fred8033

While it would prolong smaller cases, it would allow BSA to continue and scouting in many, many states to continue. It might also serve as a crucible shedding light on a rather sleazy solicitation of victims that exploded cases from 14,000 to 85,000. Sometimes it's best to call the situation and force the details to be worked through instead of accepting the facts on the face.

WSJ: "The Boy Scouts put forth an alternative chapter 11 plan that would resolve sex-abuse liabilities for only the bankrupt national organization, while leaving local councils spread across the country open to thousands of legal claims." Considering the current deadlocked situation, this seems like a good idea. It would move things forward which is probably the most important point. It would also weed out legal actions that are fishing for money instead of helping victims and helping create a better future. Most importantly, it would let BSA national continue to survive so that locally scouting units and councils have a coordinated program.

The more I think about this ... the more I'd 100% support Philmont National Park created to be used by youth organizations throughout the nation. It matches many of the core goals of scouting and at the same time preserves a real national treasure. If Summit is not reserved via the recent donation, I'd 100% hope we could have the Summit National Park.

Your anger is understandable. People have to put their anger somewhere. Statistically, scouts is not that much different than other organizations. We've been thru this. I don't see the 1000 reference you are producing and don't accept the premise. You say 1000. So high school sports has 17,.000 over four years. That's over 4,000 per year in high school sports. Perhaps it is best for kids to stay home and do nothing.

It's a bankruptcy. A demarcation line. Liabilities before bankruptcy would be gone. There would be no compensation for victims of 2010-2020 abuse. For BSA to keep a fund, BSA would need to acknowledge a continued liability for debts previous to the bankruptcy. If funds need to be reserved, it would need to come from the current pending settlement reducing payments for the currently listed victims.

The cheap, quick and reliable background check is a very recent concept ... 2003 ??? Before that, it was fairly labor intensive and costly. And yes, it would have been very hard for an organization to know if it was the same person again.

Your right. It can't be avoided. It's shameful and disgusting, but it can't be avoided. People want to blame someone for larger failures and the actions of a specific person. ... My actual view is it's about deep pockets and lawyers going after dollars to fund their lifestyles.

I think that's a great example ... So the CO employees gave your troop a key to go into their private building where they had direct ownership and insured it recognizing their liability for problems that happened there (fire, physicals injury, etc) ... but took no responsibility to keep you safe? Even in the 1970s, if someone fell on my sidewalk because of ice, I'd be liable. It's a direct connection. So law enforcement was called too. Did anything result? Was the person charged with a crime? I suspect your experience was probably more successful than what others experienced in the 1970s / 1980s.

It's the same argument we see all the time Defund the police because of police abuse. We improve oversight and promote cameras. End football because of the number of players that die or are crippled for life. Okay we get helmets, protection pads and concussion protocols. Stop selling ibuprofen OTC because it can be used to make meth and meth destroys thousands of lives We recognize the good that things do and at the same time work to improve putting structures in place to mitigate the problems.

Don't discredit a valid argument. The immediate actions were crimes. The extending liability to the larger organization may or may not have have been established cased law. Extending treating "volunteers" as legal agents of the larger organization is something relatively new too. More definitely, mandatory reporting laws did not exist back then. When incidents happened, in almost every case I saw there were discussions on how it should be handled. Many, many times involving the parents. Often other volunteer leaders too. If the parents knew ... why did they not call the police ! If other parents knew, why did they not call the police ! Other times, police or other groups were involved too and still nothing happened. So now we are blaming legally someone who was not legally responsible to escalate and ignoring multiple levels of those directly connected. I don't see anyone saying BSA should be proud. I'm saying don't cast the stone unless you are free of guilt.

I agree. This is not theory. You were failed by church, schools, law enforcement, family, society, medical profession, etc. This stuff wasn't unknown. It's not about a theoretical failure. If you apply a measure of distance (interaction with the people), who's actually to blame. The "volunteer" SM committed the offense. He's the direct responsible person. The other "volunteer" leaders in the unit are the 2nd level. The church that sponsored your unit is then the next level. You physically met there. Their "employees" probably had a closer connection. Parents who suspected and dropped their own kids off. Local law enforcement. etc. This is not theory. Guilt is far and wide on this. Pretending BSA is uniquely at fault is shameful. I have a friend who's dad was as medical doctor. When someone got injured on the sports field, the last thing he wanted was for his son to point out his dad was a doctor because it created liability. That's what's happening with BSA. Huge holes throughout society. BSA tried to put protections in place and it is coming back to haunt them. BSA tried to do drive a mission that has a massively huge good is now erased because society has never handled abuse like this well.

And society has someone to blame for what is pretty much a society wide issue. It's about blame and labeling a group while pretending everyone else is better. Shame. It's a modern day bigotry and hatred.

That is a mix of truth. When you add "monthly", then yes. Remove monthly and keep un-related adults, remote locations, without cameras, without public supervision, overnights and now BSA is common with most youth serving organizations. Each organization has it's risk in different areas. Camps - Almost every youth servicing organization encourages one or more camps per year (YMCA, 4-H, girl camps, etc). Private times - most organizations have similar quantities of opportunities.

