fred8033

@ThenNow wrote ... "I'm also baffled by the lack of strategic organizational, financial and risk management planning. With the number or high-level attorneys and professionals associated with the organization, what were they thinking? Also, what were they doing? This goes to YPT, too. (DavidCO - please don't get your waterboard.) This is personal and corporate tax, estate and legacy planning 101. Maybe 201. Put stuff in trust. Create holding companies. Install distance and buffer entities. Protect and sequester assets. Don't commingle. It sounds complicated, but it's not so much so that an organization like the BSA couldn't have a poop sheet to tell LCs how to do what...years ago. Just sayin'. They brought this on themselves with denial and a good deal of arrogance, imho. That relates to the asset scramble and the abuse cases. Fast and loose." I agree on this. Since 1990s, corporations have focused on cleaning up record tracking systems that can be used for legal fishing. I've seen this personally in one of the companies I was in where a lawsuit was used to open records that then created a cascade of further legal issues. ... I was actually surprised that the ineligible volunteer files still existed. I hugely believe it was a good intention from before society recognized the issues and started having the structures in place. ... And a good intention to try to block bad volunteers that no one else is flagging as bad. .... BUT, as shown now, it's also a huge liability that can be pulled into lawsuits for fishing. .... I really question the value of tracking 20+ year old incidents. ... When BSA adopted external background checks, BSA should have let the background check system work as designed. No legal issue? No background trouble? Then, it's up to the CO. Sadly, the ineligible volunteer file probably would be a useful tool. But it's also a massive liability.

Yep. Most of the time there are "open doors" and smart teachers try to avoid being alone. But students are often in the building at all hours when there are often few other observers. Those wanting to can and will find/create opportunities.

personal story ... sadly ... LOL ... I recently had a rather hard headed discussion with my youngest son where I emphasized I did not view a C as something to be proud of. ... I might have said that "C" reflected he attended, was breathing and awake, but it did not reflected that he learned anything. ... It's not that I was that upset about the grade itself. I was upset that he was holding up the C as if it's something he should be proud of. He's in school. I expect him to invest effort to learn. If he invests effort, he should be able to get at least a B. C is a good indication he did not invest the effort. He didn't like the class. So he didn't care. ... That was not acceptable.

Teachers not allowed to be alone with students ... I'm absolutely hugely surprised too. Back in the 1980s in the music practice rooms we used, there were no windows. You were in there behind a closed door with a teacher. Even today, there are many hidden nooks in most middle and high schools. Teachers can easily be alone with students. In teachers defense, I've seen multiple times where a student had a crush on a teacher and sought out individual time. ... I'm just surprised there are not more strict rules as much to protect the teacher as to protect the student. What surprises me, is that we are far into the realm of "mandatory reporters" for teachers and coaches. Scout leaders have probably fell into the last expansion of mandatory reporters. I really think people get lost in the numbers and how big the numbers are in any huge organization. You want to fix this, fix it in society as a whole.

@David CO ... Back in the 1980s, 1990s or even early 2000s, I can understand that thought process. I'll say it again, BSA is not unique here. And in may ways BSA was further ahead than other organizations. We've now been in 20 years of mandatory reporting and a more mature understanding of the problem. But we still see cases happen on massive scales. Youth sports where penetration described as inappropriate touching and couches plead ignorance ... yet later shown to have known. AP found 17,000 over a four year period ending in 2017. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/sexual-assaults-in-high-school-sports-minimized-as-hazing-ap/ Universities ... Southern California with Tyndall, Michigan with Nassar, Penn State with Penn State with Sandusky K-12 - 10% of students subject to sexual misconduct by school employee ... https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/252484.pdf Society does not protect children well and on the other hand we have helicopter parents. It's the post-2010 cases that do astound me. Especially in BSA with the strong YPT focus and rules. I'm extremely surprised in schools. I'm much less surprised in sports though as they have not generally had their spotlight in national news yet. I just don't feel this should be an end for BSA. Perhaps, it is right BSA transforms into a family oriented program. Teaching values in an outdoor setting with family members often there with their scouts. Whole families now are disconnected and not comfortable in the outdoors. I could see this being a good thing.

Yep. I read that too, but punishment takes many forms and thru many ways, civil and criminal. That is specifically BSA's situation. The individuals criminally responsible can't be prosecuted. BSA can't be criminally prosecuted, but BSA is effectively facing a death sentence for criminal acts by a 3rd party by the extension of a civil SOL. It's just interesting. 5th amendment protection limitations (example: expiring when SOL expires) might not be limitations anymore as SOLs (yes civil) are not absolute and can be made retroactive. We've also seen that immunity agreements are not necessarily binding. Imperfect immunity agreement. Cosby case. Prosecutors clearly intended and negotiated an immunity agreement inexchange for a deposition. The next prosecutor argued it was beyond the prosecutor's power to establish. Instead of saying the deposition had to be thrown out, the judge kept the deposition, but threw out the immunity. Immunity is not absolute and testimony can come back to haunt the person testifying. Depending on the twists and turns, you can still be charged with other aspects if evidence can put you under other charges. Immunity does not cross between federal and state jurisdictions.

