fred8033

You should not disparage the character of individuals so soon after saying we are accusing others. It's probably fair game if he's viewing this from the side lines.

We are not accusing specific individuals. It's the whole situation. Anyone can feel emotionally connected and work their hearts out for $1000 per hour. How about doing it for $100 per hour? Ya definitely won't starve at that rate? It's emotional for me because my sons worked as camp staff. I think of their hard work ... often working wake-up to bed-time for minimum wage, effectively $4 per hour. Or the lower level scouting staff that earns a fraction of their value. ... OR ... The millions of BSA adult volunteers over the years that have not been paid and instead paid thousands to volunteer. ... Think of it ... High point of membership was 7,000,000 youth (or so). Over 100 years, say average one million new scouts per year. Take 25% of that as registered adult leaders. That's 25 million adult volunteers that worked for free. ... CORRECTION ... that paid to volunteer and then paid again all their own expenses. Now, consider the morality of billing $1000 per hour and convincing people you are driven by the wrongs done in the past.

Absolutely agree. The law can absolutely be a noble profession and extremely hard. And some lawyers are absolutely just charging large sums when their clients can afford it and their clients agree. I'm really not thinking this is the BSA situation though. There is something completely immoral about this.

Great quote ... “All of us have discounted our rates on these cases because, if all the money goes to the lawyers, there’s not going to be anything left for survivors,” said Susan Boswell, an Arizona bankruptcy attorney who has worked on several abuse cases involving the Catholic Church in which she has dropped her hourly rate — normally $700 — to as low as $450, she said." Still immoral if it's only half as immoral. Index the "discounted" maximum rate to 10 times minimum wage. I just have trouble calling $450 per hour "discounted".

It's a partnership. A&B in business together. A can't ditch B without recompense, but if B fails, that does not mean A is forced to go down with the ship. A can find ways to survive and continue. If anything, A has a claim against B for impact to A's business. Perhaps the LCs should counter sue in bankruptcy for business impact due to BSA's legal issues. If BSA goes out of business, LCs should sue for legal rights to the intellectual property they have depended on. That seems fair.

It's called a "kick-back". Choose us to be your lawyers and we will give you 10% of our fees. ... Of course, we'll make sure our fee is at least 20% higher than other clients. Thus, you both get richer thru the kickback. We had a local place give a box of stakes if you chose them to replace your car's windshield. Very popular place ... until the insurance companies succeeded pointing out they were being billed well above the value of the stakes. I think courts got involved and agreed that the insurance company did not need to pay.

Simple fact is local charters can function without BSA. They can keep using the same program. Slightly change. Or offer a more general youth oriented, outdoor leadership experience program. Councils can keep serving the "scouting purpose" relatively easily without BSA national.

I accidentally tripped into a billing. I should have figured all the groups legal fees would be visible. Here is a TCC vendor bill. https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/884358_2487.pdf Many more "Fee Applications" can be found by typing "fee application" into this web site: https://cases.omniagentsolutions.com/documents?clientid=CsgAAncz%2B6Yclmvv9%2Fq5CGybTGevZSjdVimQq9zQutqmTPHesk4PZDyfOOLxIiIwZjXomPlMZCo%3D&tagid=1153

Claimant fees are racking up at similar rates. The motion document also quotes "TCC professionals are charging the estate similarly high rates, with eight lawyers from the TCC’s lead law firm billing at over $1,000/hour in January 2021, for example." ... How many law firms and lawyers are representing the claimants? I'm not sure if claimants lawyers get paid every three months like BSA's lawyers or have to wait for a final settlement. I'm just saying legal fees of both sides are arrogantly huge.

Motion 3161 ... https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/202c0596-1e8e-464c-989b-4c661794580c_3161.pdf So ... For those saying "their" lawyer is doing this from the good of their heart? Mar 2020: 32 professionals * 175 hours * 1000 = $5.6 million. I'm sure some are less than full time. I'm sure some are more than full time. I'm sure some are way about $1000. And some are just trying to put bread on their families table at $350 an hour. The below table itself represents probably $50+ million in fees. Probably far more. There is only one set of individuals that will be well compensated in this suit.

