen a few that over-step their boundaries. To be honest, I've NEVER seen a unit commissioner that really helps. If there is an issue, it goes to the district exec or a senior district staffer (district chair, advancement chair, etc). Here are two ideas I've had ... Create a mentor ship program where one unit can mentor another. Maybe as part of being a "quality unit" we ask units to send one unit leader to another unit where they might help mentor and send another to a unit that they might learn from. Some of the times I've learned the most are when I've attended a meeting of another troop and can learn how they function. Sometimes a camp out. Sometimes a committee meeting. Sometimes just a normal troop meting. Create a unit service committee on the district committee. Problem ... Right now, units have to work with district camping staff, advancement staff and others for info. Units work with their commissioners to hand in budgets, calendars, etc. Commissioners then pop in with advice, but really can't help. Short concept Triage to put the right people together. First point of contact Say a subcommittee of five members. One chair. Two for each "type" of unit. This eliminates looking for warm bodies or getting stuck with quirky or grievanced former unit scouters. Also, this could be a very meaningful role for the sage older scouter to volunteer in. It could be a key feature of the district commitee. And, it could protect and off-load work from the district exec.

Hugely agree. I think BSA is close, but it needs to do something to simplify and get the adults to back off. Keep the passion, but let the scouts be scouts. This is huge. Of my hundred+ BSA training line items, I think very few were enabling. Though training is important, it's mentorship and experience that scouters need.

Council bailout. thank goodness. $72 for yearbook. We only buy on their transition out of the school. ... high school graduation and completing middle school year. Just too much money and a real waste in hindsight. Most people never look at anything but they year they graduate. Even then, they take up significant space and are just weight to move around.

Our individual experiences may vary, but statistical trends are pretty clear. Total number of licensed hunters/fishers has changed measurably down (some up, but mostly down) ... but "per capita", it's significantly down. Further, the "median age" shifted from mid 30s up into the 50s (my interpretation is those who learned to hunt/fish when they were young still hunt/fish). The median age is significant because it predicts the future. It reflects the pool of future hunters / fishers that will maintain the trends. https://www.outdoorlife.com/why-we-are-losing-hunters-and-how-to-fix-it/ Anecdotally ... yes I see some with ATVs, but I just don't see the kids regularly fishing / hunting. That has become "special events". It was a regular / recurring family activity throughout the fishing seasons. Now, it's more special events. Heck, I remember when school started that kids would talk about fishing plans etc. Now, it's all electronics.

... What causes scouting to struggle ... I think you have nailed it very well. Extremely well. BUT you also need to add in technology, competition and chasing resumes. People aren't hunting and fishing. People aren't gathering as families every weekend like they used to do. Technologies (phones, computers, cable, etc) are keeping people "inside". When people do venture out, all the other options have geared way up. All season sports starting at very young ages. "Traveling" sports. (what ever that really means). New leagues (Robotics and lego leagues). Finally, people are chasing line items for their resumes. I think all three of these have been big big factors. Gone is all the unstructured free time that could be leveraged for a scouting program. ... personal experience ... My oldest had 300+ nights of camping by the time he aged out. My youngest will have near 125+ nights camping even as a diabetic (and parents scout camping with a type 1 diabetic is stressful). But I've noticed in the 20 years that life has drastically changed. Gone are the days when the basement would fill with kids friends so they could "hang out". Now they all hang out together from their own homes. Troops that easily had 10+ camp outs a year now struggle to fully run seven. People are busier and often busier without adding to experiences. ... The biggest change (a good one) is my wife rarely goes out to shop anymore. Most things other than milk / bread / cheese are ordered online and delivered. Scouting has little value without strong "outings". Other outside opportunities easily replace MBs and meetings. IMHO, most of the scouting could be dropped with little notice ... except outing.