Same behaviors exist in many organizations. Sports. Church youth groups. And in 4-H. Maybe 4-H is truly special. I'm not a 4-H expert. But then again, you can find incidents as you indicated earlier. https://www.deseret.com/2007/7/4/20028174/4-h-leader-in-tooele-is-charged-with-child-sex-abuse https://www.cbsnews.com/news/abuse-charged-at-4-h-summer-camp/ I am creeped out with several 4-H YP postings that emphasize volunteers are not mandatory reporters ... in their area. States are inconsistent with rules. I'm just surprised 4-H did not say all 4-H volunteers will act as mandatory reporters and MUST report. Others documents use the words "can" and "should" instead of must. https://www.udel.edu/content/dam/udelImages/canr/pdfs/extension/4H/club-management/Child-Abuse-Neglect.pdf https://www.extension.iastate.edu/4h/files/page/files/Child Abuse Awareness and Reporting (2).pdf https://www.clemson.edu/extension/newberry/4h/files/volunteer-files/Vol_Handbook 18-19.pdf Failure to recognize this as a broad society based issue is the real risk to kids. Putting it on BSA is less about protecting kids and more about finding someone to blame.

Yeah. That was standard of care back in the 1970s and probably even sometime into the 1980s. People sitting loose in the back of trucks. Station wagons with kids sitting in back (without the rear chairs). No requirement for seat belts.

Can you provide reference to CDC recommendation?

Yeah. I'd be surprised if 4H is statistically different than BSA. Lots of youth. Lots of private opportunities. If 4H is perceived to be significantly different, I'd want to ask why? More women leaders than men? (real difference) ... Not tracking such information (data management) ... Left it to the public community to track / handle (not a real difference) Right now I'm leaning to say 4-H did it better by not handling it and just letting it go to an outside organization. The major part of this situation is BSA is tracking the ineligible volunteers. It could be viewed as added value, but right now it is a legal night mare. BSA would have been better off to let everything go external at the direction of parents and other volunteers. We're talking problems that were crimes or after the fact became crimes. We're talking problems where leaders recently became mandatory reporters but often were not at the time of the incident. BSA tracking incidents adds a gold mine to fish decades later for legal opportunities to exploit. I just don't accept that BSA was statistically that different than other organizations.

Sadly, the IV files represented a best effort and a huge legal liability. So the legal risk almost dictates not maintaining those files. That happens in other industries too. Best current example are corporations that force relatively short email retention periods as standard policy that is hard to circumvent. I don't agree on BSA losing it's soul. The numbers are huge, but so is youth membership. I suspect BSAs numbers are parallel to other youth serving organizations.

I do think the age 40s age transition is changing, but I recognize the stigma is still there. What I meant more was ... if I remember reading your story ... there were other leaders that suspected problems ... there were other parents that were concerned but protected their own kids ... from what I've learned from multiple organizations ... this is common. There is an inertia to not raise a flag that needs to be overcome. It did not happen. That's extremely sad and continued the damage. .... I think of the Weinstein cases ... dozens of people could have reported, but then put their own success and status at risk. Thus allowing dozens more be victimized. What I was referring to was that BSA adopted background checks and notified you. I would be surprised if BSA's legal experts kept detailed files. Maybe the files were purged. I'm surprised the files were not purged far earlier. Most companies do purge such records to prevent those from being used as evidence in future fishing.

Interesting point. I think I've heard about that once before, but I don't remember all the details.

Sadly, that's probably the right course. You were notified. It should have gone to law enforcement at the time of the incident too. By fellow leaders. By your family. By someone. I know there is a huge problem getting anyone even on the peripheral to report. It's the nature of "oh, that person can't be that bad" or "I don't want to be involved" .or "I'm not sure". ... Someone ... one of many ... should have reported it to the law. But once SOLs have lapsed and people have moved on, any organization worth it's salt should purge old records.

I do agree. An adult saying to a youth to stay in for Eagle ... it's just hot air and too far away to have context. Our troop succeeded when the SM/SPL would talk about the troops activities and opportunities. Unspoken was the SPL and another senior scout who were wearing their full uniform, sharp and crisp. I'm absolutely sure those young kids looked up to those scouts and wanted to be like them. BSA really needs to get back to roots. Kids want to have adventures with their friends. Deliver on that promise.

Reading this thread. Scouting has followed society. Grate inflation distorting GPAs ACTs/SATs now being de-valued because of families gaming the system with practice tests and test tutors. Far easier now to write a paper than back in the 1970s with a type-writer or pen and paper. No trips to the library No white out No re-write the page because of writing mistakes. Grade inflation for me when I was a kid was with lettering. I lettered 7 or 8 times because each extra-curricular program I was in established it's own "lettering" standards. Gaming the system has been around for decades. Race To Nowhere documentation is an interesting. I need to watch.

I hugely agree on this. Several of my sons have incredible stories of fellowship, problem solving, huge work ethics, adventures that are truly meaningful. I'm significantly involved in the local Eagle processes, but at the same time I see little value in Eagle if the scout does not have a strong network of scouts ... if the scout has not had adventures ... if the scout has not pushed the boundaries of fear and being uncomfortable.

I can see that. Professors promoting hate and bigotry by accusing other groups as hateful.