fred8033

Distracting tangential comment ... Two of my sons who earned eagle (19 and 24) have both coordinated multiple camping trips for them and their friends. One with his patrol mates. My fourth son has started talking with his friends about camping with his friends. ... My oldest said his friends had no clue.

Swimming and camping are part of being a scout. If you earn First Class, you should effectively have those.

Well said. And, it's a good way to handle things. ... The key is some day in the future, you will be an adult. At some point, you will be setting an example and/or teaching the next generation. Everything we do teaches lessons. ... In this case, you learned several valuable lessons. You developed a skill to handle bad situations. That will be valabule. You also learned those in power can easily abuse their power and ignore rules to fulfill their own goals. The bigger harder lesson is to not repeat wrongs and not to treat others as we have been treated. It's hard, but very important to change things.

Yeah ... That's like when you have a new troop. The best way to start the PLC is to let the scouts choose a leader, give an example, mentor and support ... but let the starts start doing their own PLC immediately. Constantly adjust, but get out of the scout's way and let them enjoy their program. 2020 was a hard year, but I have a few good memories. One was my youngest son. Him and his friends were spending hours and hours online together. So a few times, I told him tomorrow you are out of the house ... invite your friends. ... expected masks, six feet apart, etc ... Told him to not come back for at least four to six hours ... .dinners is at 5pm ... him and his friends met at the junior high parking log and spent the afternoon walking the sidewalks and trails in our city ... visited the grocery story for drinks. ... While driving, I saw them miles from our house. From what I saw, he and his friends had a great time and they did it several more times. ... They were safe ... They are all polite kids .... They grew a lot more during those wandering trips than sitting in our basement online.

I volunteered for years because I could sit with another adult for hours and hours and play cribbage.

Same can be said for scouts. Scouting is drastically and YPT is drastically different than what it was when most of the abuse happened. Drastically different. Yep. It's habit in our troop when one adult goes to check on things, a second adult tags along. and helicoptering leaders. The simple fact is we don't need to check up on our scouts as much as we think. A favorite example is summer camp. It's okay to walk around camp to see how things are going. I really think it's a bad thing to assign adults to check each merit badge session to see if the scouts arrived at their session. If the scouts ditch their session, that's their issue and they proably won't get the badge. A friendly chat is nice to see how things are going. But as leaders we should not hover over our scouts.

Perhaps you are in a different school district than I am. We have many cameras, but there are way more number of small rooms, nooks, crannies, blind spots where there are no cameras. If an abuser is a coach, they can create opportunities.

That's pretty much our council's approach too. We want the scout to use the latest version, but we also want them to keep moving forward. So if they have a signed off proposal with an old template, we'd say use the latest for the PLAN and REPORT. The key is we don't make them regenerate it for the sake of being current.

Interesting changes. Much looks cosmetic. Nice that it opens in a web browser instead of requiring download immediately. Nice larger areas for writing Great that they added a "Contingency" block in the PLAN section. Why won't text areas expand? In the previous version, I believe the text blocks would grow. Page G. Why full text justification in the signature block. Looks klunky. Should be left justification. Minor issue. Numeric columns don't add up. I thought they did before. Can't add more rows to tables. Glad to see an upgrade. Now to learn the improvements.

Thank you. The rare useful comment by someone who stays on topic.

I absolutely enjoy the company too. It's the "far away" that I rarely see.

We filled out the paper one for every trip we went on ... I hope. I only did the camping paperwork a limited amount of the time. But I remember seeing it in with the stack of health forms. Always a pain as 30% of the time we were camping at scout camps and they wanted the tour permit for scout camps too. I have faint recollections of an online version, but it would have been a very short time window. Less than a year. My recollection was a council signed tour permit was explicit evidence (aka liability) of the council agreeing the leaders had a good plan and were qualified to do that activity. Thus, the tour plan approval was eliminated.

Yep. It happens. I cringe every time added hoosp are explained as life lessons or helping them with a future objective. If a scout comes asking for a proposal approval, scouters should be friendly, courteous, kind and supportive. A pet pieve is when scouts are forced to face a Eagle project proposal BOR. It's supposed to be a friendly discussion. Proposal reviews are NOT a BOR that helps scouts prepare for their EBOR. Exactly. Let your SM be your advocate. It's not your place to correct misdirected adults. But if you can, congrats. It's a valuable skill. On the other hand, imbalances of power are best left to your SM. They must. But you will have to appeal up to get tings corrected.

I don't remember that. Here's the only legacy versions I could find. http://www.troop880.com/PDF Forms/LocalPermit.pdf https://www.jerseyshorescouts.org/files/2003/Tour-Plan-Form-pdf The only reference to ratios or a 10 limit vehicle limits for transporting scouts. That's a driving issue, not a camping issue. Most of our weekend camps are within an hour drive. It's usually easy to get drivers.

Maybe we don't have enough trees.

"In the field" ??? ... Most troops I know camp "mostly" at scout camps, state parks or something similar. Camps filled with support if truely needed. I'd agree that backwoods activities require a different level of support ... potentially. But even then, I've seen eight scouts and three adults do a long hiking trip multiple time. It really depends on the situation. I've camped with 30+ scouts multiple times with just one or two other leaders. It's not tha big of a deal. Yeah, two does feel thin at times. Having one or two extra is fine and nice so that you can play Hearts or able to play cribbage when one of the adult is napping. I'm really trying to draw the distinction between a limited set of adults and 10+ adults on a camp out. You just don't want that as the normal pattern. It hurts the nature of the program. This thread is really about advancement function and whether an ASM can perform much of that role. ... I'm not sure how we changed topics ... I suspect I'm the guilty party ...