I'm following another trial recently. One of the key witnesses took a 5th amendment protection against testifying. I started reading about scope of 5th amendment. Whether prosecutor could eliminate the protection if he guarantees against protection, etc. My reading interesting tied to BSA's SOL situation. ... a very weak tie, but still ... BSA's current situation could only occur after states started retroactively extending statue of limitations and that retroactive SOL change was found legal. .... Relating to 5th amendment, 5th amendment applies generally as long as the person has not already been punished for the action and the SOL has not expired. ... BUT if it can be reasonably demonstrated that SOLs can retroactively be changed, the person can argue that SOLs are not an absolute anymore and that they need to protect themselves against criminal prosecution and civil liability. BSA's chapter 11 case will have interesting legal ramifications for the future.

That is my thought too. BSA really has little to do with any operation. Each council would need to revisit fundamentals like recording advancement and even the rights to use training materials. But, that would be years out resolving such rights. Until then and even after, councils could continue to run camps, etc. In fact, councils might have an easier go as they would not need to route "DUES" to a national organization. Instead, they could keep more of the funds locally.

In court, probably. In personal opinion, no. I'll continue to argue that this lawsuit is morally bankrupt and will help no one. It will damage all who touch it except the lawyers.

I feel for you and your scout. I've often described scouting as shining when a magical mix occurs. The right fellow scouts. The right leaders. The right unit culture and experiences. If that happens, scouting shines. Far too often, one or more falls flat or even becomes a huge negative. if your son finds that magical mix in scouting, then celebrate. If not, it is always okay to find somewhere else where your son can shine. Our kids are young once and it goes fast. They need somewhere they can succeed and feel special. I hope it's in scouting. If not, that's okay too.

Yeah. I've seen that. We left a troop because of how another leader was treating my son's friend when it was really that the leader did not like the dad. It was their way to get rid of the dad. It damaged the son. Still makes me screaming mad today. An absolutely great comment. Scouting is supposed to be one part of a rich childhood. For us adult volunteers, we often get pulled in deep and it takes a lot of our personal time. I wonder if we could apply an analogy here. Supposed you and your wife talked about being extremely tight with money all the time when the kids were around. I guarantee you that kids pick up on that and start worrying and focused on the family money situation too. Same with marriage issues. If the parents are constantly arguing or disagreeing in front of the kids, the kids will pick up on that and their home-life becomes stressful and no-longer the safety net. I'd imagine it's the same for scouts. If we are constantly diving deep into scouting as adult volunteers, it probably pulls our scouts too deep into "scouting" and they can experience burn out. "Scouting" is supposed to be just one part of a rich childhood. I myself should probably have shielded my kids from all the scouting discussions and work even more then I did.

Ahhh ... I just re-read. You are right. $150 by August.

That's in the BSA case. Does it address state specific SOLs? Does it address cases that local councils already resolved via previous settlement? It is fair to say ... the BSA list is a fishing expedition. It's naive to think any council did not experience abuse cases. Just as it's naive to think that any school district or other large organization with youth did not experience abuse cases.

So $250 MILLION on lawyer fees by August? Say settlement of $500m or even $1B (insurance, etc). It is possible that law firms will get more money than victims. $250M + 25%/30% of award + (legal fees after August ??)... 50/50 split would be about a $500M award. $1B award would be about a 60/40 split (victims/law firms). This is just completely ugly.

Well written. THANK YOU !!!!!!

Yeah. It's not realistic to represent a massive bankruptcy as an opportune moment to open up. This is when companies remind employees that each and everything they say and publish can become part of the legal case. This is far outside corporate leadership and marketing. It's now a legal game. I still am not sure how why local councils are expected to contribute. Either they are legally separate entities since they were created or not. This is why individual companies exist separately.

I've never heard of "transparency" as practiced by lawyers or companies. Issue is not BSA. This is a corporate / legal issue and always has been.

Poor timing to sell iconic works of an American Master ... meaning ... bankruptcy and sexual abuse charges will suppress value.