Exactly. Playing both sides of an argument only creates a mess and does not help. I learned a long time ago that at some point you need to find a path thru the mess. But playing two contradicting sides is not viable.

#1 legally separate ... That then is TCC treating LCs as legally separate ... OR ... TCC is extracting value from a BSA during bankruptcy and running amok the priority of other debtors and the judge overseeing the case. So are LCs separate legally such that TCC can extract funds directly? Or if liable for BSA national, then the funds are subject to bankruptcy distribution and TCC needs to wait for the bankruptcy proceedings. #2 revoking charter ... Not clear cut at all. The by-laws include the words of "constructive trust" and for the purposes of scouting. And, address the case where a (business partner) council is not doing it's job or a council that is not viable. Councils that are financially healthy and doing a good job can argue that the bylaws do not address this case where BSA goes out of business but the councils can still execute on the purposes of scouting as many councils will be able to do. ... This seems to fall into case law on business partnerships or business franchise rights. ... I'm not sure, but I am sure that it's just not that clear cut at all.

Per TCC talking directly with LCs as evidence of being legally separate But then the reality of the efforts between the LCs and TCC recently show the opposite. I've been reading comments about last TCC mtg and other TCC activities. About last meeting, attendance was huge and suggested that hat people should ask their scout exec or council president attended. Further, the TCC inviting (the invite itself) shows a direct communication approach. Another comment in this thread said that TCC was open to direct communication with any LC.

We've debated till our faces are blue about BSA being at fault for past abuses. Sadly, we're of different opinion here too. I can't blame BSA causing further harm by legally pursing bankruptcy. Society is foolish to think that revisiting these sins of the past ever heals the present. Even more foolish to think that any financial compensation corrects for damages. Blame the legislatures who extended liability from decades ago. Blame advocates who think that's a good idea to muck rake the past. Blame lawyers chasing ambulances. Blame empty promises saying you will get significantly compensated. Sadly, BSA is just taking the best legal course in a very ugly situation. Sadly, some will get extremely rich based on this, but it won't be the victims. Even then, there are so many lawyers now involved I fear the individual lawyer award for most lawyers will only be several million. A few head partners and equity owners will earn tens of millions or more. The real profit will be in showing the highest legal expenses (after markup) and getting directly paid those expenses separate than a share of the summary award. I remember the months of TV infomercials about abuse. Every time I saw on run, I was thinking about the airtime in the markets. Those infomercials had to cost tens of millions to run. ( many markets, many channels, etc) ... Someone had to finance these. To get financing, they had to be darn sure there would be a big pay day. ... When that happens, you can be darn sure someone has a financial motivation. It's not oout of the good of their heart. I have a friend that always says to watch out for anything free because free will surely cost you a lot. I'd say the same is true here. Watch out for anyone that says you will be significantly compensated. People don't do that unless they are going to get rich doing it.

Dumb question ... By the TCC inviting the LCs directly and beginning direct discussions with LCs, isn't that TCC effectively acknowledging the LCs as separate entities ? ... incorporated separately ... paying taxes separately ... owning property separately ... now beginning to negotiate with TCC separately? Further, doesn't it create evidence that BSA doesn't control the council leadership? (presidents, scout execs, etc?) ... council leaders negotiating directly with TCC ... choosing to opt in or opt out of a larger settlement ... That lack of control is further evidence that councils are separate legal entities. TCC direct negotiations with councils subverts the claim that councils are liable in a BSA national bankruptcy. Sure councils can be individual liable and sued individually, but I don't see how TCC talking to councils directly helps in a larger settlement of the BSA national bankruptcy.

Scouting is not a bargain. Worth the value when done right, but often over promising, under delivering and at cost. I'm betting there were multiple years where we spent $500 per month on average. Four summer camps + being a leader and usually at the camps + plus often an extra week of summer camp for multiple kids + one high adventure base per kid + monthly camp outs + activities + extra costs + leader costs + gas + equipment. It really adds up. My sons and I definitely benefited from scouting, but it was not a bargain. We could have done much more as a family (money and time). But then again, you do need to spend your time somewhere and Iike the outdoor and adventure aspect.