Five years ago, we did a high adventure. Two adults. Eighteen scouts. The high adventure camp staff treated our troop like all stars for letting the scouts enjoy their own trip and minimizing the adults. ' I'd encourage every troop to consciously work to minimize the adults on the camp outs. It is a youth program.

Scout camps have a ranger on-site with a house usually within a mile and other troops are near by. Most state parks have 911 coverage, other campers and county sheriffs respond quickly. If you have scouts with special challenges, the situation changes. And then I'd really ask the question ... are you comfortable taking responsibility for that specific scout? At that point, I'm not sure any number of adults will help ... unless you require the parent to attend. In my 15 years of troop camping, we've camped with 30+ scouts and two adults about five or six times. It worked great. I also found scouts avoided the adults much less and stayed together more. .... Most campouts were 3 to 6 adults. It was okay. ... The worst campouts were always when we had 10+ adults or a ratio of 1 adult to 3 scouts or 1 adult to 2 scouts.

Insane? Legal liability? We empower scouts with stoves, axes, knives, rifles, etc. We take them out into the wilderness (usually a state park or scout camp) with weather, animals, etc. If you want to avoid liability, don't volunteer anywhere. We do have G2SS to explicitly follow and parents sign waivers for each campout. Beyond that, I'm not sure having extra adults would really help with liability. Would it prevent incidents? Probably not. Would it help when incidents happen? Maybe. That's why 3 or 4 adults can be nice, but it's just not that critical.

Yeah, that's pretty normal. Though I support the BOR rule, I find hypocracy in the requirement that BOR can't have SM or ASMs. Often committee members interact with the scouts more than ASMs (who can't be on BORs). That seems wrong and breaks the idea that you want someone separate to judge program quality. "Ideally", scouts work with scouts. SM is the liason to the adults. ASMs support the SM. The SM/ASM side interacts with the scouts. ... committee members don't. I've seen way too many troops where ASM seems like an entry level spot that will eventually step up to a functional committee role such as advancement, treasurer, etc. The best camp outs I've seen are where we have two adults and the scouts. Even when it's been 30+ scouts. I wish the BOR rule was ... BOR can only be staffed with people who don't interact with the scouts. (camping, advancement, etc)

This is not a live or die issue. Scouters can be flexible on this. BSA does clearly intend the Advancement Chair is a member of the committee. BSA then again, BSA also clearly intends the SM is the person who interacts with the scouts. ASMs support the SM. ... aka ... committee members don't work with the scouts. Yet, I continually see the committee members interacting with youth and pretending to be SM/ASMs. Perhaps, committee members should not camp with youth. Not attend troop meetings or PLCs. Not make announcements to scouts. Seriously, this would be good. It's the SM with his ASMs that should be working with the scouts. Quality control? The BOR is the quality control check, not the advancement chair. See below duties. If you really want a separation for quality control, then separate the committee members from the scouts. Huge benefits here in many ways. Stop having committee members camp with the scouts. Stop having them in the room during troop meetings, activities or doing announcements. Far too often, the BOR members behave exactly like a troops ASMs and then put the committee member hat on for the BOR. I learned from the above linked Committee Guidebook years ago. Advancement Duties: Encourage Scouts to advance in rank. ... Perfect for an ASM. Work with the troop scribe to maintain all Scout advancement records. ... Perfect for an ASM. Arrange quarterly troop boards of review and courts of honor. Develop and maintain a merit badge counselor list. ... Perfect for ASM as SM gives a suggested MBC name. Make a prompt report on the correct form to the council service center when a troop board of review is held. ... Now ScoutBook. Secure badges and certificates. ... Order online. Delivered before next meeting. Work with the troop librarian to build and maintain a troop library of merit badge pamphlets and other advancement literature. ... Perfect for ASM. Report to the troop committee at each meeting. ... I usually see many SM/ASMs at commmittee meetings ... not all, but many. My thoughts are ... Do what you need to make your troop work. Don't overwhelm one volunteer with too much work. Clearly assign responsibilities. Who buys the advancements? Who encourages the scout? Who works with the scout master of ceremonies to put a program together for the next court of honor ? Who ###, etc, etc, etc ? BOR members must NOT be a SM or ASM from the same troop. Can be SM/ASM of another troop, but not the scout's troop. Personally, I'd go further and say not any adult that regularly interacts (attends mtgs, camps, activities, etc) with the youth in the troop. One option ... split the advancement chair job into two roles. One scout facing (ASM) and one committee facing (MC).

Such weeks bring smiles for months / years.

I am strongly leaning in the same direction. This may be my opporunity to find somewhere else to spend my time. I was hoping to do far more than 20 years as a volunteer, but this September is 20 years since I brought my first son to his first meeting and bought him his orange Tiger t-shirt and hat. Perhaps, it's time to move on. I was glad to see many of the recent membership policy changes. But it has been 20 years of issues starting first with 1999 Dale vs BSA. Now yet another self-inflicted issue ... and this one very political.

The issue was the statement on facts. There are many "facts" out there. The question is which facts do you choose to emphasize and which do you ignore.

Value statements such as the above are usually not political. The daily application can be political. How it's taught especially now is usually very political ... especially now.