Special Ed teachers since 2020 ... not sure 100% were special ed, but think so Chicago ... https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:6tudxcCfBxkJ:https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-teacher-arrested-sexual-assault-20200218-isfuq67j6bg7pjh7h5q2n6mz44-story.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us Utah .. https://www.deseret.com/utah/2020/12/31/22208283/special-ed-teacher-charged-with-sex-abuse-in-spanish-fork-canyon-elementary Florida ... https://www.idahostatejournal.com/news/local/highland-high-school-special-education-teacher-accused-of-sexually-abusing-non-verbal-student/article_d298fae0-8153-53a9-9062-4e2097775c64.html New York .. https://nypost.com/2020/02/27/queens-teacher-arrested-for-sexually-abusing-special-needs-student/ California ... https://patch.com/california/northhollywood/special-needs-student-claims-abuse-special-education-teacher Alabama ... https://people.com/crime/ala-special-ed-teacher-allegedly-sexually-abused-student-husband-files-for-divorce-2-days-later/ List keeps going ad nauseum https://www.theedadvocate.org/when-teachers-sexually-abuse-students/ BSA is not really unique at all. More interesting statistics ... start reading page 20 onward for numbers ... very scary ... those percents are of 328 million people who are alive and gone thru the school system. Even 4% is 13 million students. 6.7 percent is about 22 million. etc, etc. https://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/research/pubs/misconductreview/report.pdf

Ya know ... medicine ... I forgot that one ... when I was a youth ... I'd hear news reports a few times a year about a dentist, a psychologist or a doctor that abused their patients (youth and adult) in our state. It's one reason a 2nd person or parent is required in the room for many examinations. Doctors often viewed as saints above the reproach of the commoner ... yet can often be abusers like the next guy down the block. Dr. Nassar (2018) ... 300+ gymnasts https://www.statnews.com/2018/02/05/larry-nassar-doctors-sexual-assault/ Multiple legally required mandatory reporters failed to report ... this is after year 2000. Multiple med deans and school professors failed to report or take action Pediatrician with 1,200+ victims https://doctors.ajc.com/why_abusive_doctors_not_caught/ Figure skating ... https://abcnews.go.com/US/skater-sues-coach-federation-alleged-sexual-abuse-coverup/story?id=71871705 Roller skating ... 200+ victims ... Trying to find name of the convicted predator that taught at roller rinks and abused 100s. His jail interview was part of Virtus training. Wrestling coach .., https://www.esquire.com/sports/a35120040/richard-strauss-ohio-state-wrestling-sexual-abuse/ Others often know ... Abuse victims are often not the first victim. Others see problems before the abuse happens. This stuff is not new and not unique to BSA.

I've seen one like that. Not sure if it was as long, but his kids then helped as ASMs.

I agree. My main reason to get my sons in scouting was to give them skills and interests that I hope serve them their whole lives. Going out into nature. Not being scared of new adventures. etc, etc, etc. There will ALWAYS be a demand for this. It might not be titled BSA, but some group will offer it.

Again, I know you went thru hell. My apologies. I believe the drop is real and started far in advance of the last ten years of law suits. Alot has changed since 2000. Scout leaders are legally required mandatory reporters Mandatory troop youth viewing of YP videos Complete revamp of training, who needs to be trained, etc Continued improvement and evolution of YP requirements and training Key one --> Every scout handbook for as long as my scouts have been members (I believe) starts a with phamplet for parents to read on YP. ... Even now part of rank requirements to be handled. "I BELIEVE" there is a big difference between 1980s and now that encourages scouts and leaders to speak up. I believe because of how it was handled in the 1980s and even early 1990s that many youth would not speak up right away. I'm betting now it is very different. Some will behave the same. But speaking up about being a victim does not contain the same stigma it had back 30 years ago. Still some stigma, but not like in the 1980s and earlier.

Every coach and sporting program markets based on values, character development, physical fitness, etc. We have surrendered a bit too much to BSA's marketing materials if we really think the purpose of scouting is that much different than sports. Every coach and sporting program worth their salt finds ways to work values and character development into their teaching. BSA Aims: Character development Leadership development Citizenship training Physical fitness Football per USA Football ... https://blogs.usafootball.com/blog/523/3-reasons-why-your-child-should-play-youth-football Love of game Physical fitness .,. BSA aim Teamwork ... BSA aim... Targeted exercise in citizenship Discipline ... BSA aim... aka character development Team sports: https://cyfastorms.org/10-reasons-why-kids-should-play-team-sports/ Teamwork ... BSA aim.. Targeted exercise in citizenship Physical fitness ... BSA aim Dealing with adversity ... aka character development Commitment ... aka character development Better grades ... aka character development Marine corp view of sports: https://usmc-mccs.org/articles/5-reasons-why-your-child-should-be-playing-sports/ Develops teamwork and leadership skills ... BSA aim Healthy life style ... BSA aim

Associated Press in 2017 found that in the previous four years, there were 17,000 sports victims ... without lawyers soliciting on TV ... often called inappropriate contact ... minimized by coaches ... mandatory reporting often not followed. Four years of sports with almost twice as many vs 30 years with BSA. So then church youth programs? School? Music and theater programs? Obviously BSA is not perfect. I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing it's blind to think BSA sits alone.