I must admit I'm still confused. Paying victims from decades ago with non-profit money recently collected just doesn't make sense. Penalizing BSA using evidence that can be interpreted as well as a good system that was put in place decades ahead of current national standards. Penalizing BSA while leaving shielding organizations that have done much worse (parents, public schools, police, etc). I'm not blaming others. I just believe the BSA statistics are probably no worse than other organizations. Penalizing behavior from decades ago using today's knowledge is wrong when it was a society-wide ignorance. There is no "fair" in this situation. But correcting a wrong of decades ago by creating a modern-day wrong ... is wrong. IMHO, if anyone should be penalized, ... and I apologize if this is cold hearted ... but where were BSA's lawyers. BSA should have purged it's records decades ago. Nation wide, legal departments saw the trends in the 1980s/1990s for email and record systems to be used against companies in lawsuits. For at least the last twenty years, companies have aggressively purged email to prevent lawsuits trolling deep records. BSA should have clearly been more aggressive purging records ... before lawsuits became a possibility.

There is overlap, but this is about money. Deep pockets and cash.

My interpretation ... he wants the assets sold and added to the settlement funds.

It's not just setting standards, it's repeating the same stuff over and over again with only slight yearly growth.

I hugely agree. The Cub Scout program is killing Boy Scouts. Absolutely. I've taken four sons through the program. In hind sight, I'd never last in the new Kindergarten Lion program. I'd easily ditch the 1st and 2nd grade scouting years. Maybe do 3rd. Fourth is a good time to plug in. Boy Scouts definitely. But this whole idea of kindergarten through 5th grade for cub scouts ? It's ridiculous and it's killing excitement before Boy Scouts where the kids really benefit. Scouting should start when you can teach and trust scouts with fire, knives, archery, tenting and the traditional outdoor program. That's what sells scouting. Until you can trust them with fire and knives, let them kick a soccer ball or play organized t-ball.

Agreed. BSA doesn't benefit from fighting this. Let them have their spotlight. Move on. IMHO, it's a petty move by the family and damages all who touch it.

I wish there was a clearing house of background checks that organizations could subscribe as a member. I swear there was one year I had five organizations run background checks ... work, school, multiple volunteer organizations, etc. It added no value to the purpose of the organizations, but it added alot of cost. We need something like a LinkedIn for background checks.

I wouldn't be surprised. Registration was $11 fall 2000 and another $12 for Boy's Life. As fees increased, we always found a way to reduce our recharter costs. When the fee increased to $24, our pack went down to one Boy's Life per family. Then, we stopped registering the partially involved adults. For example, we stopped registering the mom who helped bake or the dad who reserved camp sites. We focused on registering direct contact and key committee members (chair, treasurer, etc). Then, we stopped automatically buying books for the families. Later years, we stopped rechartering unpaid scouts. IMHO, fee increases never result in a direct revenue increase. I fear $48. It might not be that huge, but the troops and packs have already collected annual dues and are well over half way through fund raising. My whole scouting career has been surviving major trends. Dale v BSA. Loss of United Way. Loss of school support. Loss of LDS. Ridiculous lawsuits.

Memories Good set of sun glasses. Blocks the wind. Blocks the snow glare. Looks cool. My first winter camping experience I remember well. Our guides would ask the scouts if they were cold. If any said yes, we went on a 4/5 mile hike. Long hikes in winter boots is tiring. Very, very quickly the scouts learned to say NO to being cold. We went to sleep with the sun. I swear it was 5pm / 5:30pm and we were going to bed. We were very tired and worn out and slept until sun up in the morning. It was either keep moving or go to sleep. Fires for cooking. Not for keeping warm. The scouts all spelunked in their sleeping bags. Diving deep to avoid any cold. ... not smart ... breathing creates humidity = wet = cold My last winter camping ... -23 F. ... Very manageable ... I'm just too old for that now. ... Thank goodness for a really good sleeping bag. Suggestions Any outdoor game that helps demonstrate keeping warm. I remember using ropes once and playing human foosball.

Eating together is critical to bond. Each patrol individually eating together is critical to forming and bonding as a patrol. Cook stations and eating areas need to be separated and away from each other. It's part of being a patrol.