The following 2016 thesis submittal is really interesting. Interesting comments based on (starting page 28) Theissen polygon analysis of scouting membership data. Interesting figures start on page 28+. https://kuscholarworks.ku.edu/bitstream/handle/1808/24173/Hubbard_ku_0099M_15024_DATA_1.pdf?sequence=1 Obviously a pro-scouter. One sentence near the end is interesting and timely. "Scouting is not for everybody but for those who are active, the chief lessons are not discrimination, blind patriotism, or xenophobia; takeaways are self-reliance, critical thinking, the value of community, hard work, and determination."

I wish that was the same for all the programs. I know materials have been moving that direction, but I'll be glad to see more and more move that direction.

Less forth coming? Every CO and school I've known has had issues. Few get front page coverage. Few get public announcements to solicit other victims or find the larger scope. The issues I've learned about from long ago are dead on same as BSA. Hesitation to accuse someone with good standing. People shuffled. Often police not involved. This is more about having a tracking record system where others obscured their records, intentionally or not intentionally ... or just did not track at all.

Several topics here. CO shopping. BSA subverting CO ownership. CO liability . My comment was about CO liability ... Their liability seems similar to BSA. Every CO every year signed paperwork documenting their responsibility such as selecting and vouching for leaders. The CO effectively signed every adult leadership application thru their CO or the CO's designate. ... If BSA is being held liable for what happened years ago when times were different, COs seem to be in the same basis. ... COs (pastors, youth ministers, etc) have always known that these things happen. Heck, my wife and I come from different faiths and she told me the stories of youth enamored with the young pastors and the trouble that happened sometimes. It was completely alien to me as I am Catholic and we never had youth pastors, etc.

I agree ... if they accept members of other faiths and churches, they need to be open to members exercising their faith. At the same time, the CO absolutely has the right to reserve the membership to youth and leaders from their own CO. Then by doing so, it can be a religious extension of the church. But if they accept members from outside their CO, then they need to be sensitive to other faiths and values.

Celebrate that the bear scout got to have a good experience. Hopefully it creates excitement to continue in scouting. Minimize the negative rules. It burns bridges and destroys future friendships. ... I'd ask this ... What is your concern that you are looking for a rule? I'm one that always leans toward following the rules. But rules are usually there for a reason. Avoid harm. Be safe. etc. ... So, is there a concern? Other cubs will want to go? Scout will get experiences out of sequence? Forget about the pack?

Why would they not share liability? They directly know (or should know) the people face-to-face and have people on-premise. They directly sign a statement they are vouching for the people involved. My view is the current situation is rather unfair to BSA. So, I only am less sympathetic to COs because of how unfair things are to BSA. I know multiple COs where youth pastors and volunteer leaders have gotten into trouble. ... So, if the argument extends to BSA ... it should extend to the COs too. Personally, reaching back decades on this stuff before the nation understood abuse and legal liabilities evolved is ridiculous. ... but that's a different discussion thread. Best left in that thread..

Great topic ! We've discussed this a bit and we're looking to switch to the new approach of a council chartered unit by a "group of citizens". At the same time, we're hoping our current CO still lets us use their space on a priority basis. I really don't think the CO sees a difference as they've never actively overseen the troop. It's more a liability issue. At the same time, your criteria is a good starting point. Much of the criteria is similar to choosing a scoutmaster. .... "Does he have a truck that can pull the troop trailer? Yes. Great. Then he's the scoutmaster."

Ok. I'll take birds, pontoons, etc. My personal NO is excess mice. They will always exist, but the tiny little bears do damage, get in tents and spread disease. Our troop once camped in and around a historic cabin ... read as old, creaky, broken down etc ... we could not sleep well because all night mouse traps would snap. The next day the victims were disposed and the traps reset. ... The place was really cool and very special ... and we chose not to return.