I agree... we don't need to teach psychology, but we should somehow teach attitude / approach. I do agree with you. The best way to teach it is by example. I hugely agree with most of your comments. The one that I'd like to expand on is where the SMs sit back and let SPLs / PLs run things. My comment is driven by everyone learning best by example. If SM "sits back", it teaches SPLs / PLs, they can sit back. It teaches people can sit down when their job is done. My better thought is SMs and adults need to help each other and keep working so that scouts see that SM / adults help each other and help others. Leadership is never about "sitting back". If the SM sits back, then we are teaching our scouts they can sit back when leading or when others need help. Now there will obviously be lots of times where adults can sit back. But I think it's important that we lead by example. If we expect scouts to help each other, we need to help each other. If we expect scouts to bus / clean tables after meals, then adults need to do their share too. The key is we need to model the behavior we want to see.

So many good comments here. I fear to say I think the largest obstacle to patrol success is the passion adults put into the patrol method and scouting in general. In addition, I think it perverts the program; stresses the scouts; and saps the fun and excitement from the program. When I look at the requirements for a national honor patrol, I envision a set of friends getting out doing things. In the process of that, they help each other grow, plan and coordinate. And, they take pride in their friendship and identity as a patrol. Yes, modern youth protection makes this harder, but I think that's just an excuse. Patrols can still be active and do things if the adults learn to back off a bit. I think this is a great example. IMHO, I think it's the adults that love those patrol boxes. I'm not saying every patrol has to be a backpacking troop, but I think we force so much structure on the scouts that it saps their fun and energy. It would be an interesting troop if a new patrol would need to spend a few months assembling their own cook kits. Buying stoves. Visiting the good will for pans and utensils. Deciding how to pack and prepare the stuff. Each patrol could develop their own true identity. I hugely agree. It's good to have a central reason to have a camp out. But I also think it's absolutely okay to leave a large part of the time unstructured. Let the scouts have their free time. Let them take three hours for dinner if that's what they want. IMHO, it's in the unstructured time that the magic happens. Great comment. The best SPL I ever saw really focused on the scouts having fun and doing things. But it was not just a duty roster / camp schedule thing. He drove the scouts to do more and have alot of fun when doing it. The best SM I ever saw was calm, easy-going, mello and friendly to all scouts. He never got stressed or angry. He had a gift of knowing how to work with the personality of others. I often question how scouting teaches leadership. ... The above example is great. .... I have also flipped to focus on making scouting activities interesting, fun and new experiences and let scouts naturally learn during those activities. I say this because I think most adult leaders are not inherently gifted enough or trained enough to teach leadership. While servant leadership is important "as a style" of leadership, scouting misses big time on teaching the psychology and attitude of leadership. In fact, the only places I see scouting consistently give good leadership training is during the scoutmaster minute. I wish we'd advise scouters to forget teaching leadership at any other moment then during the scoutmaster minute. And then to use good, short, thought-provoking SM minutes. ... And I do mean "minute" ... 60 seconds.

That happened in the case I listed too. Without intervention, the patrol had about 1.5 to 2 large boxes of pop tarts for each scout in his patrol. They were very happy with that so they each kept their pop-tart supply. They had less use for pounds and pounds of meatballs, pasta, sauce, eggs, lunch meat, milk, etc. ... I think the scouts in question ended up sharing the pop-tarts with everyone at some point.

I think I agree with your thoughts. I'm just not sure on the remedy you suggest. ... and finding a remedy is a real hard problem ... here is the real case that happened in our troop ... The scout was buying for his patrol and had the menu for his patrol. He had around eight scouts. At the time, the target budget was around $12 per scout. $12 times 8 = $96 budget. ... Well, the scout was a bit of a space case and instead bought enough for all scouts in the troop. We were around 35 scouts at that time. I suspect the parents badgered the scout and decided to play it safe. Even then, they missed the $12 dollar budget per scout. Receipts were over $500. Should the scouts in his patrol pay the penalty and owe around $65 each for the food for the weekend? We ended up with adults buying and separating some of the extra food. Troop did reimburse high for that camp out, but it was more like $15 or so per scout. True beauty of patrol method is peer pressure if you can route the peer pressure to be positive and not just "roasting" ... but that does happen too.